TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,857
Reactions
6 18,707
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey
Turkey back in the program is a good thing for everyone. The JSF now becomes a lot cheaper. Thx guys.🇹🇷

Turkey is still making parts and the F35 is still not cheap.

Im not really against the F35 dont mind having small batches of it especially the F35B.

F35 is one of the nost expensive military programs of all time still shows no signs of being 100% operational not to mention its plagued with software problems.
 

reashot_xigwin

Active member
Messages
89
Reactions
93
Nation of residence
Vanuatu
Nation of origin
Vanuatu
Turkey is still making parts and the F35 is still not cheap.

Im not really against the F35 dont mind having small batches of it especially the F35B.

F35 is one of the nost expensive military programs of all time still shows no signs of being 100% operational not to mention its plagued with software problems.
Another reason its not cheap is supply and demand.

Everybody and their grandmother wanted the F-35 to the point the order takes decades to fill.

You need to bring in more partners to solves this issues I'm afraid.

Also the F-35 is already in service and operational and so far there hasn't been any serious complaint from the end users.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davede...hild-or-on-track-for-success/?sh=79773f8e15d1

The software problems is no longer an issues. This is why Pierre Sprey is a douche.
 

schuimpjes

Experienced member
Messages
2,522
Reactions
3 1,573
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
F35 is one of the nost expensive military programs of all time still shows no signs of being 100% operational not to mention its plagued with software problems.
Whatever you like it or not, but Erdogan even using lobbyists to get this very jet.
 

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,857
Reactions
6 18,707
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey
Whatever you like it or not, but Erdogan even using lobbyists to get this very jet.

Actually a law firm not a lobbysist more like getting the money back from the Americans for taking our planes away.

S400 is just an excuse the Americans find some other excuse to kick us out of the F35 program.
 

schuimpjes

Experienced member
Messages
2,522
Reactions
3 1,573
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
Actually a law firm not a lobbysist more like getting the money back from the Americans for taking our planes away.

S400 is just an excuse the Americans find some other excuse to kick us out of the F35 program.
Ah... Ok ok. S-400 is a better weapon than F-35.
 

Zafer

Experienced member
Messages
4,683
Reactions
7 7,389
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey

The U.S. Air Force Just Admitted The F-35 Stealth Fighter Has Failed​


The U.S. Air Force’s top officer wants the service to develop an affordable, lightweight fighter to replace hundreds of Cold War-vintage F-16s and complement a small fleet of sophisticated—but costly and unreliable—stealth fighters.

The result would be a high-low mix of expensive “fifth-generation” F-22s and F-35s and inexpensive “fifth-generation-minus” jets, explained Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Brown Jr.

If that plan sounds familiar, it’s because the Air Force a generation ago launched development of an affordable, lightweight fighter to replace hundreds of Cold War-vintage F-16s and complement a small future fleet of sophisticated—but costly and unreliable—stealth fighters.

But over 20 years of R&D, that lightweight replacement fighter got heavier and more expensive as the Air Force and lead contractor Lockheed Martin LMT +1.7% packed it with more and more new technology.

Yes, we’re talking about the F-35. The 25-ton stealth warplane has become the very problem it was supposed to solve. And now America needs a new fighter to solve that F-35 problem, officials said.

With a sticker price of around $100 million per plane, including the engine, the F-35 is expensive. While stealthy and brimming with high-tech sensors, it’s also maintenance-intensive, buggy and unreliable. “The F-35 is not a low-cost, lightweight fighter,” said Dan Ward, a former Air Force program manager and the author of popular business books including The Simplicity Cycle.

The F-35 is a Ferrari, Brown told reporters last Wednesday. “You don’t drive your Ferrari to work every day, you only drive it on Sundays. This is our ‘high end’ [fighter], we want to make sure we don’t use it all for the low-end fight.”

“I want to moderate how much we’re using those aircraft,” Brown said.

Hence the need for a new low-end fighter to pick up the slack in day-to-day operations. Today, the Air Force’s roughly 1,000 F-16s meet that need. But the flying branch hasn’t bought a new F-16 from Lockheed since 2001. The F-16s are old.

In his last interview before leaving his post in January, Will Roper, the Air Force’s top acquisition official, floated the idea of new F-16 orders. But Brown shot down the idea, saying he doesn’t want more of the classic planes.

The 17-ton, non-stealthy F-16 is too difficult to upgrade with the latest software, Brown explained. Instead of ordering fresh F-16s, he said, the Air Force should initiate a “clean-sheet design” for a new low-end fighter.

