TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Anmdt]

Regarding IR suppression, Akinci will be flying far above the range of IR guided missiles, and against aircraft launched AA missiles or SAMs: it's not a stealth aircraft so it's pointless to hide the IR signature when it will be visible to radar anyway. As I said, you have some kind of grudge against Baykar which is why an otherwise educated person like you is coming up with these irrational reasons to trash them.

I would like to reply further but each time you come up with something new.

First: I don't imply an IR suppression like the ones installed on attack helicopters, but at least preventing the extrusion of the exhaust channel, covering it engine cases thus not leaving a metallic-heated part facing to ground. Furthermore as Baykar is often mentioned of innovation by their fans, so it would be better for their engineering capability-image by developing an innovative supression system similar to the helicopters, could benefit them.

Second: The drone has maximum altitude, yet it won't be achieved when it is fully loaded with missiles and internal payload, it will definitely need to go down to range of MANPADS.

If you carefully look Turboprop aircraft in military you will see their exhaust channel left in engine casing. Golden rule of IR signature: Dont leave hot tips exposed, for ships it is "any" for planes "facing toward ground". These metallic surfaces shine up in FLIR, even at the simplest one, from 20k altitude.
Seeing MQ-9's exhaust you will get what i intend to mean.

 

[Anmdt]

You can not progress only with positive feedback. A negative feedback is not condescending.
For people with a complex, it is condescending.
Especially when the outcome is a product. Example: Anka, see where did it come from, to where and it is achieved by feedback. There is another project which i can not name has been improved by 300%, by negative feedbacks.
I suggest you to not personalize discussions.

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344674966772588548

Temel Kotil announced that 5 deliveries will be made to the Turkish Armed Forces in the Aksungur SİHA project.

 

[Zafer]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1344674966772588548

Temel Kotil announced that 5 deliveries will be made to the Turkish Armed Forces in the Aksungur SİHA project.

I wonder which ones those forces are. Navy is likely but who else?

 

[Anmdt]

Looking down on the work of many engineers

stating the obvious is not looking down on the project or the work itself, or there is something to be glorified unnecessarily. The project is still in development, their first time with a turboprop engine, turboprop engines are freshly installed so maybe they haven't even started IR signature evaluation but rather working on the flight, moreover the engine with casing was delivered by Ukraine so it has nothing to do with Baykar.
This doesn't change the fact, if remains as is, those engines are perfect targets for IR missiles. And this statement does not look down on the project but only raises concerns.
Don't bend my words.

 

[Era_shield]

Second: The drone has maximum altitude, yet it won't be achieved when it is fully loaded with missiles and internal payload, it will definitely need to go down to range of MANPADS.

Baykar's Akinci webpage says "operational maximum altitude: 30,000 feet - 40,000 feet", implying 30k ft will be its max operational altitude for its heaviest expected mission load. In any case, Akinci will not be flown within MANPADS range. If for whatever unlikely reason it came to that, the operator will instead reduce the load or sacrifice endurance or something else. Even with a fully shrouded engine the risk of MANPADS is still high because newer ones can detect the silhouette of the airframe against the sky using a UV sensor or other sensors - no engine heat required. So, again, MANPADS are irrelevant to Akinci's mission.

Golden rule of IR signature: Dont leave hot tips exposed, for ships it is "any" for planes "facing toward ground". These metallic surfaces shine up in FLIR, even at the simplest one, from 20k altitude.
Seeing MQ-9's exhaust you will get what i intend to mean.

Ok. Standard practice. Golden rule. Simple even for the dumbest military aeronautical engineer. Yet apparently Baykar's engineers failed to do it? Either they are the dumbest engineers in the world or there's nothing wrong with it the way it is.

 

[Anmdt]

Ok. Standard practice. Golden rule. Simple even for the dumbest military aeronautical engineer. Yet apparently Baykar's engineers failed to do it? Either they are the dumbest engineers in the world or there's nothing wrong with it the way it is.

Will not rewrite, the highlighted part is answer to this part:
Also, i didn't imply anything about the company or the engineers. stop these arguments,i have friends at that company, i have no reason to look down on them,or the company, or i am not an alien to Baykar.

stating the obvious is not looking down on the project or the work itself, or there is something to be glorified unnecessarily. The project is still in development, their first time with a turboprop engine, turboprop engines are freshly installed so maybe they haven't even started IR signature evaluation but rather working on the flight, moreover the engine with casing was delivered by Ukraine so it has nothing to do with Baykar.
This doesn't change the fact, if remains as is, those engines are perfect targets for IR missiles. And this statement does not look down on the project but only raises concerns.
Don't bend my words.

