TR Politics

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LegionnairE

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Kinda looks like US politics circa 2016 from here, TBH. Although you seem to have less insane lefties than we do (not that the right-wing is incapable of being any less insane).
In a country that's situated in Middle East you won't find anyone who's dumb enough to suggest open borders. We import some American far-leftism but not much.

This almost makes me glad that our education system sucks and doesn't teach much English.

Language barrier stops the flow of stupidity.
 

Ryder

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Afgan sosyal medya kullanıcısı çektiği videoda Tanju Özcan'a ve Türklere ağır hakaretlerde bulundu. "Gece gündüze kadar göğüslerini göstererek para kazanan sizin gençleriniz değil mi? Google'a yaz, ne çıkıyor? Çıplak karılar çıkıyor. Sizin ülkenizi kültürle bozmuşlar."


Translation:
Afghan refugee criticizes Turkish culture by stating that women are naked.

Go back to your country then.

Afghan Girls reach the west and they all become thots.

Lets see what he would feel if a Turk did a video like that.

Being racist against Turks and White people is tolerated in this world. But God forbid if Turks or White people start saying racist shit because Kurds, Afghans, Africans, Mexicans and African Americans cant be racist.

I say this here racism is an inherent human trait.

People can deny it all they want or even condemn for it.

We are all racists. Because humans will always split themselves with ethnic groups, tribes, races, clans you name it.

Because we all support our team all the way. We all want to belong to somewhere when somebody threatens it is when conflict happens.
 
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Ryder

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An imam went on a full on rant against refugees.

He said this during the hutbe he also ranted against Arabs how they exploit Hajj and Umrah with their expensive prices.

I think diyanet is going to expel him as usual just for exercising his free speech.
 

Ryder

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White people are now preaching Turks how to be tolerant.

Ahh yes the guys who invented concentration camps and human zoos are going to lecture us about tolerance.

If they care so much about tolerance they can take in some refugees from the Middle East and Africa rather than paying Erdogan to do their dirty work.
 

Ryder

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Arabs literally cried crocodile tears for Hagia sophia while at the same time have no problem in obliterating Turkic/Seljuk and Ottoman history.

Greeks destroyed a lot of Ottoman history even turning a mosque into a bar or a cinema.

Dont be surprised if they detonate Ataturk's house.

Nobody should lecture us about anything. End of rant.
 
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Ryder

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An Afghan, who allegedly sexually abused a 10-year-old girl in Bağcılar, angered residents of the neighborhood who as a result, wanted to lynch him.


The more they do this the more Turks will form vigilante groups.

Dont be surprised if a pogrom happens.

Once a case of bachabazi happens I think Turks are going to riot.

Eu and Erdogam screwed Turkey over with the constant refugee waves so Erdogan can cash his EU cheques while acting as the border guard of Europe.

Afghans are trying to reach Europe.

Turkey has always been a transit point for refugees and illegal immigrants trying go to europe.

Morocco has the same problem hence why the Spain is paying them to be their border guards.

Demographics is a weapon of war and has been for centuries. You want to takeover a country????

You have to be the majority in the past you use colonisation, conquest or settlers to kick people out. Now its different as all you need to do mass migrate to countries suffering low fertility rates while breeding over the natives.

Look at the USA, hispanics are now topped to be the majority in the future.
 

Ryder

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Usa and russia go around bombing countries while they dont have to suffer a refugee crisis.

Not the first time Russia uaed refugee crisis as a weapon of war.

People forget how the refugee crisis brought the Ottoman Empire to ita knees. As it lost territory to the Russians and the subsequent independance of the Balkans led to many Muslims regardless of ethnic origins to go and migrate to the Ottoman Empire to escape massacres and persecution.

Refugee crisis of the Ottoman Empire continued well into WW1 and the Turkish independance war.

I cannot imagine how bad those times were.

People were already bound to intergrate and assmilate cant say the same for Syrians and Afghans. Syrians in a way can be intergrated but with Afghans no chance you know why we dont share much with them compared to the Balkans and the Middle East.

Interesting fact I want to point out here is that Babur disliked Afghans even used petty reasons to execute them. Turkic peoples and the Afghans dont like each other very much despite the same faith factors include land, resources and rivalry in ruling Afghanistan. There was mutual respect and exchanges.

Islam and Christianity cannot make people a monolithic entity. A French Catholic cant be seen as the same with a Congolese Catholic.
 

Nilgiri

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it's starting to look like Europe before 1914.

To some degree I agree about the 1914 style powder keg polarisation taking ship geopolitcally in Europe (and world at large).

But key thing we have now unlike 1914 is hindsight of what 1914 eventually meant and did in that first half of 20th century.

1914+ it had yet to happen....the patricians then simply did not have what the patricians today have regarding that...that has come about by sheer passage of time and consequence within it.

Greece could train Indian air force, army and navy. Being a NATO military, I am absolutely sure that Greek training methods are better than whatever India does.


IAF "training methods/system" is long subject to get into.

