Indonesia Casual Discussion Warkop Indonesia

[Gary]

J20 banyak orang bilang lebih slugish dibidang WVR, sayapnya itu kelihatan kecil kalau dibandingin badannya.

China sama sekali gak mengharap J20 buat dogfight, Gun aja gak punya.

From 0:40

Disini juga keliatan gesitnya lumayan

Kalau masalah kanon sih, keknya mereka lebih percaya kemampuan fox two mereka, yang notabene udah high off boresight.

 

[NEKO]

Kalau masalah kanon sih, keknya mereka lebih percaya kemampuan fox two mereka, yang notabene udah high off boresight.

Padahal US aja dulu kapok, sekarang aja F-22 dan F-35 tetep pake kanon.

 

[norman88]

Mengenai pespur gen 4 melawan gen 5 sih ga perlu banyak teori, udah sering dicoba hasil nya tetap sama.

Mau mendekat buat WVR ?

AU Jerman contohnya mengirim EF2000 latma dgn USAF (2012)

Two other German officers, Col. Andreas Pfeiffer and Maj. Marco Gumbrecht, noted in the same report that the F-22’s capabilities are “overwhelming” when it comes to modern, long-range combat as the stealth fighter is designed to engage multiple enemies well-beyond the pilot’s natural field of vision – mostly while the F-22 is still out of the other plane’s range.​

​

Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren’t able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.​

Report: F-22 Raptor Loses $79 Billion Advantage in Dogfights

F-22 Raptor dominated long-range fights, but "even" close up.

abcnews.go.com

Jadi jangan berharap banyak sih ,mengenai F-15EX head to head dengan pesawat VLO sekelas J-20/J-35, bukan kelasnya lagi. Lagipula kalaupun F-15EX "beruntung" bisa sampai merge, J-20 itu TWR nya lebih baik daripada F-15EX dengan mesin WS-15 (160kN+) dan dengan canard, low speed handling nya mungkin jauh lebih baik.

Dilatihan red flags biasanya pespur siluman hampir selalu memanfaatkan datalink dalam pertarungan jarak jauh/bvr, jarang mengaktifkan radar, jika F-22 mengaktifkan radar artinya posisinya sudah terekspos, mustahil EFT hanya bisa mendeteksi pada jarak 20 mile walau ditahun segitu kemungkinan masih versi trance 2.
belum soal IRST, max range IRST pespur EFT adalah 166 km, jadi kemungkinan saat itu EFT tidak menggunakan IRST untuk melacak F-22 tapi menggunakan radar.
"The RAND Corporation reports ranges of 50 nm (93 km) to a subsonic target from the front and up to 90 nm from the rear of a subsonic target.[12]".

EuroFIRST PIRATE - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Dan soal F-15 EX vs pespur siluman, gak bisa dipungkiri pespur siluman memang lebih diuntungkan, tapi gak serta merta pespur non siluman auto kalah kalau saling berhadapan, terutama dalam battle one on one.

Contohnya, IRST legion yg akan dipasang di F-15 EX memungkinkan pespur ini memandu missile bvr 160 km yakni aim-120D tanpa radar dan tanpa batasan RCS. Dan berdasarkan statement dari website LM diversi kedua nanti range nya akan meningkat, kemungkinan akan memakai missile bvr aim-260 jatm yg range nya mencapai 200 km lebih.

5 Reasons IRST21 Is Revolutionizing The Battlespace

As our military service women and men assess the growing threat in the Pacific, they require a capability that keep them safe in any battle environment.

www.lockheedmartin.com

kemudian tentang RWR, pespur siluman yang dikembangkan 20 tahun yang lalu yakni F-22 mempunyai range 463 km "It was described by Tom Burbage, former F-22 program head at Lockheed Martin, as 'the most technically complex piece of equipment on the aircraft.' It has a greater range (250+ nmi) than the radar, allowing the F-22 to limit its own radar emissions to maximise stealth". https://warriorlodge.com/pages/lockheed-martin-f-22-raptor

Dan di website official Bae systems F-15 EX dikatakan "Leverages digital EW technology from fifth-generation fighter aircraft". jadi at least range RWR F-15 EX tidak akan jauh dari range RWR F-22. https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/eagle-passive-active-warning-survivability-system-epawss
Jadi, katika pespur siluman seperti J-20 mengaktifkan radarnya, F-15 EX bisa mendeteksinya dari jarak ratusan km.

