Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

[Gary]

Exclusive: 150,000 Ukraine soldiers killed in action through October​

Funeral announcement and prosthetic maker data indicate Ukraine’s war deaths are much higher than Russia’s

Exclusive: 150,000 Ukraine soldiers killed in action through October - Asia Times

Recent articles in several leading US newspapers followed a statement from National Security Council spokeswoman Adrienne Watson saying that Russia had

asiatimes.com

Recent articles in several leading US newspapers followed a statement from National Security Council spokeswoman Adrienne Watson saying that Russia had suffered “staggeringly high losses” in the Ukraine war.

The casualties are a vital part of understanding the war not only because the subject speaks to the future of Ukraine and Russia, but it also, if the losses are as severe as some insist, speaks to the issue of just how long the war can continue.

Every number cited below is from the Internet. There is no controlled, classified or proprietary data. The US National Security Council may know things that we don’t know, but this wouldn’t be the first time in history that casualty reports were inflated up the chain of command.

What we do know is that casualty ratios are fairly consistent across a large number of wars, and this helps us use public source data effectively. We have very little hard data. But what data we do have suggests that Ukraine’s casualties are higher than Russia’s.

The little hard data we have on Russia comes mainly from one source, an anti-Putin group who have people in Russia who have, since the beginning of the war, continually searched local newspapers as well as thousands of websites all over Russia looking for obituaries or blogger “memorials” to family members or friends.

They have been able to find about 36,000 documented deaths. They estimate that they are missing nearly 50% and currently place their “guesstimate” of total Russian deaths at “47,000 – 70,000.” What does this imply for total casualties, that is, killed/wounded/missing/prisoner?

Prisoner numbers are low. The best published data suggest that there are currently fewer than 5,000 Russians held by Ukraine and fewer than 12,000 Ukrainians held by Russia.

For purposes of calculation, we designated all Russian deaths as “Killed In Action” (KIA). This is, of course, not (and never is) technically correct.

In Vietnam, the US had 58,000 killed (58,220). In fact, only 47,434 were combat deaths; the others were from a host of other causes. Anecdotal reports suggest that a significant percentage of Russian deaths are not, in fact, combat-related.

The number of missing is also a mystery. There must be some, but those numbers are unknown. We do know that there is a very large number of people, virtually all young men, who have fled the two countries. This number is (another guesstimate) roughly 350,000-400,000 Russians and over 650,000 Ukrainians.

Wounded in Action (WIA) figures have, again based on spotty reporting, averaged between 3 and 4 times the KIA numbers. 3.5 is a good rough estimate for both sides.

Assembling public source data from various campaigns during the war – the run into Kiev, the fight for Mariupol, the counter-attack in Kharkiv, the fight west of the Dnepr River, the battle for Bakhmut, the 2023 summer counteroffensive – suggests a total of 55,000-65,000 Russian KIAs as of the end of November, which falls comfortably inside the 47,000-70,000 estimate cited above.

That is as good an estimate as we can get at this point. Using a 3.5 ratio of WIA to KIA, we obtain 47,000 KIA and 164,500 WIA (low end) and 70,000 KIA and 245,000 WIA (high end), or total casualties between 211,500 – 315,000. That is quite close to estimates circulated by the US National Security Council.

It has been reported that the Russians had suffered 13,000 casualties, and lost 220 armored vehicles, in ten weeks of fighting around Avdiivka. The fighting there has been very intense, and while it does not involve the bulk of Russian troops, it does represent a large percentage of Russian combat actions across the entire front, sometimes as much as 75% of total Russian combat operations on a given day, at least based on Ukrainian General Staff commentary on “engagement” numbers?

Using the 3.5 multiple on 13,000 total casualties, we assume 2,900 KIA and 10,100 WIA over 10 weeks. Assuming that represents 75% of Russian casualties across the entire combat area, that would mean total Russian losses in those ten weeks were 3,900 KIA and 13,600.

If that rate were spread out over the entire war, Russian losses would run in the range of 36,000 KIA and 126,000 WIA. We are back to the same number range that the verified data on Russian deaths support.

If we assume that casualties around Avdiivka represent half of Russian casualties, we end up with 6,000 KIA and 21,000 WIA over 10 weeks, or total war figures for Russia of 60,000 KIA and 210,000 WIA.

Contrast this to the daily Ukrainian General Staff (UGS) reports.

How exaggerated are the UGS reports? On the day after US National Security spokesperson Watson appeared on CNN, the UGS reported that the Russians had taken – in a single day – 1,030 KIA and lost 50 armed vehicles.

These numbers simply aren’t credible. They are generated for propaganda purposes and should carry no weight in US policymaking or other decision-making on the war. In fact, virtually all the numbers that come out of Kiev, as well as Moscow, are propaganda, and shouldn’t be viewed as anything else.


