Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

[Woland]

Comparing the German invasion of the USSR with the Russian one of Ukraine is comparing apples and oranges, you know very well the situation is very different, however you like to view the situation with your rainbow colored glasses.
You know very well how the situation was with NATO expanding to Russian borders, with Ukraine bombarding and killing thousands of people and destroying homes of those people who were louder and louder about becoming independant.. yeah im not going into all that because you know it even tho you try your best to ignore it, or maybe the propaganda has taken its toll and blinded you?

Comparing Russia's invasion of Ukraine to WWII is accurate. In both cases, the defense of "ethnic" Germans/Russians was used as pretext for grabbing land. "Ukraine bombing and killing thousands of people" is a Russian propaganda narrative that has little basis in reality, and using it as pretext for the wider invasion makes even less sense; according to the UN, during Russia’s 2014-2021 military operations against Ukraine, 14,500 people died in Donbas. 3,404 were civilians (on both sides of fighting), 4,400 were Ukrainian servicemen and 6,500 were Russian militants.

If we break it down by year the picture is even more striking.

Commissioner for Human Rights in the Donetsk People’s Republic (an official pro-Russian source): military / civilian
2014: 2,546
2015: 1,395
2016: 348
2017: 278 / 32
2018: 154 / 19
2019: 160 / 9
2020: 44 / 5
2021: not reported

Claiming to have launched a war that resulted in 100,000s of deaths over something that had slowed down to such an extent that in the preceding 5 years there were 65 civilian deaths, is patently absurd. More people died from cows.

Furthermore, there was no "loud movement about becoming independent" in Donbas, just like there was no loud movement to become independent in neighboring Russian-speaking Kharkiv, where I'm from. The reality is that in both places a minority of society, heavily instigated by Russia, was interested in any semblance of independence.

We can discuss this war in practical terms, but stop regurgitating Russian propaganda about its actions having any moral basis.

 

[contricusc]

The problem I have with most posters in this thread is they are just plain biased, they completely condemn Russia for every single thing and call it the evil empire, power hungry and expansionist, attacking poor countries and civilians and being evil and cruel and horrible, and yet when the USA did the same things MANY times or when Israel did or DOES the same things MANY times its all ok and great and perfect, they are fighting for a just cause and are innocent and clean and are saving the poor country they are invading... man it just makes me vomit almost...

Most people who condemn Russia’s invasion of Ukraine also condemned the US invasion of Iraq and condemn Israel’s butchering of Palestinians.

But when it comes to US invasions and the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there are three big differnces:

1) A US invasion is quick and succesful in toppling the local government, so the conflict is short and there is not much anyone can do about it, so people stop complaining. When Russia managed to win the conflict in Georgia in a few days, nobody bothered, because they acted just like the US. But in Ukraine, they keep attacking for two years, and there is no end in sight.

2) The US doesn’t annex territories. It simply changes the government to a more friendly one, and that’s it. The US didn’t annex any territory in Serbia, Iraq or Afghanistan. See the difference here?

3) After the US invades and changes the government, the economic situation of the local population usually improves, so there is a trade off. The US supports governments that are pro-capitalism and generate a higher standard of living for their population. On the other hand, Russia always supports oligarchic dictators that keep the population in perpetual poverty with no end in sight. So that’s another big difference.

When the US invades a country, they change the regime and the war stops, and decades after the war people in that country live better than before.

When Russia invades a country, it wants to annex its terriotry and to make sure its people are enslaved and in poverty in perpetuity, so the desire of the people to rebel never goes away.

 

[Spitfire9]

Comparing the German invasion of the USSR with the Russian one of Ukraine is comparing apples and oranges, you know very well the situation is very different, however you like to view the situation with your rainbow colored glasses.
You know very well how the situation was with NATO expanding to Russian borders, with Ukraine bombarding and killing thousands of people and destroying homes of those people who were louder and louder about becoming independant.. yeah im not going into all that because you know it even tho you try your best to ignore it, or maybe the propaganda has taken its toll and blinded you?
Russia was very clear about their stance regarding all of this and yet the west ignored it completely even tho they very clearly stated countless times what will happen if NATO continues on this path.
So don't pretend to ignore it.
Do I support Russia's invasion of Ukraine and going all in? Of course not, but to say they have not warned countless times what will happen if certain things keep getting ignored by the west is plain ignorant, NATO basically provoked this war, it was completely preventable.