Kesimpulannya, pespur siluman tidak bisa serta merta dikatakan auto win saat berhadapan dengan pespur non siluman, apalagi pespur non siluman dengan isian teknologi mutakhir seperti F-15 EX.

 

[R4duga]

Padahal US aja dulu kapok, sekarang aja F-22 dan F-35 tetep pake kanon.

still a good addition if met with low speed aerial targets, turboprop planes, helicopter, or giving a limited CAS strafing fire.

 

[Gary]

Dilatihan red flags biasanya pespur siluman hampir selalu memanfaatkan datalink dalam pertarungan jarak jauh/bvr, jarang mengaktifkan radar, jika F-22 mengaktifkan radar artinya posisinya sudah terekspos, mustahil EFT hanya bisa mendeteksi pada jarak 20 mile walau ditahun segitu kemungkinan masih versi trance 2.
belum soal IRST, max range IRST pespur EFT adalah 166 km, jadi kemungkinan saat itu EFT tidak menggunakan IRST untuk melacak F-22 tapi menggunakan radar.
"The RAND Corporation reports ranges of 50 nm (93 km) to a subsonic target from the front and up to 90 nm from the rear of a subsonic target.[12]".

EuroFIRST PIRATE - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Eurofighter Jerman tidak dilengkapi IRST Pirate. Lagipula IRST itu bisa dipengaruhi kondisi cuaca meskipun variatif efek gangguannya. Trus FoV nya haru diliat apakah dalam wide atau narrow FoV. OLS-35 di Su-35 contohnya itu instant FoV nya cuman di angka 10 derajat x 7,5 derajat.

Dan soal F-15 EX vs pespur siluman, gak bisa dipungkiri pespur siluman memang lebih diuntungkan, tapi gak serta merta pespur non siluman auto kalah kalau saling berhadapan, terutama dalam battle one on one.

Agree to disagree, tapi kalaupun iya, ini kan irrelevan, PLAAF ga akan ngirim J-20 sendiri mereka untuk head to head. PLA itu lebih ngerti systems warfare daripada TNI, jadi aneh aja kalau kita berasumsi PLAAF bakal ngirim J-20 mereka sendiri by one, sedangkan doktrin tempur PLA itu didesain untuk melumpuhkan lawan dalam sistem.

Contohnya, IRST legion yg akan dipasang di F-15 EX memungkinkan pespur ini memandu missile bvr 160 km yakni aim-120D tanpa radar dan tanpa batasan RCS. Dan berdasarkan statement dari website LM diversi kedua nanti range nya akan meningkat, kemungkinan akan memakai missile bvr aim-260 jatm yg range nya mencapai 200 km lebih.

5 Reasons IRST21 Is Revolutionizing The Battlespace

As our military service women and men assess the growing threat in the Pacific, they require a capability that keep them safe in any battle environment.

www.lockheedmartin.com

Again untuk mengarahkan LRAAM, si F-15 harus tau dulu apakah ada J-20 atau tidak, dan radar masih alat terbaik untuk mengendus sasaran jauh. Ini belum berbicara kalau kedua-duanya sama-sama punya radar dan RWR, tentu yang terdeteksi lebih dulu tergantung

1. Kemampouan LPI radar masing-masing
2. RCS indiviudal

Kalau LPI itu sih tebbak-tebakkan, menurut w ya Amerika masih unggul, tapi kalau RCS ? jelas kan siapa yang bakal diendus dulu.

J-20 punya yang IRST sensor yang (mungkin) lebih canggih lagi, fotokopi AN/AAQ-37 DAS namanya EORD-31 DAS...seberapa dekat kemampuannya dengan DAS original ? ya ndak tau juga, tapi karena ini sifatnya distributed di diseluruh badan pesawat jadi notabene situational awareness nya pun natural lebih baik daripada F-15EX walaupun dengan IRST Legion.

kemudian tentang RWR, pespur siluman yang dikembangkan 20 tahun yang lalu yakni F-22 mempunyai range 463 km "It was described by Tom Burbage, former F-22 program head at Lockheed Martin, as 'the most technically complex piece of equipment on the aircraft.' It has a greater range (250+ nmi) than the radar, allowing the F-22 to limit its own radar emissions to maximise stealth". https://warriorlodge.com/pages/lockheed-martin-f-22-raptor

Radar AESA itu rata-rata punya LPI scan mode, untuk jaga-jaga anggep aja radar J-20 kecanggihan LPI nya mendekati radar anyar Amerika. RWR bakalan susah juga kalau yang diendus radar LPI. Dan karena ini AESA berarti frequency hopping nya juga bakal lebih cepat dari radar doppler biasa.