Baykar's Akinci webpage says "operational maximum altitude: 30,000 feet - 40,000 feet", implying 30k ft will be its max operational altitude for its heaviest expected mission load. In any case, Akinci will not be flown within MANPADS range. If for whatever unlikely reason it came to that, the operator will instead reduce the load or sacrifice endurance or something else.

This is the contradictory part, if Baykar is capable of delivering the platform with conditioned IR signature,which i believe they are and they will do it such, why to even concern about this numbers regarding to altitude?

Even with a fully shrouded engine the risk of MANPADS is still high because newer ones can detect the silhouette of the airframe against the sky using a UV sensor or other sensors - no engine heat required. So, again, MANPADS are irrelevant to Akinci's mission.

Then let's scrap all those standards because missiles are advanced,
There is a reason why standards and requirements exists, the harder your platform is to be detected, the better and higher tech systems are used to detect it which won't be available in mass numbers. Also these systems wouldn't be available to all, but only trained operators. If not well managed such IR can be detected from simple E/O available at almost any APC.

My point was not Manpads solely, it was only given as an extreme example of IR guided missiles, yet still it doesn't change the fact in several occasions the drone can be exposed to manpads threat, like other drones with similar altitudes, or jets with higher operational altitudes have faced this threat when they needed to cruise at lower altitudes for several reasons.

 

[AzeriTank]

Rear-aspect IR signature wouldn't really come into play in that scenario since the Akinci and enemy jet would be facing each another.

Jamming/deception like that could work for older radars, but if the enemy jet also has an AESA radar, jamming or deceiving it by just using your own AESA radar isn't likely. Usually special ESM/ECM equipment is needed to achieve that against AESA systems. Also, some A2A missiles now have home-on-jam mode, so it might just make it easier for the missile to find you. But overall this is good for the Akinci because the enemy jet can't easily jam/deceive its AESA radar either, yet the Akinci has no pilot and costs less, and has much longer loiter time. It has the advantage.

the reason i said both the main air defense radar (or the AESA radar that whose jets have) and radar on the missile is, even though you cannot jam the main radar, you still can jam the radar on the missiles at the final stage when it turns on its radar... no air force use AESA radars on those missiles and they are so expensive, including Turkey.. thats why some countries want to use both IIR and radar together but it needs another 5 years at least, as the problem is when the missile fly more than 25 km, the IIR head heats up and at final stage might not be accurate.. but as you know, they are planning to put a cover on it, s it needs tests for years.. until that MIUS and GOksungur will be around..

IR signature would always be there, as its a jet engine, it push the heat back. but when you use the aircraft smart, you can get rid of it most of the times... i mean knowing your weekness and not to put yourself in that situation, its not a tb2 to fly on target, it will shoot areas far and the ground attack move at the same time with tb2s..

Also, those who got no idea, it doesnt really matter what aircraft you have, once you send the WVR air to air missiles that have IIR head on, there is not way you can run from it.. take it f22 or any other aircraft... thats why the whole new concept is to be able to shoot missiles, or get that closer, before the danger area of 25-30 km. the future is DICM systems. all those missiles with IIR head, will be downed with these systems, but you need an energy to use it. THATS WHY, AKinci use strong Turboprob engines...
I am sure if anybody would give all this info, would get a positive star, but somehow i never got one.. )

 

[Nilgiri]

I would like to reply further but each time you come up with something new.

First: I don't imply an IR suppression like the ones installed on attack helicopters, but at least preventing the extrusion of the exhaust channel, covering it engine cases thus not leaving a metallic-heated part facing to ground. Furthermore as Baykar is often mentioned of innovation by their fans, so it would be better for their engineering capability-image by developing an innovative supression system similar to the helicopters, could benefit them.

Second: The drone has maximum altitude, yet it won't be achieved when it is fully loaded with missiles and internal payload, it will definitely need to go down to range of MANPADS.

If you carefully look Turboprop aircraft in military you will see their exhaust channel left in engine casing. Golden rule of IR signature: Dont leave hot tips exposed, for ships it is "any" for planes "facing toward ground". These metallic surfaces shine up in FLIR, even at the simplest one, from 20k altitude.
Seeing MQ-9's exhaust you will get what i intend to mean.

