Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

UkroTurk

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#The US Congress may allow the confiscation of Russian assets for Ukraine, - Ambassador


#Ukraine May Have Just Crossed Putin's Nuclear Red Line

 
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Bogeyman 

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Relic

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View attachment 67383
Aid for Ukraine. Look inside. Double that is aid to Israel.
I posted all the highlights of the bill already. There is WAY money money for Ukraine 🇺🇦 in the bill than there is for Israel 🇮🇱 in their bill. It's not even close

Ukraine Bill includes

- $13.78 Billion usd in USAI. This money allows Ukraine to purchase weapons they want / need directly from U.S. industry.

- $7.8 Billion usd in Presidential Drawdown Authority. This represents the value of items approved by Congress for the President to ship to Ukraine direct from U.S. existing inventories.

- $7.9 Billion usd macrofinancial loan. This is money that can be used to help pay any government expense other than government pensions. 50% of this loan is forgivable in November, 2024. The remaining 50% is forgivable on January 1st, 2026, pending Congressional review.

- $1.6 Billion usd loan for Ukraine to purchase weapons outside of the USA. 50% of this loan is forgivable in November, 2024. The remaining 50% is forgivable on January 1st, 2026, pending Congressional review.

- $1.5 Billion usd loan to support strenghening Eastern European defense against Russia. While it does not explicitly state that this money had to go to Ukraine, ultimately it will. 50% of this loan is forgivable in November, 2024. The remaining 50% is forgivable on January 1st, 2026, pending Congressional review.

- $300 Million usd to support Ukraine's border guards and police, including police that fall under the command of the military.

- $100 Million usd for anti-terrorism and demining activities in Ukraine.

That's substantially more than what Israel is set to receive in direct support, which is the following....

- $4.4 Billion usd in Presidential Drawdown Authority. This represents the value of items approved by Congress for the President to ship to Israel direct from U.S. existing inventories.

- $4 Billion usd for Iron Dome and David's Sling air defense systems. This money will buy more systems to strengthen Israel's air defense and will help replenish interceptors.

- 1.8 Billion usd for the purchase of Iron Beam air defense systems. This is cutting edge system that has been co-developed by Israel and USA and will be used for the first time in defense of Israel.

- $3.5 Billion usd in loans for the purchase of weapons from USA. This money is earmarked to allow Israel to purchase weapons that they need direct from U.S. manufacturers. The loan is to be paid back according to terms set my the President.

Total aid and loans directly for Ukraine: $32.88 Billion usd.

Total aid and loans directly for Israel: $14.1 Billion usd.
 

UkroTurk

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I posted all the highlights of the bill already. There is WAY money money for Ukraine 🇺🇦 in the bill than there is for Israel 🇮🇱 in their bill. It's not even close

Ukraine Bill includes

- $13.78 Billion usd in USAI. This money allows Ukraine to purchase weapons they want / need directly from U.S. industry.

- $7.8 Billion usd in Presidential Drawdown Authority. This represents the value of items approved by Congress for the President to ship to Ukraine direct from U.S. existing inventories.

- $7.9 Billion usd macrofinancial loan. This is money that can be used to help pay any government expense other than government pensions. 50% of this loan is forgivable in November, 2024. The remaining 50% is forgivable on January 1st, 2026, pending Congressional review.

- $1.6 Billion usd loan for Ukraine to purchase weapons outside of the USA. 50% of this loan is forgivable in November, 2024. The remaining 50% is forgivable on January 1st, 2026, pending Congressional review.

- $1.5 Billion usd loan to support strenghening Eastern European defense against Russia. While it does not explicitly state that this money had to go to Ukraine, ultimately it will. 50% of this loan is forgivable in November, 2024. The remaining 50% is forgivable on January 1st, 2026, pending Congressional review.

- $300 Million usd to support Ukraine's border guards and police, including police that fall under the command of the military.

- $100 Million usd for anti-terrorism and demining activities in Ukraine.

That's substantially more than what Israel is set to receive in direct support, which is the following....

