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chibiyabi

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Sigh .... I just wants to make a reminder here ....
During the early days of the caliphs . All the 4 caliphs were nominated and elected by the companion/pseudo senates . Were that was a democracy ?? I do not know .... All i know was every leader was emerge from a masses consent and approval hence the ease of implementation proces of all caliph's policy . you all could argue 'till the kingdom come abot which was and not ... But , the examples is there

*I will be back in my corner again along with my kapal api + samsu refill ...☕
And hopely @NEKO will share some of his popcorn ....
true.. the inventor of democracy concept is the first and the best Muhammad followers, but power temtations was and always bigest problem for moslem n humankind..something that already solve by the taliban
 

chibiyabi

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No that's not a democracy. The first four Caliph get their post either through shura or testament/will from previously deceased caliph.

One of the misunderstandings that most contemporary Muslims fell into, me including for a very LONG time is that democracy = shura.

Democracy is a system where it's the people who have the final say (theoretically), a shura doesn't work that way. The shura is basically the elders and the most capable men available to the state to discuss things that otherwise can't be solved by looking at the Qur'an and Sunna. Such as...what to do after the prophet is dead. Because the Qur'an and Sunna never actually said what to do and who to fill the position of Muhammad as a head of state after he died. The Shura council that emerge in Saqifa didn't ask for the opinion of commoners in markets to determine that Abu Bakr would fill the position let alone ask people to vote for it.

In a democracy, even people with no advance knowledge of the affairs of the state (tukang bakso, preman, tukang las etc...) could determine who will take charge of the state.

Saying that Shura= democracy because there's some semblance of vote in the shura is like saying marriage (nikah) is the same as free sex because in both cases there's an act of sexual intercourse. Of course, it's not the same.
you should learn what we call deliberation to reach consensus "musyawarah untuk Mufakat", semua ide itu bisa dari siapa saja, keluar dari forum, pesan dari pendahulu, tapi keputusan yang dilaksanakan itu atas keputusan bersama. mufakat. thats democracy. real is

note : when i wrote this mesaage i don't even scroll the page or even red what ID ravager said
 
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schuimpjes

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musyawarah untuk Mufakat
@Gary also for this actually, but only between the so called experts, like Iranian Assembly of Experts that choosing the Supreme Leader. Practically, that not representing anyone but Iranians with ‘79 Revolution ideas. No simple freedom of expression even.
 

schuimpjes

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The best example right now is Swiss direct democracy on their cantonal level. Federally also based, the Federal Assembly chose 7 people to Federal Council and president position would be changed for 1 year between the Federal Council members. Lessen the potential for abuse of power.
 

Gary

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true.. the inventor of democracy concept is the first and the best Muhammad
No, Islam is introduced to mankind to destroy the kind of madness that is democracy. This is why Muhammad preached and fought in the first place.

Do not mix falsehood with the truth, water and oil can't mix so is Islam and democracy.

you should learn what we call deliberation to reach consensus "musyawarah untuk Mufakat", semua ide itu bisa dari siapa saja, keluar dari forum, pesan dari pendahulu, tapi keputusan yang dilaksanakan itu atas keputusan bersama. mufakat. thats democracy. real is

note : when i wrote this mesaage i don't even scroll the page or even red what ID ravager said

Nope, not the same. The idea of democracy is basically a rejection of god. It was in Athens that humans first came up with the idea that people shall rule and be obeyed on top of people when most of the world at the time realized that there was a more powerful deity (god) that must be worshipped and obeyed.

Demos and kratos literally meant people governing people. This is the direct anti-thesis of Islam which stated that god is the sovereign of all. and we are (in the words of the Quran) his literal SLAVE.

  • SO if democracy makes people rule on top of people
  • THEN Islam makes God rule on top of people

On the very basic level, there's an extreme difference between the two. I still couldn't figure it out why people still maksa to argue that they're the same.

In a democracy humans (plural) are the god that people worship. While Islam is mono theistic in nature.
 

Lordimperator

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If this could turn into a war that would be great. That will tax the Americans even more.

I endorse this
lmao, who the hell thinking it would be nice idea get in chopper during thick fog
also
1716185389760.png
 
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schuimpjes

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Nope, not the same. The idea of democracy is basically a rejection of god. It was in Athens that humans first came up with the idea that people shall rule and be obeyed on top of people when most of the world at the time realized that there was a more powerful deity (god) that must be worshipped and obeyed.

Demos and kratos literally meant people governing people. This is the direct anti-thesis of Islam which stated that god is the sovereign of all. and we are (in the words of the Quran) his literal SLAVE.

  • SO if democracy makes people rule on top of people
  • THEN Islam makes God rule on top of people

On the very basic level, there's an extreme difference between the two. I still couldn't figure it out why people still maksa to argue that they're the same.

In a democracy humans (plural) are the god that people worship. While Islam is mono theistic in nature.
The vibe of theocrat
Plus, Al-Maidah 5:44
 

Gary

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The vibe of theocrat
Plus, Al-Maidah 5:44

Thinking about it, this guy has a point. Humans shall not make other humans his slave (of his whims) which is what democracy is all about.

