TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

TheInsider

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Pardon ! But how do we know that our single crystal technology is at a level that can furnish AL41F1-izdeliye 30 engine’s turbine blades?
We know it is at that level because we are designing our own turbofan engines (several turbofan engine projects are running right now one of them is TF-6000) with our single-crystal blades in mind. Tubitak and TEI expanded cooperation recently. Russians couldn't even manage to produce single-crystal blades for similar engines to TS-1400. You can see them as small blades but we have successfully produced them with cooling vents and applied heat-resistant ceramic coatings. Scaling them up will only affect the yield rates. Yields will get lower as they got bigger in size.
 

mulj

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Our tech can double their engine's life
Can it be applied on existing engines during some kind of overhaul, if that could be done, then deal makes even more sense, considering russian air trafic volume and military fleet
 

Merzifonlu

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Russians couldn't even manage to produce single-crystal blades for similar engines to TS-1400.
Are you sure?

Even if this is true, how do you know that the problems of the İzdeliye-30 engine will be solved with the single crystal turbine blades we produce? No one can guarantee this.
 

TheInsider

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I'm sure.
The only problem with izdeliye-30 is single crystal blades. They are postponing it because of that. Izdeliye 30 will be the first national single-crystal engine of Russia with its national single-crystal blade production capability. Chinese recently successfully developed single-crystal blades but they are having problems with scaling up and standardization of the production.
 

Khagan1923

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Stop posting this person's tweets here. He has proven himself to be an delusional liar. According to him Turkey by now has signed ten times a contract to buy S-500 with co-production and ToT. Russians joined TFX 2 years ago and we bought Su-57 with Turkish avionics and missiles/bombs as well as the right to produce as many as we want in Country for the last two years now.

He reheats the same tweets over and over again to gain attention and then acts like he never said something. He is also a russia fanboy. Most likely even an Russian Ops, there many on twitter trying to influence the discourse.

Please stop posting unreliable people's ramblings here.

The Turkish Air Force has no interest in the mess that the Su-57 is. The Russians will never join the TF-X program because they can't contribute even 30% of what the Brits are contributing in terms of knowledge and assistance. The Su-57 isn't even 5th Gen. What the hell are they gonna contriute to our program? Engines that turn the sky black? That need to be overhauled 5 times as much over their lifetimes compared to their western coounterparts?

No thanks. There is a reason India dropped the Su-57 even though Russia was given them very favourable terms on it and decided to go with their own program. Because they realised the mess it is.

The only reason Russia wants to join it is for its own benefits. Maybe then they can create a real 5th Gen Fighter with the tech they would steal from our program.
 
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Nilgiri

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Pardon ! But how do we know that our single crystal technology is at a level that can furnish AL41F1-izdeliye 30 engine’s turbine blades?

Precisely the issue. SCB is not really barterable chips like some assume. There is huge amount of capital machinery behind it (and the technology + IP inside them, esp for process control).

Turkey will not want to upset relationship with GE, till it has matured its autarky at deep level. That will take quite a long (unforseeable) time IMO, these are early days and much remains to be done in Turkish jet engine dev that cannot be risked by added political endeavours.
 

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quite an interesting read sory for the google translation when ı have enough time ı may try to translate important parts. it provides a clear picture of exactly where we are, what we are working on and what we should do.

https://haber.aero/yazarlar/fahrett...-esasli-super-alasim-gelistirme-faaliyetleri/

In recent years, with the increasing efforts to develop aircraft engines in the country, the agenda for super alloys has started to emerge. Since nickel-based alloys are used extensively in aircraft engine structures, studies in the field of development and production of nickel-based materials should be started very quickly in our country. The realization of industrial-scale facilities is of great importance. In this sense, production should be done by concentrating on Inconel series alloys at the first stage. Otherwise, the investments made for the production of aircraft engines in our country may face difficulties due to possible material constraints that may be encountered in the coming periods. Since the design and production of aircraft engines includes very critical technologies, foreign dependency in this area should be brought to a minimum. A project was initiated by the Presidency of Defense Industries (SSB) at the end of 2017 for the development of Inconel 718 nickel-based super alloy, and this project is an important study initiated for the localization of engine materials. Thus, a critical step has been taken that will lead to the localization of other alloys.