The only thing you can possibly argue here is the fact that a neighbouring country should have such influence on another independant country, but sadly that argument fails because Russia is a nuclear superpower so they have their interests and say in those things whether you like it or not, just like the USA and other superpowers have their say in those things and influence.
If Ukraine for example brutally bombards civilians who want to have independance and Russia just decides to abuse this situation to launch an invasion after the west ignored countless warnings of this then its no different than the USA launching countless invasions on independant countries in the past 70 years by using the same excuses and arguments than Russia has this time.

The problem I have with most posters in this thread is they are just plain biased, they completely condemn Russia for every single thing and call it the evil empire, power hungry and expansionist, attacking poor countries and civilians and being evil and cruel and horrible, and yet when the USA did the same things MANY times or when Israel did or DOES the same things MANY times its all ok and great and perfect, they are fighting for a just cause and are innocent and clean and are saving the poor country they are invading... man it just makes me vomit almost...

So what did I get wrong there in talking about countries invading other countries? Germany invaded Russia. Russia defended itself. Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine defended itself.

Did I approve of Ukraine's shift away from Russia? Whether I did or not is irrelevant. Exercising free choice in its foreign policy It is part of a country's sovereignty.

Please stop being presumptuous in sticking the tag 'blinded by propaganda ' on me or accusing me of wearing 'rainbow colored glasses' . In the past I lived with people who studied for years in Moscow. I worked with someone who had been Putin's secretary/PA before he became president. My sadly departed partner lived in Moscow for 2 or 3 years. More recently (Putin era but before Russia invaded), I spent thousands of hours in a long distance relationship with a Russian artist who lived in Moscow.

I don't condemn Russia for everything. I do condemn Putin and his rotten political system and the corruption with which it is infected. My partner told me a bit about the place. She ended up having to flee the country. I cannot imagine any right thinking person in Europe wanting their country to be taken over by Russia.

 

[Anastasius]

Comparing the German invasion of the USSR with the Russian one of Ukraine is comparing apples and oranges, you know very well the situation is very different, however you like to view the situation with your rainbow colored glasses.

Actually in this case it's a perfect comparison. Much like your sort defend Russia's invasion as a sort of "preemptive defensive operation", Nazi sympathizers have also defended Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union as a preemptive strike because the USSR was supposedly planning to invade Germany.

Nice company you're keeping there.

 

[FiReFTW]

Actually in this case it's a perfect comparison. Much like your sort defend Russia's invasion as a sort of "preemptive defensive operation", Nazi sympathizers have also defended Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union as a preemptive strike because the USSR was supposedly planning to invade Germany.

Nice company you're keeping there.

Maybe you should read my post before claiming I defend Russia's invasion, read it carefully first before replying.

 

[FiReFTW]

So what did I get wrong there in talking about countries invading other countries? Germany invaded Russia. Russia defended itself. Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine defended itself.

Did I approve of Ukraine's shift away from Russia? Whether I did or not is irrelevant. Exercising free choice in its foreign policy It is part of a country's sovereignty.

Please stop being presumptuous in sticking the tag 'blinded by propaganda ' on me or accusing me of wearing 'rainbow colored glasses' . In the past I lived with people who studied for years in Moscow. I worked with someone who had been Putin's secretary/PA before he became president. My sadly departed partner lived in Moscow for 2 or 3 years. More recently (Putin era but before Russia invaded), I spent thousands of hours in a long distance relationship with a Russian artist who lived in Moscow.

I don't condemn Russia for everything. I do condemn Putin and his rotten political system and the corruption with which it is infected. My partner told me a bit about the place. She ended up having to flee the country. I cannot imagine any right thinking person in Europe wanting their country to be taken over by Russia.

So no comment about the USA and Israel and other nations doing the same over the past 70 years which is awesome, they are liberators and good guys and have the right to invade a country, change governments, bombard civilians and do whatever they want with independent countries right, while Russia is the evil empire... Oh well ok you didn't say Russia you said Putin and his politics, not much different.