MQ-9, Eitan etc, are helped by one engine and thus fuselage fairing availability compared to akinci where you got to do this "twice" effectively and on each wing too (burdening performance envelope more than twice as much given wing moments for same return etc). Fuselage has lot more structural cohesion for this kind of thing.

Maybe this is a initial/mid setup + testing iteration too.

You can see some instability/mini-surge probably from throttle ramp testing vis-a-vis surge valves etc. as my first hunch but hard to exactly say whats going on in this video.

But such testing would benefit from having hot-section+tailpipe more accessible and visual (given instrumentation lag for various phenonemon) at this stage of dev.

Let us see what the final deployed iteration looks like, IR suppression is indeed very important.

Maybe tailpipe can be rerouted/nozzled differently somewhat, but it depends how much performance from exhaust (jet) may be needed in some op. regimes too. I have not looked into the platform and engine that much.

So maybe the chosen design layout (Engine on each wing) inherently is somewhat unable to do this feasibly to large extent and the tradeoffs were found acceptable. Let us see.

 

[Nutuk]

I think @anmdt has a point, the engines of Akinci look indeed without IR suppression.

But than again Baykar is a company that is improving on feedbacks, so if this is found troublesome by the military they will have to bring on IR suppression eventually.

Let see, first is first. Let the bird fly first before shooting it down

 

[AzeriTank]

I think @anmdt has a point, the engines of Akinci look indeed without IR suppression.

But than again Baykar is a company that is improving on feedbacks, so if this is found troublesome by the military they will have to bring on IR suppression eventually.

Let see, first is first. Let the bird fly first before shooting it down

we all know it, you need to be blind not to see it. the question, is it critical? Can it survive without it?

 

[mysndgn]

Roketsan released the new video of the CİRİT Missile


The CİRİT Missile system, used in ANKA and AKSUNGUR, continues to maintain its deterrent effect.

 

[Turko]

Baykar's Akinci webpage says "operational maximum altitude: 30,000 feet - 40,000 feet", implying 30k ft will be its max operational altitude for its heaviest expected mission load. In any case, Akinci will not be flown within MANPADS range. If for whatever unlikely reason it came to that, the operator will instead reduce the load or sacrifice endurance or something else. Even with a fully shrouded engine the risk of MANPADS is still high because newer ones can detect the silhouette of the airframe against the sky using a UV sensor or other sensors - no engine heat required. So, again, MANPADS are irrelevant to Akinci's mission.


Ok. Standard practice. Golden rule. Simple even for the dumbest military aeronautical engineer. Yet apparently Baykar's engineers failed to do it? Either they are the dumbest engineers in the world or there's nothing wrong with it the way it is.

C'mon brother, no one said they were dumbs. No need to exaggerate. We all respect Turkish engineers apart from capitalist bloodsucker monopolists.

 

[Combat-Master]

we all know it, you need to be blind not to see it. the question, is it critical? Can it survive without it?

It is nit-picking for sure, no plane is going to go full throttle to where flames going to be spewing out for the duration of it's flight.

Gorgeous

 

[Yasar_TR]

Roketsan released the new video of the CİRİT Missile


The CİRİT Missile system, used in ANKA and AKSUNGUR, continues to maintain its deterrent effect.

Yes they are used in Anka and Aksungur. But Cirit missile was developed for a number of uses. It was developed to be used from Atak t-129 as well. And managed to hit close to 10 km target. It is specified to be effective in 8km.
It has a tri mode (anti personnel, anti armour and incendiary).
It has a anti personnel only mode where it is more effective.
It has a thermobaric mode where it is more effective towards structures and personnel.
They are also used from armoured carriers and naval platforms in surface to surface mode.
At around 20K dollars per missile they are “cheap” for what they can achieve.
It can be used against light armoured vehicles, as a “poor man’s hellfire missile”.