As it is known, pure nickel production has started in our country. It is also very important to start the studies to prevent the current account deficit problem by using this production for domestic consumption and turning it into a final product. For this purpose, first of all, nickel should be alloyed and turned into a product with high added value. Although some gains are made by exporting the raw material produced in the current situation, the main target should be the domestic production of high-tech aircraft engines and gas turbines, in which nickel-based super alloy materials will be used, in terms of the interests of the country.

It is a fact that the improvements in the performance of the modern gas turbine engine, in which nickel-based super alloys are used, have been supported by the whole world since 1947, when the era of jet-powered civil aviation began. While a number of factors have contributed to the current importance of these alloys in relation to the development of design and manufacturing technologies, the development of alloys and the placement of the components made from them in the hottest parts of aircraft turbine engines is absolutely critical. As the chemical compositions of nickel-based superalloys have improved, the critical properties in creep and fatigue have improved significantly and turbine inlet temperatures have reached 1600 °C due to coaxial, single crystal and oriented solidification production methods and thermal barrier coating methods. It is important to consider the technological, economic and societal pressures driving these developments. Today, space and aviation technologies are used in many fields, from aircraft and defense systems for transportation and security purposes, to communication, energy, agriculture and astronomy studies. Especially with the creation of production technology accumulation of these alloys, nuclear and other power plants, aircraft engines, space shuttle engines, petrochemicals, ship engines, submarine engines, natural gas pumping engines will be mastered, and domestic technology and national talent will be minimized in these areas. will be won.

Although there are no commercial investments and mass production in our country, important studies have started to be made for the research, development and prototype production of materials used in aviation. Important studies are carried out in cooperation with TÜBİTAK Marmara Research Center (MAM), universities and private institutions, with the aim of developing casting and forging technologies of aluminum, titanium and super alloys, which are supported by SSB and used in original platform projects. As an example, the first and second stage turbine blades with and without cooling channels, which are the most important parts of the turboshaft engine developed by TEI for the GÖKBEY helicopter, one of the important platform projects of our country, are the TÜBİTAK MAM Materials Institute "High Temperature Materials, Research Development and Repair Excellence Center". production can be made. Today these blades are still used in the tests of the turboshaft engine. The technology gained for mass production is delivered to SSB as a technology information package. On the other hand, TÜBİTAK MAM Materials Institute is at the “High Temperature Materials, Research Development and Repair Excellence Center” for the production of nickel, cobalt-based super alloys and stainless steels, all of which are imported from abroad as raw materials or products, in aviation quality, high purity ingot form as raw materials. ” “triple melting” infrastructure has been established and today austenitic stainless steel and Inconel 718 alloy can be produced.

Parallel to the R&D and technology acquisition infrastructures, the infrastructures required for these technologies also attract the attention of private institutions.
Various infrastructures have started to be established and/or projected with internal incentives. Despite these developments, there are serious deficiencies in materials and test infrastructures in the aviation sector. Support should be continued considering the adaptability of these technologies for nuclear and space technologies.

As a result, the development of super alloys and the establishment of an institute that will contribute to the creation of the necessary infrastructure in this field in our country are of great importance. In addition, the capacities of high temperature, structural and mechanical test systems, which are critical for super alloys, are not sufficient. I am of the opinion that our technology maturity level will rise in a very short time with the expert staff to be formed in this field and the studies to be carried out. Especially today, when the use of 5th and even 6th generation single crystal superalloys is started, it is important to take action very quickly. For this reason, this institute should be put into practice and studies should be started without wasting any time. It is of great importance to accelerate the localization processes of super alloys and other aerospace materials in order to realize our country's aviation and space industry goals and to become one of the strongest countries in the world by removing our dependence on foreign countries. In this context, necessary feasibility studies should be carried out and emergency action plans should be prepared. According to these prepared plans, necessary investments should be made and competent human resources and infrastructures should be established in this field.
 