That should neither surprise nor shock. Sadly, we also get the same sort of reporting from much of the mainstream media, which regurgitates the numbers without analysis. Some governments do the same. It would be more credible if they simply refused to comment.

As for Ukrainian casualties, the losses are regarded as national secrets and cannot be reported. However, there are occasional data points that emerge. Up until about two months ago, obituaries, church bulletins and death announcements were still openly published.

These data points suggest that, as of this past summer, there were about 43,000 dead. Incomplete data – video records of funerals, pictures of graveyards – suggest that the figure was higher, but the Verkhovna Rada (Ukraine’s legislature) recently outlawed the filming of funerals, so much of that data dried up since summer.

Nonetheless, we can take the 43,000 KIA number as a minimum for Ukrainian KIA as of last summer. That would also suggest 150,000 WIA.

Other data became available late summer in the form of reports that came from first a maker of prosthetics and later from a non-profit that was trying to provide prosthetics to Ukrainian soldiers who have lost limbs.


This is extremely useful because the rate of loss of limbs in combat remains within fairly narrow ranges, at between 4.5% and 7% of total casualties. So, if you have seven amputees, it follows that you would have something like 100 total casualties. And if the 1/3.5 ratio is used, that would translate into 22 KIA and 78 WIA (again rounding off).

The data on the ratio of loss of limbs to total casualties are available online in studies at the National Library of Medicine. In the Iraq and Afghanistan wars of 2001 to 2011, 5.2% of all serious injuries (which roughly equates to WIA) were amputations.

In Vietnam, the number was 5.9%. The number was around 2% for all of World War I, though that number is an overall average; the rate was substantially higher at the end of the war than at the beginning

We have two data points on amputees in the Ukraine war. One report, from the Associated Press at the end of July or early August, estimated that the number was being withheld but that there were “more than 20,000” Ukrainians in need of prosthetics.

If that represents 7% of total casualties, that would translate into 285,000 total casualties, or 63,000 KIA and 222,000 WIA. If the lower percentage were used (4.5%), that would suggest 440,000 total casualties, or 97,000 KIA and 343,000 WIA. If we use the US number from Iraq and Afghanistan (5.2%), then the casualty total would be 385,000, split between 85,000 KIA and 300,000 WIA.

Two other data points are available from the non-profit that is attempting to provide prosthetics to Ukrainian amputees and from a German prosthetic manufacturer. Both figures are from September, which would mean these numbers are now higher.

The non-profit said that there is a need for 59,000 prosthetics; the German manufacturer gave the number as “more than 50,000.” Using the 50,000 number, and 7%, would give casualty figures of 700,000+, or 155,000 KIA and 545,000 WIA.

Using the 4.5% figure gives total casualties of 1.1 million, with 245,000 KIA and 855,000 WIA. It is difficult to get a feel for which number is best, but a conservative estimate would place Ukrainian casualties at 100,000+ KIA and 350,000+ WIA.

At the same time, it is worth remembering that Ukraine, which has a notional population of 43 million, probably has a real population on the order of 32-35 million. Russia has a population of 147 million.

These figures, to be sure, are hard to grasp. Since the end of WWII, total US casualties – Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc – were slightly less than 105,000 KIA and 300,000 WIA, for a total of 405,000 casualties. The current US population is 331 million.

In his interview with The Economist in November, Ukrainian Commander-in-Chief General Valerie Zaluzhnyi said, using official UGS numbers, that Russia had “well more than 150,000 killed,” and then added that these numbers are “insane.”

It is possible that Ukrainian KIAs were nearing the 150,000 mark in late October–early November, as the data above suggest. Might Zaluzhnyi’s comment have been directed at his own government – that Ukrainian KIA totals were approaching 150,000, an “insane” level – and that it was time to change course in the war? We won’t likely know any time soon.

 

[contricusc]

Bullshit, this is not an excuse, they are capable enough to exercise the logistics to sustain war on 3 fronts with Russia, I don't see why they can't put that logistical and planning prowess into an election that is the very showcase to the world why they need to be defended at all costs.

There is no need to waste the resources needed for organizing elections now, instead of focusing entirely on the war effort. Elections would also divert attention from the war and create infighting between Ukrainians. Right now, all the surveys show that Ukrainians don’t want election at the moment, so organizing them now would be unpopular and costly. Ukraine will hold elections, don’t worry about that, but it will do it when the time is right.

"As per Russsia" then show me in the Russian constitution that they are a dictatorship and declare themselves as such.

You fall again for the marketing stunts. You can be a dictatorship without having that written in the constitution. If you don’t allow a real opposition to operate freely, you are a dictatorship. It doesn’t matter if you call yourself “democratic“ or “people’s republic”.