Air Weapons: Turks Develop A Superior 70mm Missile

A Turkish firm recently delivered the first 2,000 of 10,000 Cirit 70mm laser guided missiles to the UAE (United Arab Emirates) for use on AH-64 helicopter gunships These missiles cost $20,000 each In addition to a lower price than most 70mm missiles (a

www.strategypage.com

 

[Hexciter]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1345465992542117888

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Ukranian navy commander Oleksiy Neijpapa: "We have tested the TB2 activities on maritime missions. We found it very capable and we're going to order a number TB2s for our navy". (Paraphrasing)

https://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dunya/ukraynali-komutandan-turk-savunma-sanayine-ovgu-41705532

 

[Test7]

Ukraine expects to buy Turkish drones this year​

Country plans to receive Turkish unmanned aerial vehicles, corvettes, says commander of naval forces​

Ukrainian Naval Forces Commander Oleksiy Neizhpapa Monday said Ukraine this year expects to receive Turkish unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and corvettes for its navy.

The country plans to buy Turkey's Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, he told the Ukrainian media.

Neizhpapa also said Ukraine will use the drones both in sea and land operations, adding that his country will reach a production capacity at NATO standards thanks to Ada-class corvettes jointly produced with Turkey.

Ukraine expects to buy Turkish drones this year

Country plans to receive Turkish unmanned aerial vehicles, corvettes, says commander of naval forces - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Stuka]

Baykar Defence AKINCI

The UAV seems to be proceeding according to plan and deliveries are to be expected in 2021.
This Tweet from the Official Baykar Twitter Account seems to suggest so.
I am not sure if they are referring to the entire Program or (more likely) the 3rd Prototype.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346501678233776136

This tweet is from 4 Months ago (29th August 2020), so it would be likely that the 3rd Prototype (PT-3) is about to start flying.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1299789072139943936

But i have noticed that the Ismail Demir had announced Deliveries of the AKINCI until the end of 2020, but its safe to assume that it got delayed due to the Pandemic.
The Source for that: (Date of the Statement is 6th January 2020)

Savunmada 2020'de yeni teslimatlar başlıyor

Savunma Sanayii Başkanı Demir, "Bayraktar Akıncı TİHA'yı 2020 sonunda teslim edeceğiz. Atak Faz-2 helikopterlerini teslime başlayacağız. Hisar-A ve Atmaca deniz füzesini 2020'de envantere alacağız. TCG Anadolu'yu 2020 sonunda teslim edeceğiz." dedi. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

The latest Statement from Selcuk Bayraktar revised the date to 2021 (Date of Statement 5th September 2020)

Selçuk Bayraktar: Akıncı TİHA, 2021’de göreve başlayacak

Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığı liderliğinde Baykar tarafından yerli ve milli imkanlarla geliştirilen Bayraktar Akıncı TİHA (Taarruzi İnsansız Hava Aracı), 2021...

www.hurriyet.com.tr

Additionally I was questioning which engine would be used due to multiple variants by motor sich and Baykars Offical Site seems to have been upgraded since and. They offer two variants 450hp and 750hp)

So we are talking the about this Engine Family.

The Question remains, what engines are the Prototypes using because there is a significant difference in Power Output and I am unsure which engines are used as a basis for the figures of the UAV.
for instance does the Capacity of 1350kg apply for one or both of the engines.

For Comparison
The MQ9 Reaper has a payload capacity of 1700kg with 1x 900hp Honeywell TPE331-10 turboprop Engine.
AKINCI with 1500hp (2x 750hp AI-450C-2) should theoretically be able to dwarf that number.

 

[Nilgiri]

The Question remains, what engines are the Prototypes using because there is a significant difference in Power Output and I am unsure which engines are used as a basis for the figures of the UAV.
for instance does the Capacity of 1350kg apply for one or both of the engines.

For Comparison
The MQ9 Reaper has a payload capacity of 1700kg with 1x 900hp Honeywell TPE331-10 turboprop Engine.
AKINCI with 1500hp (2x 750hp AI-450C-2) should theoretically be able to dwarf that number.

For now it is more reflected in MTOW numbers:

MQ-9 = 4.8 ton

Akinci = 5.5 ton


MQ-9 empty weight = 2.2 ton for comparison

If anyone has Akinci empty weight, it would be useful to see that to gain idea of basic performance envelope.

With this in mind I would say the Akinci payload number is provisional one given empty weight is not given at manufacturer's site yet:

BAYKAR Technology

Turkey's first tech company to develop indigenous UAVs

baykardefence.com

That or there is an operational profile tradeoff (baked into the empty weight design itself) w.r.t various ranges, speed and endurance need versus payload need.

I think we just need to give some more time for some numbers to be more clear from manufacturer end as there are two engine options apparently (450 hp and 750 hp) to begin with.