Suffice to say the NATO/Western elements concerning this are mostly bridged significantly via extensive training alongside (from roughly 90s onwards) US, UK, France, Israel and Singapore.

Singapore especially is of relevance as it has commited on a number of occasions full squadrons (of F-16s) for IAF appraisal and tactics development (for mutual benefit of both sides).

These play a big role in bringing out the full potential of cards we have (affected by various earlier realities and decisions) and better plan and chart the cards we will have going forward.

Greece would play minor role in this relatively speaking, though we have friendly interaction with them in the usual occasions that come for it....broadly like it is with most western armed forces (of whatever size).

I would imagine cooperation (in AF domain) is and will be organised around the respective AF's ongoing use/planned use of Mirage 2000, Rafale, AWACS and S-300 family of SAM (as it relates to specific matters in using/countering various air platforms since India will be fielding S-400 soon).

Anyway, it's another huge failure of Turkish foreign policy. We could have pursued close ties with Pakistan without alienating India. India is a huge market where we could export Turkish products. We are too ideologically driven.

I agree overall. But there are promising signs, even with seemingly more ideologically-wedded Erodgan Admin (from our perspective) and Modi Admin (from yours) compared to their precursors.

After all we have selection of Turkish shipyard (with its ToT) for Indian replenishment tanker project:

I have talked to this before, there is large scope for Turkey to even make up its trade deficit with India in short term status quo (and then expand trade in all directions in long term as economic and political policy mature).

2018 for example (pre-covid economy) goods-wise from UN database:

TRcomt.jpg



Turkey imported 9 times more from India (7.5 billion dollars) than it did from Pakistan and Bangladesh combined (900 million dollars).

Yet Turkey exported to India ( 1.2 billion dollars) just about what it did to Pakistan and Bangladeshi combined (1 billion dollars).

It is a rejoinder to how executive ideology bears only some influence on free market and larger society demands/pressures...both in what happens regardless of the (political) executive's policy course/influence and also what has been stopped from flowing both ways because of the executive's effects.

In fact the changes w.r.t trade of the big 3 south asian countries with Turkey since 2010 are quite striking (and seemingly runs counter to what some would expect):

TRcomt2.jpg


It is kind of thing that would routinely get me banned in a particular (PK run) forum for even bringing up (much less expanding upon).

This (raw deficit Turkey runs in exchange rate pressure with India) is part of reason Turkish shipyard could attractively price its replenishment ship technology to India.

This (raw pressure) can be taken forward in other economic sectors Turkey has invested into a comparative advantage.

Maybe if new admin comes to power in Turkey next, it will help breakthrough on larger picture and better mutual understanding....especially as Indian economy continues to grow and get more competitive in more sectors (which we wish the same w.r.t Turkey).

Less wedded you are to ideology in geopolitics (driven by whatever 1%/patrician/elitist issue), the more options at buffet you have to choose from.

That is win win always for the "99%" "plebs" especially.

I personally repose a strong faith in India - Turkey relations (almost inevitably) growing and improving a lot long term...as we have both secular republican setup in the core... whatever ideology of patrician parties/factions reside in the arena (for whatever underlying reason/complexity/context) and whatever their ability to stir up plebeian mobs/captive votes at the present juncture.

It essentially becomes matter of how our populations increasingly align to the enlightened principles of the country-founders and persevere with them.

It is that (constitutional setup) core that sets the beating heart, mindful brain and positive soul for the highest objectives and standards of a nation....set when the dawn of new era (whatever the nightmares were before it) came its way.

It is why I much admire Ataturk ...given what the cards were he had dealt to him and situation that confronted his nation...and how he responded to it all...and what he bequeathed as the enlightenment to take forward.

Ataturk's story is unsurprisingly big part of the first few bridges that got me to read, know and learn more about Turkey itself: https://defencehub.live/threads/combat-analysis-war-history.488/page-4#post-44234
 

what

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That is win win always for the "99%" "plebs" especially.

I personally repose a strong faith in India - Turkey relations (almost inevitably) growing and improving a lot long term...as we have both secular republican setup in the core... whatever ideology of patrician parties/factions reside in the arena (for whatever underlying reason/complexity/context) and whatever their ability to stir up plebeian mobs/captive votes at the present juncture.

It essentially becomes matter of how our populations increasingly align to the enlightened principles of the country-founders and persevere with them.

It is that (constitutional setup) core that sets the beating heart, mindful brain and positive soul for the highest objectives and standards of a nation....set when the dawn of new era (whatever the nightmares were before it) came its way.

It is why I much admire Ataturk ...given what the cards were he had dealt to him and situation that confronted his nation...and how he responded to it all...and what he bequeathed as the enlightenment to take forward.

Ataturk's story is unsurprisingly big part of the first few bridges that got me to read, know and learn more about Turkey itself: https://defencehub.live/threads/combat-analysis-war-history.488/page-4#post-44234

I think that we have to separate Turkish politics and companies when we talk about these topics. Turkish companies rely less on the governments intervention, because of the younger scuffles between Turkey and other countries. For example trade with Israel, Egypt seems to grow unlike what the politics would make you believe. So I see a lot of potential too and Vestel and Arcelik have invested recently in the region.