 

[FiReFTW]

Comparing Russia's invasion of Ukraine to WWII is accurate. In both cases, the defense of "ethnic" Germans/Russians was used as pretext for grabbing land. "Ukraine bombing and killing thousands of people" is a Russian propaganda narrative that has little basis in reality, and using it as pretext for the wider invasion makes even less sense; according to the UN, during Russia’s 2014-2021 military operations against Ukraine, 14,500 people died in Donbas. 3,404 were civilians (on both sides of fighting), 4,400 were Ukrainian servicemen and 6,500 were Russian militants.

If we break it down by year the picture is even more striking.

Commissioner for Human Rights in the Donetsk People’s Republic (an official pro-Russian source): military / civilian
2014: 2,546
2015: 1,395
2016: 348
2017: 278 / 32
2018: 154 / 19
2019: 160 / 9
2020: 44 / 5
2021: not reported

Claiming to have launched a war that resulted in 100,000s of deaths over something that had slowed down to such an extent that in the preceding 5 years there were 65 civilian deaths, is patently absurd. More people died from cows.

Furthermore, there was no "loud movement about becoming independent" in Donbas, just like there was no loud movement to become independent in neighboring Russian-speaking Kharkiv, where I'm from. The reality is that in both places a minority of society, heavily instigated by Russia, was interested in any semblance of independence.

We can discuss this war in practical terms, but stop regurgitating Russian propaganda about its actions having any moral basis.

There was a large chunk of population that wanted independence, it doesn't matter if it was not the majority still a huge chunk wanted it, so many infact that it became a huge issue and problem, do you deny that?

And Ukraine acted and wanted to topple that, do you deny that?

And they did indeed kill civilians, as you also pointed out.

This is not so much about having moral basis, it's about Russia as a nuclear superpower warning NATO about getting closer to it's borders and not wanting Ukraine to become a part of NATO and the west ignoring this.

They were very clear about this.

As I said before you can claim all you want that Ukraine is independent and can make it's choices about everything but when you have a border with a nuclear superpower the world just doesn't work that way.

Is it fair? Probably not. Is it reality? Yes.

It's the same as the USA being a world superpower and enforcing many things upon many nations, if not they also invaded many in the past.

So you see US politics are no different than Russian politics or Chinese politics (only reason Taiwan is not invaded YET so far is the US In the region)

So you can claim all you want about Russia not having moral grounds or not having any say in Ukraine but that just isn't how the world works sorry.

And if you condemn Russia with all these accusations and horrible words then you have to have the b*lls to be the same with other countries doing the same like USA, Israel etc...

Otherwise you are just a hypocrite.

 

[blackjack]

Trump’s leadership key to quick resolution of Ukraine conflict, says Erdogan

"More weapons, more bombs, or more chaos will not end this war," the Turkish leader argued

tass.com

ANKARA, November 8. /TASS/. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan believes that it would be possible to resolve the Ukraine conflict quickly if the administration of US President-elect Donald Trump shows the necessary resolve and intention to do so.

"Efforts by some Western countries, led by the United States, to end the war in Ukraine would accelerate the conflict resolution process. <…> If we see that the US administration under Trump approaches this issue from a peaceful perspective, we can easily bring an end to this conflict," Anadolu news agency quoted Erdogan as telling his pool of reporters following his visits to Kyrgyzstan and Hungary.

"More weapons, more bombs, or more chaos will not end this war," the Turkish leader argued. "More dialogue, more diplomacy, and more compromise would open the door to peace," he said, recounting how Turkey has repeatedly brought the two conflicting sides to the negotiating table. "We have done so many times and we will do so again. This war must be ended now. As we focus our efforts to achieve peace, we will continue working in this direction," he concluded.

Putin’s congratulations to Trump can be viewed as official — spokesman

Russian President Vladimir Putin has congratulated Donald Trump on becoming the US president-elect at the plenary session of the Valdai International Discussion Club

tass.com

SOCHI, November 8. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin’s congratulations to Donald Trump on winning this year’s presidential election in the United States can be viewed as official, Presidential Press Secretary Dmitry Peskov said.

"Everything that the president says is official, of course," he said.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has congratulated Donald Trump on becoming the US president-elect at the plenary session of the Valdai International Discussion Club on November 7. "I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate him on his victory in the US presidential election. I have already said that we will work with any head of state who is trusted by the American people," the Russian leader said.

So far, the Russian leader has not yet sent a congratulatory letter to the president-elect

 

[Anastasius]

Maybe you should read my post before claiming I defend Russia's invasion, read it carefully first before replying.