In a democracy, these peoples (politicians)

59481863-10949759-image-a-5_1656082629338.jpg


makes these people (the common man), fight each other

buruh-kasar-ecf2-dom.jpg


so that they could advance their personal ambitions (and fortune) in this kind of room

Chamber-US-House-of-Representatives-Washington-DC.jpg


which in turn came up with their laws (based on their whims) to even enhance their fortune

1300x.jpg


This is why democracy which calims itself to get rid of lordships and kings, ended up becoming a de-facto kingdom itself.


Islam prevents its followers to be literal pawns for these criminals. Like I said (for Muslims), the more you understand how the world works, the more appreciative you are towards Islam. It is designed to protect you from these kind of people.

“Wahai Abdurrahman bin Samurah, janganlah engkau meminta kepemimpinan. Karena jika engkau diberi tanpa memintanya, niscaya engkau akan ditolong (oleh Allah dengan diberi taufik kepada kebenaran). Namun jika diserahkan kepadamu karena permintaanmu, niscaya akan dibebankan kepadamu (tidak akan ditolong).”

Hadits ini diriwayatkan Al-Imam Bukhari dalam Shahih-nya no. 7146


Isn't begging for leadership a part of democracy ?

489525_04505204122023_WhatsApp_Image_2023-12-04_at_16.14.18_6f5c7231.jpg
 

schuimpjes

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Thinking about it, this guy has a point. Humans shall not make other humans his slave (of his whims) which is what democracy is all about.

In a democracy, these peoples (politicians)

59481863-10949759-image-a-5_1656082629338.jpg


makes these people (the common man), fight each other

buruh-kasar-ecf2-dom.jpg


so that they could advance their personal ambitions (and fortune) in this kind of room

Chamber-US-House-of-Representatives-Washington-DC.jpg


which in turn came up with their laws (based on their whims) to even enhance their fortune

1300x.jpg


This is why democracy which calims itself to get rid of lordships and kings, ended up becoming a de-facto kingdom itself.


Islam prevents its followers to be literal pawns for these criminals. Like I said (for Muslims), the more you understand how the world works, the more appreciative you are towards Islam. It is designed to protect you from these kind of people.

“Wahai Abdurrahman bin Samurah, janganlah engkau meminta kepemimpinan. Karena jika engkau diberi tanpa memintanya, niscaya engkau akan ditolong (oleh Allah dengan diberi taufik kepada kebenaran). Namun jika diserahkan kepadamu karena permintaanmu, niscaya akan dibebankan kepadamu (tidak akan ditolong).”

Hadits ini diriwayatkan Al-Imam Bukhari dalam Shahih-nya no. 7146


Isn't begging for leadership a part of democracy ?

489525_04505204122023_WhatsApp_Image_2023-12-04_at_16.14.18_6f5c7231.jpg
All out “against syirik demokrasi folk” right here.

Di ujung tanduk masuk Nusakambangan, hopefully not lah
 

Gary

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All out “against syirik demokrasi folk” right here.

Di ujung tanduk masuk Nusakambangan, hopefully not lah

You can think whatever you want. I have put my argument and I believe even the most retarded would've gotten the message.

So it's now their choice, they want to swim in this puddle called democracy or dignify themself with knowledge. Either way their choice.
 

NEKO

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Now if the west want to lecture other country, it wont be as convincing as before.
 

schuimpjes

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60s psychedelic song. Wild time

Voting age was 21 and poor 18 year old could only just accept what decided to them. Draft dodging joined some friends with colorful painted VW Station Wagon, literally became a hippie. LSD was rampant, anti-Vietnam War sentiments everywhere, some of your friends were politically active Yippies, those who went to college joined SDS protests, one or two maybe more extreme by became part of Weather Underground. News you saw was Manson Family murdered people from Black Panther Party or something. Some people started to talked that CIA made Manson and followers did that by using LSD that CIA was rampantly experimenting with it during the 50s for MK-Ultra or something.

Wild time
 

Gary

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schuimpjes

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Not related with the death of Ebrahim Raisi after he met with Ilham Aliyev of Azerbaijan. Not related.

Azerbaijan and Israeli relations is relatively beneficial for both countries. Israel demands or needs for oil about 40% of it from Azerbaijan. Meanwhile, Israel also exports their weapons and other ‘security’ tools to Azerbaijan, notably drones, with 60% of Azeris arms imports were from Israel between 2017 to 2020. 60% is a big number.

Israeli support to Azerbaijan with military arms, especially that used for Nagorno-Karabakh War, even though with all the scrutiny to Azeri forces, were investments for Israel and showing that Israel behind Azerbaijan however the conditions isand Azerbaijan also need to help Israel.

Israeli hub to fight against Iran for sure not Afghanistan, or Iraq, it is Azerbaijan. We’re talking about operatives exfiltration destination, to possible use of airbase.
 

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