But unrelated to that, I kinda get the feeling that India is too drifting towards religious motivated Nationalism since Modi took office. Or what do you think about that?
 

Nilgiri

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I think that we have to separate Turkish politics and companies when we talk about these topics. Turkish companies rely less on the governments intervention, because of the younger scuffles between Turkey and other countries. For example trade with Israel, Egypt seems to grow unlike what the politics would make you believe. So I see a lot of potential too and Vestel and Arcelik have invested recently in the region.

Yes I agree completely, this is exactly what I mean. There is much larger world outside of politics and geopolitics (these latter two tend to disproportionately wield larger control over media spotlight/narratives compared to their actual relevance in the end)

But unrelated to that, I kinda get the feeling that India is too drifting towards religious motivated Nationalism since Modi took office. Or what do you think about that?

As with everything, it didn't start one fine day (someone coming to power etc). This applies to both the perception and reality components of this kind of "nationalism" taking root and setting sizeable floorboards behind it.

I use the inverted commas as its not true nationalism, like any majoritarian movement that uses polarisation and wedge issues and minority scapegoating to simply wield largest mob power instead of having full broadest range of national identity as the 1st principle.

This (fake nationalism) has much larger backdrop in Indian society as to what can be harnessed for expedient political power vis a vis true nationalism. That has been much longer process in the making (the reactionary and counter-reactionary discourse)....given such things as what partition did in first place (after the greatest hope the independence movement promised and was moving towards)....and what haunts and lingers from it. It is not easy for 1, 2 maybe 3 generations to let that go, it might take many many more....so we are stuck in interim psychology that is (foul minded) politicians best dream come true.

Largest ingredient in this has been the failure to invest in sound public education (at primary and secondary level) of the more enlightened (true nationalist) folks prior to this fake-nationalist era.

We will have to make do and learn lessons just like everyone else what is true and fake. The costs have been, are and will be great, but thats what you tend to get when you have this level and scale of extraction (physically and mentally) from the nation for centuries prior....and expect quick easy enlightenment without appropriate dedication in investing into it.

Turkey through Ataturk reforms achieved it much more intensely overall (if you look at basic education level within a few decades)....so you have that going for you in overall situation right now on development numbers.
 

mulj

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I am man of simple words and do not wamt to spoil the party but pakistan and bangladesh can offer much more were it counts amd those are military products, india simply carries to much baggage due heavy dependance on west in forseable future due their own cold war with china.
On the other hand pakistan and bangladesh are lets say "green" markets, pakistan less in military part and if you include china in eqution really do not see space for deeping relations beside private bussiness.
And yes not sure what the outcome of hindutva nazism will be, another obstacle, for now it has firm grip in legitmacy.
 

Ryder

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it's starting to look like Europe before 1914.

Greece could train Indian air force, army and navy. Being a NATO military, I am absolutely sure that Greek training methods are better than whatever India does.

In exchange India could export some arms to Greece. UAE is useless.

Anyway, it's another huge failure of Turkish foreign policy. We could have pursued close ties with Pakistan without alienating India. India is a huge market where we could export Turkish products. We are too ideologically driven.


I completely agree. Tanju Özcan opened a new page in Turkish politics. There's no going back. Even MHP is faltering.

Next election will completely revolve around this issue.

They have already brought their disgusting pedophilia here.


Us Turks are too ideological driven.

I support pragmatism.
 

Ryder

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I am man of simple words and do not wamt to spoil the party but pakistan and bangladesh can offer much more were it counts amd those are military products, india simply carries to much baggage due heavy dependance on west in forseable future due their own cold war with china.
On the other hand pakistan and bangladesh are lets say "green" markets, pakistan less in military part and if you include china in eqution really do not see space for deeping relations beside private bussiness.
And yes not sure what the outcome of hindutva nazism will be, another obstacle, for now it has firm grip in legitmacy.

Well Turkey values India, Pakistan and Bangaldesh.

India might be majority Hindu but it also has a big population of Muslims. Also India, Bangladesh and Pakistan has lots of Turkic history with the Indo-Islamic Empires that were mostly Turkic in origin.

Turks of Turkey are of Oghuz origins while the Indo Islamic Empires ran by Turks mainly came from Central Asia they were a mix of Karluks, Kypjacks and other Turkic peoples.
 

mulj

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Well Turkey values India, Pakistan and Bangaldesh.

India might be majority Hindu but it also has a big population of Muslims. Also India, Bangladesh and Pakistan has lots of Turkic history with the Indo-Islamic Empires that were mostly Turkic in origin.

Turks of Turkey are of Oghuz origins while the Indo Islamic Empires ran by Turks mainly came from Central Asia they were a mix of Karluks, Kypjacks and other Turkic peoples.
It is not matter of country value, I am pointing out internal shifts in socio political conditions in India and it turns big time towards their own variant of nacism, still not overwhelming for whole country but it gets roots rapidly and because of that, it could be expected that become problem for India to justify it internationally.
 

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