You know very well how the situation was with NATO expanding to Russian borders, with Ukraine bombarding and killing thousands of people and destroying homes of those people who were louder and louder about becoming independant.. yeah im not going into all that because you know it even tho you try your best to ignore it, or maybe the propaganda has taken its toll and blinded you?
Russia was very clear about their stance regarding all of this and yet the west ignored it completely even tho they very clearly stated countless times what will happen if NATO continues on this path.
So don't pretend to ignore it.
Do I support Russia's invasion of Ukraine and going all in? Of course not, but to say they have not warned countless times what will happen if certain things keep getting ignored by the west is plain ignorant, NATO basically provoked this war, it was completely preventable.

Maybe you should re-read it first.

 

[Soldier30]

Video of the use of the Russian FPV drone "Prince Vandal Novgorodsky" in Ukraine, controlled via fiber optic cable. In the video, the FPV drone "Vandal" pursues and attacks a Ukrainian BMP-2 of Soviet manufacture, they are also used by the Russian army. Note that the driver-mechanic noticed the drone and is trying to take the combat vehicle away. The BMP-2 has a net as protection from drones on top, but the drone attacks the BMP in the stern. As a result of the drone attack, the BMP was destroyed, the fate of the crew is unknown. The video was filmed in the Pokrovsky direction.

 

[FiReFTW]

Maybe you should re-read it first.

Are you blind?

"Do I support Russia's invasion of Ukraine and going all in? Of course not"

 

[contricusc]

This is not so much about having moral basis, it's about Russia as a nuclear superpower warning NATO about getting closer to it's borders and not wanting Ukraine to become a part of NATO and the west ignoring this.

They were very clear about this.

They had no problem when Finalnd joined NATO, which is right next to St.Petersburg. I wonder why. Maybe it has to do with the fact that they couldn’t afford a second front and were afraid that NATO would actually come to defend Finalnd.

As I said before you can claim all you want that Ukraine is independent and can make it's choices about everything but when you have a border with a nuclear superpower the world just doesn't work that way.

For Finland it did work like that. They joined NATO without any repercussions despite having a big border with Russia.

And also for North Korea it worked just fine, they built nuclear weapons despite being surrounded by two nuclear superpowers.

It seems that if you have a strong enough military, you are allowed to make independent decisions even if you border a nuclear superpower. Only if that superpower believes you can be easily defeated (like Georgia or Ukraine) you lose the right to make your own decisions. Fortunately, Ukraine was not so easily defeated as Russia hoped.

 

[blackjack]

https://archive.ph/fXQwJ

Ukraine will begin calling up another 160,000 people to serve in its military, the secretary of Ukraine’s national security council, Oleksandr Lytvynenko, has told parliament. A security source separately told Agence France-Presse the recruitment would take place over three months.

This is what their requirement was before.

Ukraine military seeks extra 500,000 soldiers - President Zelensky

Ukraine's leader admits mobilisation is a sensitive and costly issue as the war with Russia nears two-year mark.

www.google.com

19 December 2023
Ukraine's military wants to mobilise up to 500,000 extra people, President Volodymyr Zelensky has revealed, as the war with Russia nears a two-year mark.

At a news conference in Kyiv, he said his commanders were seeking "450,000-500,000 individuals", admitting this was a "sensitive" and costly issue.

He said he needed more details before backing the move, hinting that 500,000 soldiers were already on the front.

 

[Anastasius]

Are you blind?

"Do I support Russia's invasion of Ukraine and going all in? Of course not"

My comment:

Much like your sort defend Russia's invasion as a sort of "preemptive defensive operation"

Your comments:

You know very well how the situation was with NATO expanding to Russian borders, with Ukraine bombarding and killing thousands of people and destroying homes of those people who were louder and louder about becoming independant.. yeah im not going into all that because you know it even tho you try your best to ignore it, or maybe the propaganda has taken its toll and blinded you?
Russia was very clear about their stance regarding all of this and yet the west ignored it completely even tho they very clearly stated countless times what will happen if NATO continues on this path.
So don't pretend to ignore it.
Do I support Russia's invasion of Ukraine and going all in? Of course not, but to say they have not warned countless times what will happen if certain things keep getting ignored by the west is plain ignorant, NATO basically provoked this war, it was completely preventable.