You guys always hide behind the perception that 'because we don't like Russia, all of their elections are fraudulent in nature". Meanwhile the EU readily throw democracy when it comes to owning Orban.

They are fraudulent not because we don’t like Russia, but because they simply are. They don’t allow a real opposition to form and spread its ideas, as there is massive censorship and retribution against those who speak against the regime and the war. This makes any election just a show and a marketing stunt.

I could see from afar how the two camps of "democracies", East and West from a neutral perspective. Not from the clouded judgment from the West or Russia

Your perception is not neutral. You are clouded by your hate for the West and islamist sympathies.

I am the more sophisticated here when it comes to judgments, you guys fail again and again to prove your claim as usual. Just because you guys are not used to it doesn't mean it was dumb.

This is your own opinion, not shared by everyone. The fact that you call yourself “more sophisticated“ doesn’t mean anything. Sometimes you make good points and analogies, but sometimes you just argue against something for the sake of arguing, using bad arguments. Being against the Western narative doesn’t mean being sophisticated.

You are anti-West on every topic, which proves lack of sophistication and nuance.

My unpopular posts finally proved correct when not long after, the model democracy and darling of the West which is israel, used the very idea of disproportionate response in Gaza using air power.

You are again using false statements to support your position. Israel is not a “model democracy”, and it is also not the “darling of the West”. While it has a lot of political support from some Western leaders, Israel is not very popular among the Western general public.

Here is what a European poll in 2003 showed:

”Israel has been described as the top threat to world peace, ahead of North Korea, Afghanistan and Iran, by an unpublished European Commission poll of 7,500 Europeans, sparking an international row.

The survey, conducted in October, of 500 people from each of the EU's member nations included a list of 15 countries with the question, 'tell me if in your opinion it presents or not a threat to peace in the world'. Israel was reportedly picked by 59 per cent of those interviewed.”

Israel outraged as EU poll names it a threat to peace

Israel has been described as the top threat to world peace, ahead of North Korea, Afghanistan and Iran, by an unpublished European Commission poll of 7,500 Europeans, sparking an international row.

www.theguardian.com

So telling that Israel is the darling of the West is a lie. Europeans are generally skeptical of Israel.

So just because my statements that "Orbvan and Putin are the face of democracy in Europe" doesn't sound right for you (for now) doesn't mean its propaganda. Maybe just the like the last time it will take time to prove my assessment correct.

Putin is not the face of democracy in Europe. Democracy doesn’t include poisoning and imprisoning of your political opponents.

Hitler and Mussolini were not ”faces of democracy” just because they were popular at the time.

 

[Gary]

There is no need to waste the resources needed for organizing elections now, instead of focusing entirely on the war effort. Elections would also divert attention from the war and create infighting between Ukrainians. Right now, all the surveys show that Ukrainians don’t want election at the moment,

Of course, why need to waste resources for the very raison d 'etre' of your existence as an independent state rather than let's say a Russian client state?

Sure there will be no difference right?

so organizing them now would be unpopular and costly. Ukraine will hold elections, don’t worry about that, but it will do it when the time is right.

See, I told you people...look at this particular statement. " will do it when the time is right".

Historically this is what megalomaniac dictatorship says when they wanted to hold on to power. Look at Syria for example, the prime example of Authoritarianism in the world. In 1963 they declared Martial law in response to political infighting of the Ba'ath party, and in the time since they always renewed that Martial law to extend way after Hafiz Al Assad death and the rise of his son, Bashar into power.

Creating Martial law and trampling on democracy is also what Egypt used to make sure that Hosni Mubarak stayed in power from 1981-2011 and now Al-Sisi.

I think that Zelensky is trying to prolong the Martial law as an excuse for him to extend his power and consolidate his grip on both allies and opposition. This is why he's not interested in peace talks back in early 2022 as now revealed by Arestovych. He simply profited from the war and is trying to capitalize as much from it.

This is historically what dictators and megalomaniacs did when they wanted to stay in power. They create an imaginary problem or they use an existing problem and sell it to the population to justify their staying in power and crush anyone deemed to be a threat to their hold on the throne.

I guess the money for those Yachts is worth the effort to trample on democracy and the many Ukrainians duped into believing they were fighting for one.

You fall again for the marketing stunts. You can be a dictatorship without having that written in the constitution. If you don’t allow a real opposition to operate freely, you are a dictatorship. It doesn’t matter if you call yourself “democratic“ or “people’s republic”.

The burden of having to prove that Russia declared itself as a dictatorship is with you when you declare "As per Russia" .

They are fraudulent not because we don’t like Russia, but because they simply are. They don’t allow a real opposition to form and spread its ideas, as there is massive censorship and retribution against those who speak against the regime and the war. This makes any election just a show and a marketing stunt.