Brown’s comments are a tacit admission that the F-35 has failed. As conceived in the 1990s, the program was supposed to produce thousands of fighters to displace almost all of the existing tactical warplanes in the inventories of the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps.

The Air Force alone wanted nearly 1,800 F-35s to replace aging F-16s and A-10s and constitute the low end of a low-high fighter mix, with 180 twin-engine F-22s making up the high end.

But the Air Force and Lockheed baked failure into the F-35’s very concept. “They tried to make the F-35 do too much,” said Dan Grazier, an analyst with the Project on Government Oversight in Washington, D.C.

There’s a small-wing version for land-based operations, a big-wing version for the Navy’s catapult-equipped aircraft carriers and, for the small-deck assault ships the Marines ride in, a vertical-landing model with a downward-blasting lift engine.

The complexity added cost. Rising costs imposed delays. Delays gave developers more time to add yet more complexity to the design. Those additions added more cost. Those costs resulted in more delays. So on and so forth.

Fifteen years after the F-35’s first flight, the Air Force has just 250 of the jets. Now the service is signaling possible cuts to the program. It’s not for no reason that Brown has begun characterizing the F-35 as a boutique, high-end fighter in the class of the F-22. The Air Force ended F-22 production after completing just 195 copies.

“The F-35 is approaching a crossroads,” Grazier said.

Pentagon leaders have hinted that, as part of the U.S. military’s shift in focus toward peer threats—that is, Russia and China—the Navy and Air Force might get bigger shares of the U.S. military’s roughly $700-billion annual budget. All at the Army’s expense.

“If we’re going to pull the trigger on a new fighter, now’s probably the time,” Grazier said. The Air Force could end F-35 production after just a few hundred examples and redirect tens of billions of dollars to a new fighter program.

But it’s an open question whether the Air Force will ever succeed in developing a light, cheap fighter. The new low-end jet could suffer the same fate as the last low-end jet—the F-35—and steadily gain weight, complexity and cost until it becomes, well, a high-end jet.

If that happens, as it’s happened before, then some future Air Force chief of staff might tell reporters—in, say, the year 2041—that the new F-36 is a Ferrari and you don’t drive your Ferrari to work every day.

To finally replace its 60-year-old F-16s, this future general might say, the Air Force should develop an affordable, lightweight fighter.

The bottom line is that the US has buried the F-35 program "in history".

Watch out, folks. You are now witnessing a historical moment.
@Cabatli_53 @Test7 @Combat-Master @Madokafc @Zafer @anmdt @Kartal1 @Nein2.0
I have lost hope, gave up on and ditched the F35 long time ago.
We can only use our own make weapon systems going forward.

Hürjet (rolls out this year)
TFX in several incarnations
TFX single engine in several incarnations
T6X (6th gen fighter, I propose) and varieties

Can phase out all foreign fighter assets of Turkish military
It is a good time to be an engineer
 
Last edited:

Foulgrim

Well-known member
Moderator
Greece Moderator
Messages
365
Reactions
1 628
Nation of residence
Greece
Nation of origin
Greece
For me, the F-35 program is a complete failure because in the long run no country will be able to have them in the air for a long time since the cost is too high. From this point of view, the US F-16s will need another fighter aircraft to replace them. Many countries of the world have bought this fighter aircraft but at the same time they are developing their own! Turkish company SSTEK (100% owned by SSB) secured the Arnold & Porter law firm with a $ 750,000 contract for 6 months. The American company will advise SSB and the Turkish partners of the production program of the F-35 fighters on how to stay in it. They will also take into account the complex geopolitical and trade parameters they will have to face. The contract states that the company will constantly monitor and analyze the sanctions imposed on Turkey, while approaching Turkey's trading partners in the production of fighters. To me, this approach from Turkey is more of a trick than a substantial attempt to return it to the F-35 program. Turkey saves time and money in this way. What Turkey wants is to stop the US CAATSA law and force the Americans to pay compensation to Turkey for the development of the F-35 and the initial purchase of 30 fighters (out of the 120 in total they wanted to receive). With these pressures, the Turks will save time while ensuring that TAI will continue to have a factory for the production of F-35 parts. Turkey no longer wants or needs the F-35s as it is at such a point that the fifth generation fighter can build it itself. According to Ismail Demir in 5-6 years from now (2026-2027) the TAI-TFX will be operational while on March 18, 2023 it will leave the hangar. If in a magical way the F-35s were given by the USA to Turkey, they would be received in 1-2 years, it would be better for Turkey to wait to build its own fighter than to succumb to US pressure. If the US is smart (Lockheed Martin is already losing a lot of money) and does not want to lose 120 fighter jets (worth $ 9.5 billion) then they should look at things differently. For the S-400 Triumf, a good solution would be to move to Libya under Turkish-Libyan rule, nor would Russia have a problem with that. In any case, Turkey has already received the transfer of know-how from the S-400 Triumf for the anti-ballistic / anti-aircraft system HİSAR-U (SIPER) which will logically enter service in 2024.
 