- $4.4 Billion usd in Presidential Drawdown Authority. This represents the value of items approved by Congress for the President to ship to Israel direct from U.S. existing inventories.

- $4 Billion usd for Iron Dome and David's Sling air defense systems. This money will buy more systems to strengthen Israel's air defense and will help replenish interceptors.

- 1.8 Billion usd for the purchase of Iron Beam air defense systems. This is cutting edge system that has been co-developed by Israel and USA and will be used for the first time in defense of Israel.

- $3.5 Billion usd in loans for the purchase of weapons from USA. This money is earmarked to allow Israel to purchase weapons that they need direct from U.S. manufacturers. The loan is to be paid back according to terms set my the President.

Total aid and loans directly for Ukraine: $32.88 Billion usd.

Total aid and loans directly for Israel: $14.1 Billion usd.
I found the total aid app 60 billion. What's the difference between my numbers with yours?
 

Relic

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I found the total aid app 60 billion. What's the difference between my numbers with yours?
The total "Ukraine package" is $60.85 Billion usd, but nearly half of that money is for the USA 🇺🇸 to purchase weapons to restock their own inventories and for them to maintain their larger than usual military prescense in Europe. If you read through the bill carefully, you'll see the distinction between the money that is actually allocated for direct Ukraine aid vs the money that is allocated for the U.S. militaries own needs.
 

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NATO partners can supply Ukraine with six Patriot systems, German Chancellor Scholz said
 

contricusc

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The total "Ukraine package" is $60.85 Billion usd, but nearly half of that money is for the USA 🇺🇸 to purchase weapons to restock their own inventories and for them to maintain their larger than usual military prescense in Europe.

This is how the US always presents its aid, to look more than double than it truly is. This is why they seem to be the biggest aid contributor to Ukraine, despite the fact that European countries have contributed much more.

The US is more about marketing than about doing the right thing.
 

Relic

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This is how the US always presents its aid, to look more than double than it truly is. This is why they seem to be the biggest aid contributor to Ukraine, despite the fact that European countries have contributed much more.

The US is more about marketing than about doing the right thing.
This is a misguided opinion, IMO. You do realize that the American arms industry is not nationalized right? That means that in order for them to continue to stock the weapons that they give to Ukraine via Presidential Drawdown Authority, they have to have enough in stock for their own military first.

I'll give you an example. More than $5.5 Billion usd in the supplemental package is for the procurement of 155mm artillery shells. Where do you think most of those shells are going? Ukraine of course. The problem is that for USA to be able to send Ukraine 155mm artillery shells in the regular quantities they need, they have to 3x production. Publically trades companies don't simply add assembly lines and build facilities for the hell of it. They need guaranteed orders to justify building assembly lines and building out that infrastructure. Therefore, for Ukraine to get what it needs (vast sums of artillery shells) USA has to build the infrastructure to make that possible. That's where this money comes in... The same is true of the expansion of production lines for items such as GMLRS, GLSDB and Patriot Missiles. They don't have infinite stockpiles of those weapons. They need to increase production capacity to keep their military appropriately stocked, while also being able to aid Ukraine.

Do you realize that there is enough direct military aid in this package for Ukraine to receive roughly $1.8 Billion usd worth of American weapons per month, for the next 12 months the (1 year), and enough money to train 50,000'ish Ukrainian troops on a variety of weapons systems? That includes extremely expensive training such as pilot training and training operators to use systems such Patriot. There is also enough macro financial aid in the package ($9 Billion) to send Ukraine $750 Million usd per month to help keep their government functioning, for the next year.

Surely, you can't actually think that this bill is lacking HYPER meaningful aid? If you do, please tell me who else has put themselves in a position to send Ukraine $1.8 Billion usd worth of military supplies PER MONTH, along with $750 Million usd in financial aid, while training thousands of Ukrainian military personnel at facilities around the world?

Also, for the record, it's USA that is doing important work such as funding all of the artillrry ammunition that is being manufactured for Ukraine in Bulgaria. They're also the country with enough sway to get South Korea to lend them 155mm artillery shells so that Ukraine doesn't run out.