This is just a stupid baseless accusation that could not be proven, I could come up with the theory that the U.S is not a democracy as well by pointing out that both Republicans and Democrats are controlled by AIPAC, thereby not allowing any opposition, but only (visible) opposition that is rigged to make it look legitimate.

Your perception is not neutral. You are clouded by your hate for the West and islamist sympathies.

I don't hate the West, I merely disagree with some of its policies, dig deeper and you could find me defending the West just as hard as I criticize. When it needs to be defended of course.

This is your own opinion, not shared by everyone. The fact that you call yourself “more sophisticated“ doesn’t mean anything. Sometimes you make good points and analogies, but sometimes you just argue against something for the sake of arguing, using bad arguments. Being against the Western narative doesn’t mean being sophisticated.

You are anti-West on every topic, which proves lack of sophistication and nuance.

Really? We have been debating for so long here. From the very start, you (and that Spaniard Kathirz) have been inconsistent whenever I came up with some mind games to test your argument.

1. First you try to sell that the Russian invasion is illegal while defending U.S's invasion of Iraq or any Western atrocities, I defeated that logic to the point where you have to defend your opinion by pointing that none of their leaders are still alive, so they could get away with it LOL.
   
2. You have problem with Putin declaring his invasion of Ukraine as SMO, but gleefully accepting that the wider Iraq-Syria theater is a "counter terrorist operation to save people" which in not very true considering the nature of the war which involves two armies clashing head to head and gaining/defending ground.
   
3. Third, you and Woland tried to portray that only Russia uses excessive air power to punish the population which back then I rejected, noting that everyone uses air power to punish the population, 3 months later the Israelis (the darling of Western democracy) shows who is right in their judgment, which is mine. https://defencehub.live/threads/combat-war-geopolitics-history-and-analysis.488/post-271640
4. Bonus point, you declare that razing cities to the ground is done by the West ONLY in the past decade and no Western country does this anymore, If I may ask, where does Israel source its bombs used in Gaza right now ? Who give them the green light to do so ?
   

This kind of writing must not come from mere propagandists with dumb excuses because mine just keeps proving itself correct, while yours have to adapt over time.

You are again using false statements to support your position. Israel is not a “model democracy”, and it is also not the “darling of the West”. While it has a lot of political support from some Western leaders, Israel is not very popular among the Western general public.

Here is what a European poll in 2003 showed:

”Israel has been described as the top threat to world peace, ahead of North Korea, Afghanistan and Iran, by an unpublished European Commission poll of 7,500 Europeans, sparking an international row.

The survey, conducted in October, of 500 people from each of the EU's member nations included a list of 15 countries with the question, 'tell me if in your opinion it presents or not a threat to peace in the world'. Israel was reportedly picked by 59 per cent of those interviewed.”

Israel outraged as EU poll names it a threat to peace

Israel has been described as the top threat to world peace, ahead of North Korea, Afghanistan and Iran, by an unpublished European Commission poll of 7,500 Europeans, sparking an international row.

www.theguardian.com

So telling that Israel is the darling of the West is a lie. Europeans are generally skeptical of Israel.

In short this is the proof I need to support my theory that democracy in the West is a mere facade because there seems to be no connection between what the masses of the people think and what the elites have actually done.

Putin is not the face of democracy in Europe. Democracy doesn’t include poisoning and imprisoning of your political opponents.

Hitler and Mussolini were not ”faces of democracy” just because they were popular at the time.

Democracy has nothing to do with how the games are done, blackmails, assassinations, and all kinds of dirty stuff are very common in democracies. Some are better at hiding it, some are not that good.

We know for example there have been assassination attempts to kill/intimidate Valerii Zaluszhnyi by actors who seem not to like his popularity vis-a-vis Zelensky.

 

[UkroTurk]

Institute for the Study of War

Ukrainian officials continue to warn that Russia maintains its maximalist objectives and additional goals for territorial conquest in Ukraine, despite recent comments made by Western officials suggesting that Russia is already defeated. NATO Secretary

www.understandingwar.org

*Ukrainian officials continue to warn that Russia maintains its maximalist objectives and additional goals for territorial conquest in Ukraine, despite recent comments made by Western officials suggesting that Russia is already defeated.


*Ukraine will very likely receive the first batch of F-16s before the end of 2023.

*Russian forces conducted a series of drone strikes against Ukraine on the night of December 21 to 22.

 

[Gary]

Mariupol reconstruction is in full swing

 

[Maximilien Robespierre]

I have a genuine question why do either people with anime pictures or third worlders defend russia till death?

 

[Gary]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1738269597835342168

 

[contricusc]

I think that Zelensky is trying to prolong the Martial law as an excuse for him to extend his power and consolidate his grip on both allies and opposition. This is why he's not interested in peace talks back in early 2022 as now revealed by Arestovych. He simply profited from the war and is trying to capitalize as much from it.