S

Sinan

Guest
In Turkish, i recommend everyone to watch it, he literally answers all our F-35 questions.
I come to this thread for posting this video.

I would like to hear more about the solution. He said, "We need to develope TF-X" and no more details. Wish he had detailed the reasons for TF-X.
 

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,857
Reactions
6 18,707
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey
I come to this thread for posting this video.

I would like to hear more about the solution. He said, "We need to develope TF-X" and no more details. Wish he had detailed the reasons for TF-X.

Honestly the F35B can fill the role of the Turkish airforce and the navy pretty well.

Hence why im not fully against the F35 having elite specialised fighter will do wonders for the armed forces.
 

Kartal1

Experienced member
Lead Moderator
Messages
5,221
Reactions
106 19,424
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
Honestly the F35B can fill the role of the Turkish airforce and the navy pretty well.

Hence why im not fully against the F35 having elite specialised fighter will do wonders for the armed forces.
The problem with F-35 for Turkey is it's not solely a technological/technical military project. F-35 is much more than that. F-35 is a project establishing a high technological joint military platform of many States (mainly NATO) with its brain in the USA.
The F-35 (and the whole Joint Strike Fighter concept) will be valuable for countries with a stable geopolitical orientation ready to play a positive role against the Eastern block. The project is absolutely against Turkey's position and national interest as a concept.

Turkey could have a very good use for the F-35s when it comes to threats coming from Russia, Iran, Syria or even Iraq but what would happen if for example Turkey and Greece enters open confrontation in the Mediterranean or the Aegean Sea is a question with known answer. With the current position of Turkey regarding the regional problems and their solutions I don't expect the US to support us on these critical matters nor I support a delivery by the US of such binding equipment to Turkey. We must firstly find solutions to problems like the YPG, Mediterranean, Aegean problems and not on the last place a lasting two State solution for Palestine excluding terrorist elements like Hamas and Fatah. If those problems are resolved I see nothing wrong with the acquisition of that equipment.

F-35 is a project strengthening the military alliance between Western oriented countries and also their vassals. The name of the whole project is stating that fact openly. F-35 as joint strike concept is very different to what we see in other 5th Generation fighter jet projects. It haves a heavily centralized operation system no matter if the responsibilities and task sharing in its developers and also members of the project is made in such way that the maintenance, manufacturing and also ammunition supply process looks like a decentralized system with different tasks shared between the project members. The US can prevent that beauty from operation probably within minutes and they can blame the software after that with the Pentagon saying "F-35 is a very bad plane not answering to all our needs but the US Airforce will operate them in thousands and Israel plans to acquire even more wink wink". F-35 is not made for the Turkey of today. Maybe the Royal Airforce, Israel, Norway and the US but not for the Turkey of today.
 

Bogeyman 

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
9,192
Reactions
67 31,255
Website
twitter.com
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey

U.S. Navy Air Power Can’t Survive Without the F/A-18 Super Hornet​


Policymakers are currently deciding the future of America’s aerial defense capabilities. As military leaders and members of Congress chart a path forward, they’re faced with challenging decisions about which capabilities to invest in considering the limited resources available to be allocated to air power. The U.S. Navy, in particular, is in need of capable, battle-ready aircraft. That’s why as our leaders weigh aircraft options that satisfy current and future needs, they must include the F/A-18 Block III Super Hornet.

The F/A-18 Block III Super Hornet is a highly capable fighter with several important upgrades that complement the Navy’s newer fighter, the F-35C, but without excessive production, procurement, and maintenance costs. It comes with increased computing power and communications systems that will allow it to speak with future manned and unmanned aircraft along with a digitized advanced cockpit system. The new Block III Super Hornet also comes with a passive detection and tracking system with the ability to track stealthy targets at longer distances and a service life that will be extended by 40 percent.


One of the major advantages that the F/A-18 provides to the Navy is its dual engines. It’s a safety feature that shouldn’t be overlooked. It’s not unheard of for an engine to be lost in combat. In 1991, a Marine F/A-18D successfully completed its mission and made an uneventful landing on a single engine after having to shut the second one down when it was hit by an Iraqi surface-to-air missile. The dual-engine capability is a lifesaver.