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Yasar_TR

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The article that @Quasar has shared clearly states that we are still at the infancy stages of single crystal blade technology in Turkey. There is still a lot of distance for us to go before we can say we are proficient.
Yes we have produced TS1400 with SCB technology. But this turboshaft engine turbine temperature doesn’t go above 1450 degrees C. The Russian AL41F engine turbine blades are manufactured by directional solidification method. This is the basis of the method with which the SCBs are produced. This Russian engine’s DS turbine blade temperatures reaches in excess of 1650 degrees C. SDCs in the Izdeliye 30 engine, with it’s nearly 5-6 times larger diameter than our ts1400, reaches even higher temperatures. As diameter increases, the stresses that affect the blades increase exponentially due to higher centrifugal forces for a given angular speed and the weight of larger blades. If you add the increase in temperature to the equation as well, you have a very difficult problem to solve. It is not the same as a small diameter turbine. That is the problem both the Russians and the Chinese are having with their SCBs. We are going to have the same problem too if we go that big as well. I doubt if GE will help.
That is why I asked if we knew we were at a level to produce turbine blades for an engine the size of izdeliye30.
Russians have perfected the DS turbine blade manufacturing and probably have reached it’s limits. For turboshaft engines that was probably sufficient for them. AL31 and AL41 family engines, were probably okay. But due to their lower life cycles and the need to produce an engine with high supercruise capabilities to achieve better stealth characteristics, AL41F1 needed to be upgraded with SDC technology. Hence the Izdeliye 30! But they are having problems with the SDC tech.
So my question still stands. Are we at a level to be able to supply Izdeliye 30 with SDC blades? Don’t just say “sure we are” . Show and share source please.
 
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Yasar_TR

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We know it is at that level because we are designing our own turbofan engines (several turbofan engine projects are running right now one of them is TF-6000) with our single-crystal blades in mind. Tubitak and TEI expanded cooperation recently. Russians couldn't even manage to produce single-crystal blades for similar engines to TS-1400. You can see them as small blades but we have successfully produced them with cooling vents and applied heat-resistant ceramic coatings. Scaling them up will only affect the yield rates. Yields will get lower as they got bigger in size.
TF6000 is a small engine probably derived from the same core of ts1400. Therefore it is of the same diameter. Izdeliye 30 is 5-6 times larger in diameter. Russians did not need SDC for turboshaft engines. They were happy with lower life cycle of their DS turbines.
It doesn’t just effect the yield rates. When blades get bigger “Creep” starts to settle quicker. The blades become fatigued quicker. Larger engines mean higher temperatures. More stresses on blades. Please don’t comment on subjects you don’t know.
 
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TheInsider

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The article that @Quasar has shared clearly states that we are still at the infancy stages of single crystal blade technology in Turkey. There is still a lot of distance for us to go before we can say we are proficient.
Yes we have produced TS1400 with SCB technology. But this turboshaft engine turbine temperature doesn’t go above 1450 degrees C. The Russian AL41F engine turbine blades are manufactured by directional solidification method. This is the basis of the method with which the SCBs are produced. This Russian engine’s DS turbine blade temperatures reaches in excess of 1650 degrees C. SDCs in the Izdeliye 30 engine, with it’s nearly 5-6 times larger diameter than our ts1400, reaches even higher temperatures. As diameter increases, the stresses that affect the blades increase exponentially due to higher centrifugal forces for a given angular speed and the weight of larger blades. If you add the increase in temperature to the equation as well, you have a very difficult problem to solve. It is not the same as a small diameter turbine. That is the problem both the Russians and the Chinese are having with their SCBs. We are going to have the same problem too if we go that big as well. I doubt if GE will help.
That is why I asked if we knew we were at a level to produce turbine blades for an engine the size of izdeliye30.
Russians have perfected the DS turbine blade manufacturing and probably have reached it’s limits. For turboshaft engines that was probably sufficient for them. AL31 and AL41 family engines, were probably okay. But due to their lower life cycles and the need to produce an engine with high supercruise capabilities to achieve better stealth characteristics, AL41F1 needed to be upgraded with SDC technology. Hence the Izdeliye 30! But they are having problems with the SDC tech.
So my question still stands. Are we at a level to be able to supply Izdeliye 30 with SDC blades? Don’t just say “sure we are” . Show and share source please.
It doesn't go above 1450 degrees Celcius because it doesn't need to go. We can easily push those blades above the temperatures you mentioned. LHTEC operates at a similar temperature. Scaling up the blades in bigger diameters will only affect yield rates since blades will become thicker(to beat forces) and longer(to produce more thrust&power) to beat those forces you mentioned. This means cooling and solidifying blade material as a single crystal while in production will be harder. It will affect yields. Half or maybe more than half the blades will be rejected in quality controls because of faulty production and deformations in single-crystal structure.