Zelensky may very well be a wannabe dictator, time will tell about this. He is surely suspect. Many politicians in democratic countries have dictatorial tendencies, and if they manage to game they system they can hold into power for a very long time. Ukraine is not a very solid democracy and it is going through very difficult times now, so anything can happen. While Zelensky is surely a potential threat to Ukraine’s democracy, the Russian invasion is their biggest concern now.

The burden of having to prove that Russia declared itself as a dictatorship is with you when you declare "As per Russia" .

They are a dictatorship, they don’t need to declare anything. There is nothing to prove here. When a real opposition is not allowed to exist and political opponents are jailed for ridiculous reasons, the country is a dictatorship.

This is just a stupid baseless accusation that could not be proven, I could come up with the theory that the U.S is not a democracy as well by pointing out that both Republicans and Democrats are controlled by AIPAC, thereby not allowing any opposition, but only (visible) opposition that is rigged to make it look legitimate.

In the US there are many people who present their electoral platform in the primaries of the main parties, and if they manage to convince the public, they have a real chance at getting elected. This is how Trump got elected, and how you get people like Vivek Ramaswamy on the national stage. In Russia, people who speak against the establishment the way Vivek does would immediately get jailed.

I don't hate the West, I merely disagree with some of its policies, dig deeper and you could find me defending the West just as hard as I criticize. When it needs to be defended of course.

Since I’m reading this forum, I haven’t seen you defending the West yet.

Bonus point, you declare that razing cities to the ground is done by the West ONLY in the past decade and no Western country does this anymore, If I may ask, where does Israel source its bombs used in Gaza right now ? Who give them the green light to do so ?

Israel is not a Western country (it is in the Middle East). Also, when I criticized Russia and said that no Western country has done that lately, the statement was true. Even if you would consider Israel to be Western, at the time we had that discussion they were nit bombing cities to the ground.

I mantain my point that a country doing this is barbaric, and this applies to the Israelis in the same way it applies to the Russians. The fact that some Western countries support Israel and supply it with weapons is shameful and has a very degrading effect on the image of those Western countries.

I don’t have double standards like you do. I condemn both Russia and Israel for what they are doing, which is a barbaric invasion with the sole purpose of grabbing land. Meanwhile, you are anti-Israel but at the same time you cheer for Russia.

Democracy has nothing to do with how the games are done, blackmails, assassinations, and all kinds of dirty stuff are very common in democracies. Some are better at hiding it, some are not that good.

When blackmails, assasinations and abusive jailings are the norm, you can’t speak about democracy.

We know for example there have been assassination attempts to kill/intimidate Valerii Zaluszhnyi by actors who seem not to like his popularity vis-a-vis Zelensky.

This is just speculation, it is nothing certain. Considering Zaluszhnyi’s position and the current war, the assasination attempts can come from many directions.

 

[Ecderha]

As I posted many tweets that ruzzian which came to Ukraine start to realize in what shit WAR they were send.
Also realizing that there is no other way - they do not want to be putins soldiers so there is one way to be free

ruzzian soldiers keep shot themself in the head to became free

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1738536233519693870

 

[Ecderha]

again and again and again Avdiivka.

putin commanders keep sending meat soldiers there. Wave after Wave after Wave all attacks Fail, leaving many dead putin soldiers
You can not believe, but there are areas where you can not make step without dead putin soldiers around.
There are many, many dead ruzzian soldiers

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1738331063972196810

 

[UkroTurk]

Massive Russian strike on Kherson: there are dead and wounded, among them a child


Russia stroke the gas network in Kherson : a fire is raging in the city

The head of the Kherson MBA, Roman Mrochko, reported that at about 18:00 the Russian occupiers launched a massive attack on Kherson. Powerful explosions occurred in several areas of the city, after which several fires broke out.

“The enemy traditionally attacked residential areas,” Mrochko emphasized.

Putin Terrorizing civilians with cold winter

 

[Maximilien Robespierre]

Zelensky may very well be a wannabe dictator, time will tell about this. He is surely suspect. Many politicians in democratic countries have dictatorial tendencies, and if they manage to game they system they can hold into power for a very long time. Ukraine is not a very solid democracy and it is going through very difficult times now, so anything can happen. While Zelensky is surely a potential threat to Ukraine’s democracy, the Russian invasion is their biggest concern now.



They are a dictatorship, they don’t need to declare anything. There is nothing to prove here. When a real opposition is not allowed to exist and political opponents are jailed for ridiculous reasons, the country is a dictatorship.



In the US there are many people who present their electoral platform in the primaries of the main parties, and if they manage to convince the public, they have a real chance at getting elected. This is how Trump got elected, and how you get people like Vivek Ramaswamy on the national stage. In Russia, people who speak against the establishment the way Vivek does would immediately get jailed.