The uncertain landscape of future battlegrounds must be taken into account when investing in defense programs. Another practical one is diversity. No winning basketball team starts five shooting guards and no football team starts 11 quarterbacks. The reason is obvious. It takes different skills and different capabilities to win. The same is true for our defense strategy, making it necessary for naval and congressional leaders to invest in a diverse fleet of military aircraft.


Despite challenges, including historically inconsistent sustainment funding and a high “pace of operations” that have increased the wear and tear on the F/A-18, the Super Hornet has been the only naval aviation program to successfully meet the objective of 80 percent readiness. Quite an achievement in comparison to some of its peers.

When it comes to battle readiness, cost-effective procurement, and sustainability, there is no substitute for the F/A-18 Super Hornet. It is an essential aircraft for the Navy and a necessary component to our nation’s overall national security. Measured by how much it costs to operate, a new Block III Super Hornet is estimated at $19,000—far more affordable than other aircraft in the fleet, which is important considering the fleet continues to operate above expected levels.

Without the procurement of additional Super Hornets, the Navy risks having only one defense manufacturer with the ability to build fighters before the Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) platform is secured, which could take more than ten years. I don’t think I’m the only one who shudders at the thought considering the growing and increased capabilities of our near-peer adversaries.

A diverse, complementary fighter fleet is the key to air superiority. The F-35 plays an important role in this effort but naval and congressional leaders cannot rely on it alone. The F/A-18 Block III Super Hornet must be part of our current fleet, as well as the next generation of air defense in order to achieve mission readiness and national security.

John Zitnick served 4 years in the U.S. Air Force during Vietnam before beginning his nearly 35-year career on the F-18 program with McDonnell Douglas as a Flight Test Instrumentation engineer at Patuxent River Naval Air Station. He continued working on the program in St. Louis, MO before returning to Patuxent River in 1994 as the instrument department head. He was then assigned as Instrumentation Lead for the F-18E/F program weapon separation team. Over the next 21 years, John worked on numerous testing programs for the E/F program, including the first F-18G sea trials on a U.S. Naval Carrier. John was also involved with Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System qualification for the F-18G at Lakehurst Naval Air Station and integration of the new electronic jamming pod for the F-18G.
 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,632
Reactions
37 19,741
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
You know it’s like the story of sovjet super advanced tank over again which is why T72 was made super cheap.

I would dare say F35 is too good and expensive. But tech level makes it too dangerous to export. Even the export version.

If the vtol part could be applied to a new version of F16, that in itself would make F16 much more wanted, but te price would probably jump to 80-90 mio usd or so. (Assuming it costs 60+ mio)

 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,632
Reactions
37 19,741
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
I come to this thread for posting this video.

I would like to hear more about the solution. He said, "We need to develope TF-X" and no more details. Wish he had detailed the reasons for TF-X.

In previous interviews before 2020 he did some explanation to TFX program. I don’t recall it all, but I think the TFX was on the board in 90’s but with all the issues and problems and infrastructure needs it didn’t move ahead much.

As I recall He even said our current air force would make do with what we have but we needed the to move forward and get those planes at latest 2030-2035.

Imo we need to build hurjet like 80 or more and use them actively and learn. I am not satisfied with 1-10 pieces for testing.
 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,632
Reactions
37 19,741
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey

Bogeyman 

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
9,192
Reactions
67 31,255
Website
twitter.com
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
EvjUH2YXYAYf08U


According to the F-35 program office, the F-35 fighter could go into operation for a maximum of 1 month without contacting ALIS (i.e. without sending feedback to Lockheed Martin). We also saw this. Page 10

The Operational Data Integrated Network ODIN, which replaced the ALIS Autonomous Logistics Information System in the F-35 warplanes, performed its first flights on a fleet of F-35B fighter aircraft affiliated with the American Marine Corps. (10.09.2020)

EvjW2d-XUAgWC4n


However, the 2020 annual report of the Pentagon's testing and evaluation office explains that it is still not creating a testing strategy for ODIN to continue laboratory testing. Page 36

By the way, ODIN wouldn't be fully operational before 2022.

EvjX2sMWgAEbA5F


On the same page, the Pentagon's testing and evaluation office implicitly acknowledges that the F-35's logistic support systems (that is, they mean ALIS) have been hacked. It is still said that cyber weaknesses cannot be completely closed.

In short, there is no alternative for ALIS in the short term.
The F-35 cannot fly for more than a month without communicating with Lockheed Martin.
Cyber vulnerabilities are still not resolved.
 