Sure looks like you're defending Russia's actions as a preemptive strike caused by NATO's actions.

 

[Woland]

There was a large chunk of population that wanted independence, it doesn't matter if it was not the majority still a huge chunk wanted it, so many infact that it became a huge issue and problem, do you deny that?

And Ukraine acted and wanted to topple that, do you deny that?

I see we have established and accepted that it wasn't a majority, but that somehow when a minority wants independence the majority should acquiesce. We live in a society of laws and norms, if a minority wants independence it has two choices: 1. move to a new country or 2. convince enough people until they become the majority and can influence elections. I'll reiterate; there was no independence movement in Donbas of any significance until Russian soldiers who pretended to be from Donbas were brought in. There was no huge issue, there was no huge problem.

But hey, if Italy ever invades Italian-speaking Switzerland because 500 people there were unhappy with the Swiss government, feel free to give Italy some extra land.

 

[blackjack]

I see we have established and accepted that it wasn't a majority, but that somehow when a minority wants independence the majority should acquiesce. We live in a society of laws and norms, if a minority wants independence it has two choices: 1. move to a new country or 2. convince enough people until they become the majority and can influence elections. I'll reiterate; there was no independence movement in Donbas of any significance until Russian soldiers who pretended to be from Donbas were brought in. There was no huge issue, there was no huge problem.

But hey, if Italy ever invades Italian-speaking Switzerland because 500 people there were unhappy with the Swiss government, feel free to give Italy some extra land.

I am pretty sure users in this forum including the Turkish government would be very vocal if the Syrians decided 1 day to massacre a Turkish population(turkmen) somewhere in Syria. Let's say it does happen and Turkey intervenes would you blame Turkey( I would be on Turkes side)?

 

[Rooxbar]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1854923883041734691

This one hit me hard. Some of the dumbest people alive are determining the fate of our world, holy fucking shit.

 

[SilverMachine]

One of Zelensky's guys saying the UK relationship's worse with the new guy than under Sunak, kinda interesting.

Yeah, I kinda figure the Europeans see the writing on the wall by now, Trump-win-or-no-Trump-win. They're not going to cut funding & weapons immediately on a dime, but this time a year from now this thing'll probably be wrapping up in Vlad's favor.

 

[blackjack]

The UK led the charge in aiding Ukraine and bullying other states to do the same. They're the problem. It was Boris Johnson who urged Zelensky's futile resistance after all, not Biden.The war will continue as long as the UK keeps being a spiteful little bitch of a country.

Ukraine as a whole functions on foreign money atm, after US stops sending gibs it'll collapse fast unless EU is stupid enough to print infinite Euros to prolong it (and I'm confident they are). Second, from what I heard Ukrainians deluded themselves that US is going to send boots on the ground aaany minute now, if Trump cuts that possibility away then morale will collapse. Third, after the war ends Russia will have to switch from wartime economy which will be a shitshow and they'd have millions of soldiers sitting on idle hands, so my prediction is that it's in nobody's interest to end it soon and it will drag on for a year more at least.

Why Volodymyr Zelensky may welcome Donald Trump’s victory

Disillusion with Joe Biden has reached deep levels

www.economist.com

"Ukraine is struggling to replace battlefield losses with conscription, barely hitting two-thirds of its target. A senior Ukrainian military commander admits that there has been a collapse in morale in some of the worst sections of the front. A source in the general staff suggests that nearly a fifth of soldiers have gone AWOL from their positions."

 

[Spitfire9]

This is not so much about having moral basis, it's about Russia as a nuclear superpower warning NATO about getting closer to it's borders and not wanting Ukraine to become a part of NATO and the west ignoring this.

They were very clear about this.

As I said before you can claim all you want that Ukraine is independent and can make it's choices about everything but when you have a border with a nuclear superpower the world just doesn't work that way.

Is it fair? Probably not. Is it reality? Yes.

Ukraine was never going to attack Russia, be it a member of NATO or not. Did Poland get invaded because it looked like it might join NATO? It is not for the Russians to dictate to other peoples what cultural or military relationships they are allowed to have. Nor for the US.

I am in favour of freedom and democracy remaining in Ukraine. Many countries claiming to support freedom and democracy ditch their support where they see a different course serving their national interest better. That is a curse on others.