Since I’m reading this forum, I haven’t seen you defending the West yet.



Israel is not a Western country (it is in the Middle East). Also, when I criticized Russia and said that no Western country has done that lately, the statement was true. Even if you would consider Israel to be Western, at the time we had that discussion they were nit bombing cities to the ground.

I mantain my point that a country doing this is barbaric, and this applies to the Israelis in the same way it applies to the Russians. The fact that some Western countries support Israel and supply it with weapons is shameful and has a very degrading effect on the image of those Western countries.

I don’t have double standards like you do. I condemn both Russia and Israel for what they are doing, which is a barbaric invasion with the sole purpose of grabbing land. Meanwhile, you are anti-Israel but at the same time you cheer for Russia.



When blackmails, assasinations and abusive jailings are the norm, you can’t speak about democracy.



This is just speculation, it is nothing certain. Considering Zaluszhnyi’s position and the current war, the assasination attempts can come from many directions.

third worlders are obsessed with Israel

 

[Spitfire9]

You guys always hide behind the perception that 'because we don't like Russia, all of their elections are fraudulent in nature". Meanwhile the EU readily throw democracy when it comes to owning Orban.

Russia is de facto a dictatorship. The people of Russia are prevented from voting for any candidate they choose to support. They are prevented from voting for Navalny. They are prevented from voting for Yekaterina Duntsova.

As for Orban, when he is in a minority of one with a couple of dozen countries disagreeing with him, what is undemocratic about the will of a couple of dozen being followed rather than the will of one?

 

[Gary]

Zelensky may very well be a wannabe dictator, time will tell about this. He is surely suspect. Many politicians in democratic countries have dictatorial tendencies, and if they manage to game they system they can hold into power for a very long time. Ukraine is not a very solid democracy and it is going through very difficult times now, so anything can happen. While Zelensky is surely a potential threat to Ukraine’s democracy, the Russian invasion is their biggest concern now.

He is already a dictator, what else do you need ? his previous closest circles have spoken.

But I know you prefer to stay blind. Because that is so convenient.

They are a dictatorship, they don’t need to declare anything. There is nothing to prove here. When a real opposition is not allowed to exist and political opponents are jailed for ridiculous reasons, the country is a dictatorship.



In the US there are many people who present their electoral platform in the primaries of the main parties, and if they manage to convince the public, they have a real chance at getting elected. This is how Trump got elected, and how you get people like Vivek Ramaswamy on the national stage. In Russia, people who speak against the establishment the way Vivek does would immediately get jailed.

Bullshit, you're talking as if you are any different, what I see in the U.S is as long as you play the game set by AIPAC and the jewish lobby you're free to go, you could spew the biggest racist nonsense like Trump and gets away with it, try saying something like that in reference to the jews or anything the deemed threatening to their project and your political career is down the bin. In fact, Vivek Rawaswamy IIRC wanted to line the decapitated heads of Palestinians not long time ago, now imagine him saying that about israelis of the IDF.

One prime example is how they treat Rashida Tlaib.

Some 22 members of her own party joined the Republicans in backing a resolution that claimed Tlaib had been “promoting false narratives regarding the October 7, 2023, Hamas attack on Israel and for calling for the destruction of the state of Israel”.​

​

US House votes to censure Rashida Tlaib over Israel-Hamas war comments

House votes 234-188 to reprimand Tlaib, the only Palestinian American in Congress, who said she would not be silenced.

www.aljazeera.com

This is the so-called free democracy you guys have been jerking off to LMAO

You guys are not free, you just rigged the cosmetics so much that you look like one.

Since I’m reading this forum, I haven’t seen you defending the West yet.

You're not that big of a reader so I'm not surprised. But anyway....

Israel is not a Western country (it is in the Middle East). Also, when I criticized Russia and said that no Western country has done that lately, the statement was true. Even if you would consider Israel to be Western,

They're not a Western country in a geographic sense, but they sure are part of the Western civilizations/family and treated as such.

Geography is not the metric to judge which one is West or not, it's more of a perception. Japan is not in Europe or North America, but they are considered the West. Go read about it.

Western world - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

Despite being located in the Far East, a country like Japan, in some contexts, is considered a part of the West as it aligns with the ideals of Western-style democracy; while a country like Cuba, located in the Western Hemisphere, is argued as not being a part of the West as it aligns with the ideals of communism.​

at the time we had that discussion they were nit bombing cities to the ground.

Oh I get it, so just because (then) they're not doing it that means they're innocent LMAO. What kind of thinking is that?

Using that logic Russia is innocent because they're currently not bombing anyone in the last 15 minutes.