An AESA radar will typically change its frequency with every pulse, generally using a random sequence, making it harder to jam. The simultaneous use of multiple frequencies makes life harder for radar warning receivers and electronic surveillance (ES) systems.​

AESA radars can also spread their signal emissions across a wider range of frequencies, which makes them more difficult to detect over background noise. The fact that an AESA does not have a fixed pulse repetition frequency makes it a low-probability of intercept (LPI) radar – ‘stealthier’ than conventional fighter radars.​

​

An AESA radar can also use adaptive power management, using no more transmitting power than is needed to obtain the required information for each individual target – resulting in a further reduced probability of the radar’s signals being intercepted by hostile forces.​

​

AESA does it...or does it? | Times Aerospace

www.timesaerospace.aero

​

​

Sekali lagi buat jaga-jaga, anggep aja radar AESA J-20 Karakteristik LPI nya udah mendekati Amerika.

Dan di website official Bae systems F-15 EX dikatakan "Leverages digital EW technology from fifth-generation fighter aircraft". jadi at least range RWR F-15 EX tidak akan jauh dari range RWR F-22. https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/eagle-passive-active-warning-survivability-system-epawss
Jadi, katika pespur siluman seperti J-20 mengaktifkan radarnya, F-15 EX bisa mendeteksinya dari jarak ratusan km.

Kesimpulannya, pespur siluman tidak bisa serta merta dikatakan auto win saat berhadapan dengan pespur non siluman, apalagi pespur non siluman dengan isian teknologi mutakhir seperti F-15 EX.

Memang tidak mungkin selalu menang, tapi rasio kill nya sudah pasti melonjak.

Apakah tank Leopard 2 akan auto win jika berhadapan dengan T-55 ? ya belum tentu.

 

[Umigami]

Btw, itu Anies x Muhaimin beneran?

Gimana kalau mercy gabung gerindra aja terus majuin pasangan full militer aja?

Aman dah tuh suara mayoritas anak formil

 

[norman88]

Eurofighter Jerman tidak dilengkapi IRST Pirate. Lagipula IRST itu bisa dipengaruhi kondisi cuaca meskipun variatif efek gangguannya. Trus FoV nya haru diliat apakah dalam wide atau narrow FoV. OLS-35 di Su-35 contohnya itu instant FoV nya cuman di angka 10 derajat x 7,5 derajat.


Agree to disagree, tapi kalaupun iya, ini kan irrelevan, PLAAF ga akan ngirim J-20 sendiri mereka untuk head to head. PLA itu lebih ngerti systems warfare daripada TNI, jadi aneh aja kalau kita berasumsi PLAAF bakal ngirim J-20 mereka sendiri by one, sedangkan doktrin tempur PLA itu didesain untuk melumpuhkan lawan dalam sistem.


Again untuk mengarahkan LRAAM, si F-15 harus tau dulu apakah ada J-20 atau tidak, dan radar masih alat terbaik untuk mengendus sasaran jauh. Ini belum berbicara kalau kedua-duanya sama-sama punya radar dan RWR, tentu yang terdeteksi lebih dulu tergantung

1. Kemampouan LPI radar masing-masing
2. RCS indiviudal

Kalau LPI itu sih tebbak-tebakkan, menurut w ya Amerika masih unggul, tapi kalau RCS ? jelas kan siapa yang bakal diendus dulu.

J-20 punya yang IRST sensor yang (mungkin) lebih canggih lagi, fotokopi AN/AAQ-37 DAS namanya EORD-31 DAS...seberapa dekat kemampuannya dengan DAS original ? ya ndak tau juga, tapi karena ini sifatnya distributed di diseluruh badan pesawat jadi notabene situational awareness nya pun natural lebih baik daripada F-15EX walaupun dengan IRST Legion.