No one designs a national turbofan engine without having the capability to produce turbine blades of it.
 
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TheInsider

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TF6000 is bigger compared to TS-1400 and it has nothing to do with it. It is a completely new project that is started from scratch. And there are other bigger TF engines as well. The plan is to create an engine family in the next 10 years.
 

Yasar_TR

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It doesn't go above 1450 degrees Celcius because it doesn't need to go. We can easily push those blades above the temperatures you mentioned. LHTEC operates at a similar temperature. Scaling up the blades in bigger diameters will only affect yield rates since blades will become thicker(to beat forces) and longer(to produce more thrust&power) to beat those forces you mentioned. This means cooling and solidifying blade material as a single crystal while in production will be harder.

No one designs a national turbofan engine without having the capability to produce turbine blades of it.
How do you know we can push those blades to higher temperatures? Have you got any solid scientific proof of that? Besides, you do not need to push “those” blades to higher temperatures. You need to push much larger blades to higher temperatures. Izdeliye 30 engine turbine entry air temperature is 2100Kelvin. That is 1827degrees Celsius.
Again you say we can push them to higher temperatures. But that is your own opinion. Do you have a source to support this opinion?
AL41F1 engine had a 91 cm fan diameter. Izdeliye 30 is a bit larger. Our best shot was T700-TEI700D turboshaft engine with a compressor diameter of 39cm. (If I am not mistaken cts-800 from which TS1400 is copied has a compressor diameter of 24cm)
You don’t seem to understand the relation between size of blades, (weight of blades) and the diameter of engine, hence rotational angular speed, and the effect of temperature on them.
Bigger the blades the more likely it is to have grain boundaries which detract from the quality of single crystals. Bigger the blade more stresses are on them , especially with high temperatures, which causes creep to build. Few hundred hours of use and you have an engine failure.
From what you have written I understand that you have no engineering knowledge whatsoever. You base your discussion on personal opinions. It is a discussion I would expect to hear from a high school graduate. If I were you I would stop here!

 
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Yasar_TR

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TF6000 is bigger compared to TS-1400 and it has nothing to do with it. It is a completely new project that is started from scratch. And there are other bigger TF engines as well. The plan is to create an engine family in the next 10 years.
Source please??
tf6000 is supposed to be a 20KN (4500lbf ) thrust level engine. So it is small.
 
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Zafer

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Larger turbines turn slower
Larger blades have more real estate on them to implement cooling measures
Lesser quality turbines can go to the aeroderivative path to be marines

I haven't built turbines I only have part of the picture
 

Yasar_TR

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Larger turbines turn slower
Larger blades have more real estate on them to implement cooling measures
Lesser quality turbines can go to the aeroderivative path to be marines

I haven't built turbines I only have part of the picture
True. Smaller turbines rotate at higher speeds. Larger turbines rotate at lower speeds. But nevertheless, angular speed for larger engines is higher.
For a typical turbofan engine ; When fan rotates at 3000rpm, low pressure turbine rotates at 12000rpm. But high pressure turbine could be rotating at 20000rpm.
CTS-800 rotates at 23000rpm. (But can easily achieve 40000rpm under test conditions)
 