This encapsulates the so called morale of the West: "We are angels because we are currently not needing to bomb and raze anyone to the ground, but when we need to, we'll do it anyway"

​

I mantain my point that a country doing this is barbaric, and this applies to the Israelis in the same way it applies to the Russians. The fact that some Western countries support Israel and supply it with weapons is shameful and has a very degrading effect on the image of those Western countries.

You could maintain all you want, but individuals (with no power) don't count (they never were). It's your country at a national level and the West as an agglomeration that counts, and that they stand with israel and their crimes. This makes them complicit and because they're completely fine with that and in some cases, they are party to the conflict by supplying the tools needed to sustain such campiagn.

You guys are not that different from Russia. You see the same use of air power the same way Russia has been doing for the last 2 years in Ukraine, that is to punish the population which has nothing to to do with the decision making in a particular conflict.

So yeah of course many people are waking up to the (obvious) fact. And I'm going to be frank with you here, Ukraine better win, because if they don't (and they're increasingly not) then you'll be surprised just how much people in the world stands with Russia.

I don’t have double standards like you do. I condemn both Russia and Israel for what they are doing, which is a barbaric invasion with the sole purpose of grabbing land. Meanwhile, you are anti-Israel but at the same time you cheer for Russia.

I don't have double standard, it is me in fact who levels the perspective game by putting Russia and the West in the same level when it comes to their level of crimes and democracy.

Double standard fits the Ukrainian supporters/ NAFO gang perfectly, they're ape mad when Russia is dropping a few bombs in Kyiv or any other city but completely fine with israel dropping more bombs and killing more people in a shorter period of time than what Assad had done in Aleppo.

Ukraine's struggle against Russia is in fact the very face of irony of the double standard these days. consider that they stand with israel.

When blackmails, assasinations and abusive jailings are the norm, you can’t speak about democracy.

But that's the game in every democracy.

This is just speculation, it is nothing certain. Considering Zaluszhnyi’s position and the current war, the assasination attempts can come from many directions.

I mean it could very well be a prank, but come on already, follow the trail and you'll find that the one's getting itchy about Zaluzhnyii's rising popularity is none other than Zelensky.

 

[Gary]

Mariupol reconstruction is in full swing

I can't believe @MaciekRS is mad that people's houses are getting renovated.

I wonder what his face would look like if I posted a video of a Russian man starting a happy family with a girl he met in Donbas.

Russia is de facto a dictatorship.

Source: Trust me bro.

The people of Russia are prevented from voting for any candidate they choose to support. They are prevented from voting for Navalny. They are prevented from voting for Yekaterina Duntsova.

As for Orban, when he is in a minority of one with a couple of dozen countries disagreeing with him, what is undemocratic about the will of a couple of dozen being followed rather than the will of one?

The people in America are prevented to say even the word "free Palestine" lest they lose their jobs. Politicians in the West must conform to the talking points of jewish lobby like AIPAC.

And you guys think you are any different ? HAHA

Orban's Ukraine stance and the response the EU gave hime is one prime example that you guys use democracy as a facade, not because you're enthusiastic in one. In the normal times, democracy works, because it gave you what you wanted without much opposition, when democarcy itself are becoming a wall to prevent you from reaching your goal, you guys readily throw it into the bin.

 

[FiReFTW]

Of course Ukraine has massive casualties lol, why would they need to mobilize 500.000 troops? Every war has massive propaganda on each side, but honestly this Ukraine side's propaganda is on another level, their claims are so absurd that its actually comical and no sane person would ever believe anything close to what they are claiming, its ridicilous.
The same can be said about Russian propaganda, their claims are also insane and out of this world, they must have destroyed 3 times more aircraft already that Ukraine had at the start of the war.
I mean every war has massive propaganda on both sides but ive never seen anything like this, thats for sure.

 

[Spitfire9]

Of course Ukraine has massive casualties lol, why would they need to mobilize 500.000 troops? Every war has massive propaganda on each side, but honestly this Ukraine side's propaganda is on another level, their claims are so absurd that its actually comical and no sane person would ever believe anything close to what they are claiming, its ridicilous.
The same can be said about Russian propaganda, their claims are also insane and out of this world, they must have destroyed 3 times more aircraft already that Ukraine had at the start of the war.
I mean every war has massive propaganda on both sides but ive never seen anything like this, thats for sure.

I find the propaganda extremely trying although the more extreme claims can be viewed as amusing. as you point out, like Ukraine having lost far more materiel than it ever had. I wonder what proportion of Ukraine's F-16's Russia will have destroyed in a few months' time: 50%/100%/200%?

Where this conflict is concerned, I think that Ukraine distorts the truth while Russia just makes it up as it goes along.

 

[contricusc]

He is already a dictator, what else do you need ? his previous closest circles have spoken.

But I know you prefer to stay blind. Because that is so convenient.