I think that you're misguided if you think that USA spending significant quantities of money to bolster their own military stockpiles and increase their own production base isn't neccessary for Ukraine's long term success.
 

contricusc

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I think that you're misguided if you think that USA spending significant quantities of money to bolster their own military stockpiles and increase their own production base isn't neccessary for Ukraine's long term success.

I’m not saying this is not necessary, I’m just pointing out the obvious double counting of the US aid. They count it once when they procure it for their military, and count it again when they donate it to Ukraine.

So if the US pays 1 billion to buy artillery shells to replenish their own stockpiles, and then donates those shells to Ukraine, they count the aid twice, as being 2 billion, but in reality they only donated shells worth 1 billion.

I’m not saying they don’t send aid, I’m saying they always overstate it to look twice what it really is. So when the US is counted as giving 40 billion in aid, it usually gives 20 billion only.

The maths is not the same for the European countries, which only count once the aid they give to Ukraine.

The double counting is a marketing trick to fool the world into believing that they are by far the biggest donor, when the reality is that the EU and its member countries have donated much more to Ukraine.
 

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I previously argue that after a Russian win in Ukraine, Moscow will go either after Central Asia or the Baltics. But it's actually more plausible that the Neo-Russian empire will be comprised of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Georgia.

Georgia's PM is Putin's pet

 

Relic

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I’m not saying this is not necessary, I’m just pointing out the obvious double counting of the US aid. They count it once when they procure it for their military, and count it again when they donate it to Ukraine.

So if the US pays 1 billion to buy artillery shells to replenish their own stockpiles, and then donates those shells to Ukraine, they count the aid twice, as being 2 billion, but in reality they only donated shells worth 1 billion.

I’m not saying they don’t send aid, I’m saying they always overstate it to look twice what it really is. So when the US is counted as giving 40 billion in aid, it usually gives 20 billion only.

The maths is not the same for the European countries, which only count once the aid they give to Ukraine.

The double counting is a marketing trick to fool the world into believing that they are by far the biggest donor, when the reality is that the EU and its member countries have donated much more to Ukraine.
USA has donated BY FAR the most amount of macro financial and military aid to Ukraine. No country has come even close. Yes, it's true that when adjusted for GDP, other countries have donated more, but let's recognize a couple realities.

1. GDP adjusted aid is actually irrelevant to Ukraine winning the war. Latvia or Estonia, for example, can send large percentages of their GDP in terms of aid and it has little actual tangible impact on the war because they're small countries, which means at the end of the day it still equates to a small amount of supplies. People can criticize USA all they want for "not sending enough", but the truth is they are sending exponentially more than anyone else is / can and they're the only country supporting Ukraine capable of keeping up with Russia's manufacturing and delivery capabilities.

2. It's not just about quantity. No country has the capacity to provide Ukraine with the combination of quality and quantity of weapons that USA can and has. Remember that the majority of the best weapons Ukraine has in its inventory, including ATACMS Ballistic Missiles, PAC-3 Patriot Missiles, HIMARS / GMLRS, Bradley IFVs, Stryker APCs, Avenger SAM systems, NASAMS air defense systems, AIM-9 missiles, AIM-120 AMRAAMs, counter battery radars, 155mm Excalibur artillery shells, Javelin anti-tank missiles , etc... Mostly came from USA. The Americans are the only country that can provide weapons of that quality in any large quantities.

3. USA is not located in Europe. One would expect Europe to rise up and meet this moment given that Russia is invading a country located on their continent. Some countries have stepped up significantly. Germany, Poland and Denmark come to mind immediately. Meanwhile, powers such as France, Britain and Italy haven't impressed me much with their support. Britain, for example, is set to donate less than half what Germany will this year, with an economy far greater than half Germany's size. France is set to do about the same. I think we have to look at the countries located in Europe before we can look at USA as being the problem.

Here is a comprehensive list of the military aid that USA has sent Ukraine at this point. Without that aid the war would likely already be lost. Nobody else has sent anywhere close to what's on this list, especially when you factor in both quality and quantity.

 
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