Radar AESA itu rata-rata punya LPI scan mode, untuk jaga-jaga anggep aja radar J-20 kecanggihan LPI nya mendekati radar anyar Amerika. RWR bakalan susah juga kalau yang diendus radar LPI. Dan karena ini AESA berarti frequency hopping nya juga bakal lebih cepat dari radar doppler biasa.

An AESA radar will typically change its frequency with every pulse, generally using a random sequence, making it harder to jam. The simultaneous use of multiple frequencies makes life harder for radar warning receivers and electronic surveillance (ES) systems.​

AESA radars can also spread their signal emissions across a wider range of frequencies, which makes them more difficult to detect over background noise. The fact that an AESA does not have a fixed pulse repetition frequency makes it a low-probability of intercept (LPI) radar – ‘stealthier’ than conventional fighter radars.​

​

An AESA radar can also use adaptive power management, using no more transmitting power than is needed to obtain the required information for each individual target – resulting in a further reduced probability of the radar’s signals being intercepted by hostile forces.​

​

AESA does it...or does it? | Times Aerospace

www.timesaerospace.aero

​

​

Sekali lagi buat jaga-jaga, anggep aja radar AESA J-20 Karakteristik LPI nya udah mendekati Amerika.

Memang tidak mungkin selalu menang, tapi rasio kill nya sudah pasti melonjak.

Apakah tank Leopard 2 akan auto win jika berhadapan dengan T-55 ? ya belum tentu.

Masih agak skeptis dengan kemampuan avionik dan EW pespur buatan China, kalau dibandingkan sama US yg udah mature ya jauh kayaknya, bahkan dibandingkan sama Rusia yg notabene "agak ketinggalan" secara teknologi.
Kalau dicompare urutannya menurutku, US > Eropa > Rusia > China.

 

[norman88]

Btw, itu Anies x Muhaimin beneran?

Gimana kalau mercy gabung gerindra aja terus majuin pasangan full militer aja?

Aman dah tuh suara mayoritas anak formil

Padahal ngarepnya Ganjar - Andika, Prabowo - Erik, Anies - AHY. Setidaknya ada satu yg wakilin militer siapapun yg terpilih.

 

[Lordimperator]

Btw, itu Anies x Muhaimin beneran?

Gimana kalau mercy gabung gerindra aja terus majuin pasangan full militer aja?

Aman dah tuh suara mayoritas anak formil

easy choice for all in then.
Demokrat: Dan terjadi lagi...

 

[schuimpjes]

On Recent Years Relatively Bigger Garuda Shield Exercises

One of US strategy now is ‘campaigning’, which means based on the NDS 2022 as “the conduct and sequencing of logically–linked military activities to achieve strategy–aligned objectives over time”, maybe this words hard to understand, but USAPAC has made it simple, “linking tactical action - exercises, experiments, and theater security activity - to generate military effects,” same meaning, but with different words can make us understand lol.

Why I’m talking about this, to make us understand why recently our joint exercises with them is important for them, the US, and I can see it that our country actually with them. Exercise is not only exercise, it is a show of force to shows “potential adversaries” what the forces are capable of, so basically deterring them in the peacetime, which also part of campaigning.

And about deterrence, back in the Cold War, to deter, used deterrence by punishment, for example, using nuclear weapons, “you do that, I do this to punish you”. Recently, that very NDS 2022 started to using the term deterrence by denial, simply to deter the adversaries that they not gonna success with efforts they do, in the battlefield for example.

BTW, CNAS has great paragraph that would open my mind about joint US–Indonesia exercises of Humanitarian Assistance/Disaster Relief (HA/DR) would not just about that, but also about OMP (Operasi Militer untuk Perang) lol, sumpah iseng banget tulisannya menurutku.

“Exercises practicing warfighting missions do not need to be publicly linked to warfighting or framed as preparation for a potential conflict. The goal of cam- paigning activities is to enhance deterrence rather than undermine stability. Exercises that practice relevant warfighting skills may be conducted under other auspices. For example, the ability to conduct resupply into damaged airfields would likely be beneficial during a potential conflict with China or Russia. But this ability could be equally relevant to humanitarian assistance/ disaster relief (HA/DR) efforts. An exercise practicing these skills could therefore be conducted under the banner of HA/DR.”

Open for comment

 

[schuimpjes]

I think we need to see closely Biden visit to Vietnam to meet with Communist Party of Vietnam’s General Secretary early September, I think it would be interesting.