TheInsider

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How do you know we can push those blades to higher temperatures? Have you got any solid scientific proof of that? Besides, you do not need to push “those” blades to higher temperatures. You need to push much larger blades to higher temperatures. Izdeliye 30 engine turbine entry air temperature is 2100Kelvin. That is 1827degrees Celsius.
Again you say we can push them to higher temperatures. But that is your own opinion. Do you have a source to support this opinion?
AL41F1 engine had a 91 cm fan diameter. Izdeliye 30 is a bit larger. Our best shot was T700-TEI700D turboshaft engine with a compressor diameter of 39cm. (If I am not mistaken cts-800 from which TS1400 is copied has a compressor diameter of 24cm)
You don’t seem to understand the relation between size of blades, (weight of blades) and the diameter of engine, hence rotational angular speed, and the effect of temperature on them.
Bigger the blades the more likely it is to have grain boundaries which detract from the quality of single crystals. Bigger the blade more stresses are on them , especially with high temperatures, which causes creep to build. Few hundred hours of use and you have an engine failure.
From what you have written I understand that you have no engineering knowledge whatsoever. You base your discussion on personal opinions. It is a discussion I would expect to hear from a high school graduate. If I were you I would stop here!

Asked TEI about that also Mr.Akşit told something similar at one of the online meetings. What we have currently is good up to 1600-1700 degrees celsius. Heat resistant coatings were applied and cooling channels were drilled accordingly for TS-1400. Calculations were done exclusively for TS-1400. Those will change for bigger turbofans.

Bu proje yeni değil. Hazırlık safhası ve altyapı oluşturacak teknolojik çalışmalar 2005e kadar gidiyor. 2013de ilk defa Hamitabat güç santralinin türbin kanatçıklarının verilmesi ile hız kazanıyor. Şuan sahip olduğumuz teknoloji 1600-1700 dereceye kadar kanatçık ömründen ödün vermeden 120cm çap sınıfında motor üretimine yetiyor. TS-1400den sonra değişecek şey tek-kristal veya alaşım kimyası değil. Kanatçığın üzerine deldiğin soğutma kanalları şuan üzerinde çalıştığımız motorlar için optimize edilecek. Ayrıca daha gelişmiş termal bariyer kaplamalar(araştırmanın ciddi bir kısmı bu aşamada buraya yönelmiş durumda) kullanılacak ama özünde şuan paralel olarak 3 farklı turbofan(evet 3 farklı büyük turbofan motor projesi başlatıldı ve paralel yürüyor biri de TF-6000) motor tasarlamamamızı sağlayan kimyası, reçetesi ve üretim metodu belli teknoloji özünde aynı kalacak. Zaten elimizde bunu yapacak kapasite olmasa kalkıp da TRMotor diye şirket kurmaya ve 3 turbofan motor projesini paralel yürütmeye kalkışmazdık. Bunu bilenler biliyor. Rusyanın da bu nedenle ağzı sulanıyor zaten. Yoksa Rusya 1600 derecelere doğrultusal katılaştırılmış kanatçıklar ile zaten çıkıyor (senin mantığa göre bizim tek kristal Rusyanın doğrultusal katılaştırılan kanatçıklarından kötü, o zaman neden tek kristal ile uğraştık biz?) ama ömürden ciddi taviz veriyor. Biz de aynı şekilde o sıcaklıklar civarına ve çaplara doğrultusal katılaştırılmış kanatçıklarla çıkabilirdik, illa da tek kristal gerekmiyor. Belki bizimki 50 derece düşük olurdu ama olurdu. Ama o zaman kanatçık ömründen ciddi taviz vermemiz gerekirdi.

Kanatçıklar büyüdükçe tek kristal üretmek zorlaşıyor bu nedenle döküme verdiğin 100 kanatçıktan belki 50si belki daha azı kalite kontrolü geçebiliyor. Çünkü kalite kontrolde tek kristal yapıda deformasyonlar belli bir seviyenin üzerinde tespit edilirse kanatçık reject oluyor. Bu nedenle büyük kanatçıkların fiyatı ciddi tuzlu olacak ve üretim verimliliği TS-1400 kanatçıklarına kıyasla daha düşük olacak.
 
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