Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

[Woland]

Comparing the German invasion of the USSR with the Russian one of Ukraine is comparing apples and oranges, you know very well the situation is very different, however you like to view the situation with your rainbow colored glasses.
You know very well how the situation was with NATO expanding to Russian borders, with Ukraine bombarding and killing thousands of people and destroying homes of those people who were louder and louder about becoming independant.. yeah im not going into all that because you know it even tho you try your best to ignore it, or maybe the propaganda has taken its toll and blinded you?

Comparing Russia's invasion of Ukraine to WWII is accurate. In both cases, the defense of "ethnic" Germans/Russians was used as pretext for grabbing land. "Ukraine bombing and killing thousands of people" is a Russian propaganda narrative that has little basis in reality, and using it as pretext for the wider invasion makes even less sense; according to the UN, during Russia’s 2014-2021 military operations against Ukraine, 14,500 people died in Donbas. 3,404 were civilians (on both sides of fighting), 4,400 were Ukrainian servicemen and 6,500 were Russian militants.

If we break it down by year the picture is even more striking.

Commissioner for Human Rights in the Donetsk People’s Republic (an official pro-Russian source): military / civilian
2014: 2,546
2015: 1,395
2016: 348
2017: 278 / 32
2018: 154 / 19
2019: 160 / 9
2020: 44 / 5
2021: not reported

Claiming to have launched a war that resulted in 100,000s of deaths over something that had slowed down to such an extent that in the preceding 5 years there were 65 civilian deaths, is patently absurd. More people died from cows.

Furthermore, there was no "loud movement about becoming independent" in Donbas, just like there was no loud movement to become independent in neighboring Russian-speaking Kharkiv, where I'm from. The reality is that in both places a minority of society, heavily instigated by Russia, was interested in any semblance of independence.

We can discuss this war in practical terms, but stop regurgitating Russian propaganda about its actions having any moral basis.

 

[contricusc]

The problem I have with most posters in this thread is they are just plain biased, they completely condemn Russia for every single thing and call it the evil empire, power hungry and expansionist, attacking poor countries and civilians and being evil and cruel and horrible, and yet when the USA did the same things MANY times or when Israel did or DOES the same things MANY times its all ok and great and perfect, they are fighting for a just cause and are innocent and clean and are saving the poor country they are invading... man it just makes me vomit almost...

Most people who condemn Russia’s invasion of Ukraine also condemned the US invasion of Iraq and condemn Israel’s butchering of Palestinians.

But when it comes to US invasions and the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there are three big differnces:

1) A US invasion is quick and succesful in toppling the local government, so the conflict is short and there is not much anyone can do about it, so people stop complaining. When Russia managed to win the conflict in Georgia in a few days, nobody bothered, because they acted just like the US. But in Ukraine, they keep attacking for two years, and there is no end in sight.

2) The US doesn’t annex territories. It simply changes the government to a more friendly one, and that’s it. The US didn’t annex any territory in Serbia, Iraq or Afghanistan. See the difference here?

3) After the US invades and changes the government, the economic situation of the local population usually improves, so there is a trade off. The US supports governments that are pro-capitalism and generate a higher standard of living for their population. On the other hand, Russia always supports oligarchic dictators that keep the population in perpetual poverty with no end in sight. So that’s another big difference.

When the US invades a country, they change the regime and the war stops, and decades after the war people in that country live better than before.

When Russia invades a country, it wants to annex its terriotry and to make sure its people are enslaved and in poverty in perpetuity, so the desire of the people to rebel never goes away.

 

[Spitfire9]

Comparing the German invasion of the USSR with the Russian one of Ukraine is comparing apples and oranges, you know very well the situation is very different, however you like to view the situation with your rainbow colored glasses.
You know very well how the situation was with NATO expanding to Russian borders, with Ukraine bombarding and killing thousands of people and destroying homes of those people who were louder and louder about becoming independant.. yeah im not going into all that because you know it even tho you try your best to ignore it, or maybe the propaganda has taken its toll and blinded you?
Russia was very clear about their stance regarding all of this and yet the west ignored it completely even tho they very clearly stated countless times what will happen if NATO continues on this path.
So don't pretend to ignore it.
Do I support Russia's invasion of Ukraine and going all in? Of course not, but to say they have not warned countless times what will happen if certain things keep getting ignored by the west is plain ignorant, NATO basically provoked this war, it was completely preventable.

The only thing you can possibly argue here is the fact that a neighbouring country should have such influence on another independant country, but sadly that argument fails because Russia is a nuclear superpower so they have their interests and say in those things whether you like it or not, just like the USA and other superpowers have their say in those things and influence.
If Ukraine for example brutally bombards civilians who want to have independance and Russia just decides to abuse this situation to launch an invasion after the west ignored countless warnings of this then its no different than the USA launching countless invasions on independant countries in the past 70 years by using the same excuses and arguments than Russia has this time.

The problem I have with most posters in this thread is they are just plain biased, they completely condemn Russia for every single thing and call it the evil empire, power hungry and expansionist, attacking poor countries and civilians and being evil and cruel and horrible, and yet when the USA did the same things MANY times or when Israel did or DOES the same things MANY times its all ok and great and perfect, they are fighting for a just cause and are innocent and clean and are saving the poor country they are invading... man it just makes me vomit almost...

Sow hat did I get wrong there in talking about countries invading other countries? Germany invaded Russia. Russia defended itself. Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine defended itself.

Did I approve of Ukraine's shift away from Russia? Whether I did or not is irrelevant. Exercising free choice in its foreign policy It is part of a country's sovereignty.

Please stop being presumptuous in sticking the tag 'blinded by propaganda ' on me or accusing me of wearing 'rainbow colored glasses' . In the past I lived with people who studied for years in Moscow. I worked with someone who had been Putin's secretary/PA before he became president. My sadly departed partner lived in Moscow for 2 or 3 years. More recently (Putin era but before Russia invaded), I spent thousands of hours in a long distance relationship with a Russian artist who lived in Moscow.

I don't condemn Russia for everything. I do condemn Putin and his rotten political system and the corruption with which it is infected. My partner told me a bit about the place. She ended up having to flee the country. I cannot imagine any right thinking person in Europe wanting their country to be taken over by Russia.