Eventhough US is in favor of democracies, but in some regions like Middle East and Southeast Asia which has many one man or one party authoritarian governments, the US pull that back a bit for the sake of bigger concerns. Vietnam is not a democracy for sure, a one–party top down state. Glad their economy are not fully centralized to state anymore like how communist do with the economy that commonly understand.

It will be good to see US and Vietnam relations to closer, no matter what. Maybe, military side, the US can start to ‘campaigning’ in Vietnam against PRC for the sake of regional stability and lessen the tensions between PRC and Vietnam, the China deterred by US vessels and stop getting closer lol, for more peaceful world, and happy as the endpoint. Don’t take happy for granted, it is precious.

 

[schuimpjes]

Want to know how to spot Indonesian Airmen around personnel of other branches of TNI or Polri? Wristwatch on the right hand.

They encouraged to do that on training, practically important for the ‘Sierra’ (callsign for student pilot in IDAF). They can’t take off their left hand from yoke or stick of their trainer aircraft (they sit left side in side by side aircraft), while right hand is freer, but sure, still need to standby in throttle. Using right hand to do just basically anything, rotating a knob to set altimeter, leaning air-fuel mixture on cruising, and small things that maybe someone who never flown an aircraft thinking not important, set a good trim (especially in non–electrical trim aircraft like old Bravo or Mescalero for example), etc, including looking at their watch.

BTW, without you trimming the aircraft, your yoke or stick control would be heavy, you may can’t even maintain your altitude in straight and level flight, usually the aircraft will climbing because you already have the speed which creates lift. You have to maintain the pitch in cruising attitude, so push forward a bit, and without trim is torture, you will feel how disgusting you are, can’t even make aircraft maintain its altitude.

 

[NEKO]

It will be good to see US and Vietnam relations to closer, no matter what.

Yes, militarily and diplomatically.
But economically tentunya USA-Indonesia takes priority wkwk.

Vietnam could become the front line against China, but their equipment is not compatible with most of the potential Arms supplier/donor (US, AUS, JP, etc).
Vietnam should start buying NATO standard stuff.

 

[Parry Brima]

Btw, itu Anies x Muhaimin beneran?

Gimana kalau mercy gabung gerindra aja terus majuin pasangan full militer aja?

Aman dah tuh suara mayoritas anak formil

Jd inget dl anak sini ada yg blg sejarah membuktikan siapapun yg didukung PKB pasti jd presiden. Dia blg gitu wkt PKB msh gabung Gerindra/Prabowo.

Skrg postulate itu msh berlaku ga ya....

 

[schuimpjes]

But economically tentunya USA-Indonesia takes priority wkwk

Oops, but looks like about recent technology which means big money, Vietnam is more experienced than us.

“The agreement will allow for new bilateral collaboration that will boost Vietnam’s efforts to develop its high technology sector in areas including semiconductor production and artificial intelligence.”

Biden to sign strategic partnership deal with Vietnam in latest bid to counter China in the region

The new strategic partnership agreement opens the door to closer diplomatic, economic and technological cooperation with former foe — and China’s neighbor — Hanoi.

www.politico.com

Vinfast, Samsung facilities, etc are not joke

 

[NEKO]

Oops, but looks like about recent technology which means big money, Vietnam is more experienced than us.

“The agreement will allow for new bilateral collaboration that will boost Vietnam’s efforts to develop its high technology sector in areas including semiconductor production and artificial intelligence.”



Vinfast, Samsung facilities, etc are not joke

Mengsedih.

 

[schuimpjes]

Mengsedih.

People can tell a joke that communist states economically suck blablabla, but when communist countries start to change and using market economy, they know how to use that very well, see PRC and Vietnam. USSR’s Perestroika not count lol.

 

[chibiyabi]

People can tell a joke that communist states economically suck blablabla, but when communist countries start to change and using market economy, they know how to use that very well, see PRC and Vietnam. USSR’s Perestroika not count lol.

the benefit of collective leadership under communist party..

 

[schuimpjes]

the benefit of collective leadership under communist party..

Those who against the state (means party or worst, person even) will be slashed. Better die than living uniformly like a robot, just can only bow down to top–down system like that, for that’s not living.

For some people maybe they used with that, they living in totalitarianism of religion day by day, from wake up to sleep, and they cannot do anything about that. From state like that means nothing for them maybe.

 

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1697460974666862980