I am not blind on Zelensky, I never liked him and my presumption is that he is a wannabe dictator. But it is just a presumption, nothing has been proven yet. What his political rivals say about him is irrelevant, because in politics people will always say bad things about you if there is disagreement.

As for Zelensky being a dictator, for this to happen you need two things:
1) For him to want to be a dictator (let’s presume he wants to)
2) For him to be able to use the system in a way that keeps him in power forever (this remains to be seen in the following years)

Many politicians in democratic countries are wannabe dictators, but because the system is stronger then them, they fail. This is why you have the separation of powers in a democracy.

What makes Russia a dictatorship is the fact that Putin was able to retain power despite the fact that initially the constitution banned him from seving a third term, just like in the case of Hugo Chavez and Xi Jinping. When leaders are able to change the constitution in order to remain in power, because the constitution prohibited them from keeping the power, that’s when a democracy is turned into a dictatorship.

In Ukraine, we are yet to see how things will play out. It is too early to tell.

One prime example is how they treat Rashida Tlaib.

Some 22 members of her own party joined the Republicans in backing a resolution that claimed Tlaib had been “promoting false narratives regarding the October 7, 2023, Hamas attack on Israel and for calling for the destruction of the state of Israel”.​

Rashida Tlaib was not jailed and tortured, like it would have happened to her if she was in Russia and have spoken against the war. In the US, the reaction to her was a resolution that was voted with a small margin of only 234-188 after being debated and her being allowed to support her point of view. There was also a failed resolutiom before that, so the attempt didn’t even pass the first time.

You are really dishonest if you are trying to make an equivalent between the political freedom in the US and the one in Russia. The US system is far from being perfect, and it has its problems, but it is a lot better and allows far more freedom than the political system in Russia. Yes, they have some things in common, but all the differences are in the favor of the US.

You could maintain all you want, but individuals (with no power) don't count (they never were). It's your country at a national level and the West as an agglomeration that counts, and that they stand with israel and their crimes. This makes them complicit and because they're completely fine with that and in some cases, they are party to the conflict by supplying the tools needed to sustain such campiagn.

The big difference is that whenever a country in the so called “West” does the same things as Russia, there is popular blowback, protests and a very solid pushback from the population and part of the media. This is because the population is more educated and less brainwashed, and it doesn’t support genocide (There are some people who do, but not the majority).

You won’t see mass protests in support of Ukraine happening in Russia, like you’ve seen protests in support of the Palestinians in the West.

What bothered people in the West about the Russian behavior is the fact that it had total popular support. The average Russian was ok with the indiscriminate killing of civilians, and you saw on Russian TV people speaking freely about nuking countries and committing genocide.

In the West, people are angry with Israel for doing the indiscriminate bombing, and thee are repeated calls for a ceasefire. I didn’t see that on the Russian media when Russians were razing Ukrainian cities.

I don't have double standard, it is me in fact who levels the perspective game by putting Russia and the West in the same level when it comes to their level of crimes and democracy.

I just explained to you that they are not in the same level. There are big differnces between the two, because in the West you don’t have unanimous support for mass bombing and genocide, like you have in Russia.

Double standard fits the Ukrainian supporters/ NAFO gang perfectly, they're ape mad when Russia is dropping a few bombs in Kyiv or any other city but completely fine with israel dropping more bombs and killing more people in a shorter period of time than what Assad had done in Aleppo.

Ukraine's struggle against Russia is in fact the very face of irony of the double standard these days. consider that they stand with israel.

Yes, that’s hypocritical and a double standard. Just like you who are against Israel but cheering for Putin.

 

[FiReFTW]

I find the propaganda extremely trying although the more extreme claims can be viewed as amusing. as you point out, like Ukraine having lost far more materiel than it ever had. I wonder what proportion of Ukraine's F-16's Russia will have destroyed in a few months' time: 50%/100%/200%?

Where this conflict is concerned, I think that Ukraine distorts the truth while Russia just makes it up as it goes along.

From alot of conflicts before there is always huge propaganda and lies but this war is at such an extreme that I find it baffling, I don't understand it, its such claims by both sides that nobody will take it seriously and they will just know that anything either side says is huge bs, if the propaganda numbers would at least be somewhat believable it would be a bit more reasonable and logical, I seriously see no point in this, people are not st*pid and that goes for your own soldiers also, if you exaggerate something so much its OBVIOUS that its a lie and you gain no positive effect only a negative one for morale and everything.

 

[Maximilien Robespierre]

They bring out Israel wheneber try to hide russian invasion LOL Russia killed same amount of muslims as israel.

third worlders mainly from Islands support russia to death, the user who is from those Island was anti russian 6 months ago now he is all for russia cuz muh israel hypocrisy coming from muslim world is funny they cheer whenever non muslims die but go we wuz innocent when they get the same, ukrwainians aren't innocent but palestinians are right?