Glass🚬

Contributor
Messages
1,388
Reactions
2 3,159
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey

Uh.. sounds much better :)

Indeed 🚬

--

After 20 Years, The F-35 Stealth Fighter Is Still Stuck In Testing​



uncaptioned

An F-35 assigned to the 6th Weapons Squadron takes off for a training mission at Nellis Air Force ... [+]
U.S. AIR FORCE PHOTO BY WILLIAM R. LEWIS
U.S. Air Force leaders in early 2021 all but admitted what critics have been saying for many years—the $100-million F-35 stealth fighter that Lockheed Martin LMT +1.5% is building for the service is too expensive and unreliable for hard, day-to-day use.
After 20 years of tortured development, the stealth fighter’s problems have gotten so bad that some officials have floated the idea of launching a new program to build a cheaper, more reliable fighter—one that finally might replace the Air Force’s roughly 1,000 old F-16s.
After all, it’s increasingly apparent the F-35 will never be as affordable and flyable as the stalwart F-16 is.
Just how big of a mess is the F-35? Dan Grazier, an analyst with the Washington, D.C.-based Project on Government Oversight, closely read the U.S. Defense Department’s latest weapons-testing report and came to sobering conclusion. The F-35 “remains in every official sense nothing more than a massively expensive prototype,” Grazier wrote.


He highlighted four problems in particular. In Grazier’s own words:

  • Engineers can’t complete the Joint Simulation Environment facility. Taxpayers are paying a premium for the F-35 to be capable of defeating any adversary’s defense and anti-aircraft systems. The only way, short of war, to see if the F-35 can perform as promised is to simulate a modern threat environment. The contractor never delivered a functional simulation facility despite having had 14 years to do so, and the facility is still incomplete six years after the Navy was given the project.
  • Program officials continue to struggle against a tide of F-35 design flaws. Nearly every time the engineers solve one problem, a new one is discovered. The F-35 still has 871 unresolved deficiencies, only two fewer than last year. Ten of these are the more serious Category I deficiencies that “may cause death, severe injury, or severe occupational illness; may cause loss or major damage to a weapon system; critically restricts the combat readiness capabilities of the using organization.”
  • The F-35 program made some reliability improvements in 2020, but is still failing to live up to its maintenance and sortie requirements, despite the fact that those expectations were set very low. When aircraft are unable to fly often enough for adequate training, it can result in diminished pilot skills, increased peacetime accidents, and degraded combat effectiveness.
  • For years, one of the biggest weaknesses of the F-35 program has been the deeply flawed maintenance and spare parts computer network called the Autonomic Logistics Information System, known as ALIS. Pentagon leaders finally admitted defeat in 2020 and pulled the plug on ALIS. It will be replaced with the cloud-based Operational Data Integrated Network, but the report warns that program officials are repeating many of the same mistakes made with ALIS, which would saddle the troops on the maintenance line with another flawed product.

So what went wrong? Lockheed and the Pentagon baked fundamental flaws into the F-35 program from the start in 2001, Grazier said. “It was based on technology requirements,” he said. “It wasn’t based on combat requirements.”
In other words, the F-35’s designers started with unproven tech such as new sensors, fancy cockpit equipment and novel radar-absorbing materials and asked themselves, “What can we do with all this?”
The answer, it turns out, is a whole lot—but none of it well and never efficiently.
“It’s the exact opposite of how really classic and effective aircraft began,” Grazier added. In the case of successful designs, the developers “started with combat requirements in mind, based on actual combat experience—and the technology available at the time was used to make a very effective aircraft.”
Take the A-10, an affordable, survivable attack plane that remains as relevant today as when it first entered service in 1976. The requirements were clear—fly low and slow with a powerful gun and plenty of underwing munitions in order to support ground troops in even the most intensive close combat.
The requirements not only were goals—they were boundaries. To support infantry, the A-10 didn’t need to be supersonic like the F-35 is. It didn’t need to fly from an aircraft carrier like the F-35 can do. It certainly didn’t need to be stealthy like the F-35 purports to be.

In the case of the A-10, combat-driven requirements helped to produce a plane that did at least one thing very well and reliably—and at acceptable cost. That makes it pretty much the opposite of the F-35 with its ambivalent performance, poor reliability and high cost.
“The F-35 program is approaching a crossroads,” Grazier wrote. “The U.S. taxpayers are paying a premium for an aircraft that is supposed to be able to do it all. It is being tested to see if it can live up to the lavish promises made to sell the program. But that testing is revealing significant deficiencies.”
The Air Force already has paid for around 250 F-35s. It originally wanted more than 1,700 of the planes. It’s increasingly likely production will end well before that point.

 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom