Defence Q&A Is the US or China the world’s economic superpower?

xizhimen

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Is the US or China the world’s economic superpower?

TBS Report

01 October, 2021, 02:40 pm

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Gary

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If you mean if I have read papers driven by American, Indian or their proxies telling us USA will remain at the top
oh come on, you're going to singlehandedly blacklists all those research papers ?? fine then.

ignorance is a bliss.

. And have you done any research that tells us USA will last at the top until time runs out?
yes,
Ps. I am 58 years old amd I still remember like yesterday my history teacher telling us about famine afflicted China and death of Mao in 1976. I have a vivid memory of the slide he used showing Beijing with bikes everywhere and not a car in sight. Last year my son spent three months in China as part of a university exchange programme in Shanghai. He got to see China and it's potential. He also has been to USA as well.

that means you're born in 1963, where China has people's like MAO ruining the economy.

China rises up from the abyss by adopting free market capitalism, friendly relations with the west and other supporting factors such as young demography. those are the fuel to China's rise

now all of those factors are reversed, guess what will happen when this car (China) are running out on fuel. ??

as @Nilgiri had previously posted this, you should read it, there's the answer

 

Kaptaan

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China has a massive base population
People are too obsessed with the idea of young population. While it is true that a bulge at the bottom can provide vibrancy but it's increasingly not as relevant. We live in interesting times and are at the cusp of another era - post information age where robotics/AI will be the buzzword. Here scientific, managerial talent will be pivotal. A man in his 50s or 60s could be vastly more productive then a 20 year old. With increasing robotics and AI the lower jobs will be replaced thus making skilled or unskilled works redundant.

And even with a greying population China will stil have 100s of millions people in the younger age group on the population pyramid.

Meantime like I said ignore the academic and media factories pumping out the usual trash with their proxies busy peddling these as 'facts'.
 

xizhimen

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Gary

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People are too obsessed with the idea of young population.

not only young, but also the talented. and the USA has an abundance of those. you may dismissed this and continue to ride on the notion that old and greying countries will continue to grow. Meanwhile most experts agree on this.

I mean why would China's CCP lift the ban on single child and introduce 3 child policy instead?? are the CCP being superstitious ?? are the CCP infiltrated by western agenda articulated papers ??

you should read more for think tank analyst.

With increasing robotics and AI the lower jobs will be replaced thus making skilled or unskilled works redundant.

eventually it's the human that will spent their money and move the economic activity. not some robots.
And even with a greying population China will stil have 100s of millions people in the younger age group on the population pyramid.

by the next century, which is 80 years from now, China's population is expected to be slashed by half (700mil) and most of them are old, and it will significantly burden the state. Old people are BURDEN to the state.

Sure China would still be a big power, but will not surpass that of the US let alone be a hyperpower.
 

xizhimen

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When a couple of power outage happen in China, the western media will make you believe China is running out of power despite the fact that China is the world biggest electricity producer by a runaway margin, when China has some provinces hit by some flood, western medie tells you that the whole China is under water, when some Chinese cities experienced smog problem, they tell you doomsday is coming, When Chinese government appeal the public to not waste food, they tell you China is having a famine.... Do you know why the Chinese public become less and less in believing western media? cause they lied too much in the past couples of years.
 

xizhimen

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by the next century, which is 80 years from now, China's population is expected to be slashed by half (700mil) and most of them are old, and it will significantly burden the state. Old people are BURDEN to the state.
By that time US could have been broken into many independent states due to the demographic changes and racial strife.
 

Nilgiri

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oh come on, you're going to singlehandedly blacklists all those research papers ?? fine then.

ignorance is a bliss.


yes,


that means you're born in 1963, where China has people's like MAO ruining the economy.

China rises up from the abyss by adopting free market capitalism, friendly relations with the west and other supporting factors such as young demography. those are the fuel to China's rise

now all of those factors are reversed, guess what will happen when this car (China) are running out on fuel. ??

as @Nilgiri had previously posted this, you should read it, there's the answer


China has bulked up fairly well......using its demographic dividend years.

That will now be a big challenge going forward (continuing that model).

In fact close to impossible given China is not innovating + integrating with markets fast enough....relative to population size anymore.

US + Europe + Japan (and those looking to increasingly join them in geopolitical and economic alliances going forward) are much more "insiders club" on these things.

A basic return (monetary wise) on IP transaction total transfer value (export and import) per patent grant (or science paper or what have you) tells you all about the quality in innovation and RnD. The importance of networking and integration of the economy here to its peers (that needs deeper political trust and reliability in the end).

It shows just how reliant China is on labour size (which will now recede going forward and also be undercut at same time).

The problem is many people don't look up these numbers and simply take Chinese "output" at face value....because their rise needs to fit into a pattern or bias they have.
 

Gary

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By that time US could have been broken into many independent states due to the demographic changes and racial strife.
wrong, the US is time and time again tested with these so called racial strife and appears to get along with it.

remember how the US came from a white supremacist state into one of the most open country on earth ?? or how the 60s baby boomers phenomenon challenged the cultural norms at those time ??

Or how the Chinese are betting the capitol riot would start a white revolution ??

what has happened since then ???

actually it remains to be seen if China could take the same beatings and not being crippled because China unlike the US, hides its problem.
 

xizhimen

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In fact close to impossible given China is not innovating + integrating with markets fast enough....relative to population size anymore.
The fact is China gets more innovative every passing year, Chinese market is fast surpassing all western market, Chinese global share in global trade, economy and industries gets bigger each year.
 

Gary

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China has bulked up fairly well......using its demographic dividend years.

That will now be a big challenge going forward (continuing that model).

In fact close to impossible given China is not innovating + integrating with markets fast enough....relative to population size anymore.

US + Europe + Japan (and those looking to increasingly join them in geopolitical and economic alliances going forward) are much more "insiders club" on these things.

A basic return (monetary wise) on IP transaction total transfer value (export and import) per patent grant (or science paper or what have you) tells you all about the quality in innovation and RnD. The importance of networking and integration of the economy here to its peers (that needs deeper political trust and reliability in the end).

It shows just how reliant China is on labour size (which will now recede going forward and also be undercut at same time).

The problem is many people don't look up these numbers and simply take Chinese "output" at face value....because their rise needs to fit into a pattern or bias they have.

Basically China's fuel to its rise is

1. State sponsored capitalism since Deng came into power
2. Cooperative demographics
3. Excellent relationship with the west

now I ask you, from this 3 points, which one is not reversed under the tutelage of Xi Jinping ??
 

xizhimen

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wrong, the US is time and time again tested with these so called racial strife and appears to get along with it.

remember how the US came from a white supremacist state into one of the most open country on earth ?? or how the 60s baby boomers phenomenon challenged the cultural norms at those time ??

Or how the Chinese are betting the capitol riot would start a white revolution ??

what has happened since then ???

actually it remains to be seen if China could take the same beatings and not being crippled because China unlike the US, hides its problem.
Anyone can make wild claims, even there is chance that China's population will be halved in 80 years, US can break up in the same span of time, both are wild claims very few of us can live that long to see.
 

xizhimen

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Basically China's fuel to its rise is

1. State sponsored capitalism since Deng came into power
2. Cooperative demographics
3. Excellent relationship with the west

now I ask you, from this 3 points, which one is not reversed under the tutelage of Xi Jinping ??
The world market has changed, now China is the world biggest market and China is the world biggest investor, you know what has changed, everything has changed.
 

Gary

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The fact is China gets more innovative every passing year, Chinese market is fast surpassing all western market, Chinese global share in global trade, economy and industries gets bigger each year.

Imperial Germany and Japan are textbook examples.


Germany’s rivalry with Britain in the late 19th and early 20th centuries is often considered an analogue to U.S.-China competition: In both cases, an autocratic challenger threatened a liberal hegemon. But the more sobering parallel is this: War came when a cornered Germany grasped it would not zip past its rivals without a fight.

For decades after unification in 1871, Germany soared. Its factories spewed out iron and steel, erasing Britain’s economic lead. Berlin built Europe’s finest army and battleships that threatened British supremacy at sea. By the early 1900s, Germany was a European heavyweight seeking an enormous sphere of influence—a Mitteleuropa, or Middle Europe—on the continent. It was also pursuing, under then-Kaiser Wilhelm II, a “world policy” aimed at securing colonies and global power.

But during the prelude to war, the kaiser and his aides didn’t feel confident. Germany’s brash behavior caused its encirclement by hostile powers. London, Paris, and St. Petersburg, Russia, formed a “Triple Entente” to block German expansion. By 1914, time was running short. Germany was losing ground economically to a fast-growing Russia; London and France were pursuing economic containment by blocking its access to oil and iron ore. Berlin’s key ally, Austria-Hungary, was being torn apart by ethnic tensions. At home, Germany’s autocratic political system was in trouble.


China today is what Japan and Germany is in the prelude before WW1 and WW2.

Basically a rising country, with little fuel left to sustain its ascendancy.
 

xizhimen

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Imperial Germany and Japan are textbook examples.

Germany’s rivalry with Britain in the late 19th and early 20th centuries is often considered an analogue to U.S.-China competition: In both cases, an autocratic challenger threatened a liberal hegemon. But the more sobering parallel is this: War came when a cornered Germany grasped it would not zip past its rivals without a fight.

For decades after unification in 1871, Germany soared. Its factories spewed out iron and steel, erasing Britain’s economic lead. Berlin built Europe’s finest army and battleships that threatened British supremacy at sea. By the early 1900s, Germany was a European heavyweight seeking an enormous sphere of influence—a Mitteleuropa, or Middle Europe—on the continent. It was also pursuing, under then-Kaiser Wilhelm II, a “world policy” aimed at securing colonies and global power.

But during the prelude to war, the kaiser and his aides didn’t feel confident. Germany’s brash behavior caused its encirclement by hostile powers. London, Paris, and St. Petersburg, Russia, formed a “Triple Entente” to block German expansion. By 1914, time was running short. Germany was losing ground economically to a fast-growing Russia; London and France were pursuing economic containment by blocking its access to oil and iron ore. Berlin’s key ally, Austria-Hungary, was being torn apart by ethnic tensions. At home, Germany’s autocratic political system was in trouble.


China today is what Japan and Germany is in the prelude before WW1 and WW2.

Basically a rising country, with little fuel left to sustain its ascendancy.
These two tiny countries have no comparison with China, they don't have lands, population, natural resources and robust domestic market.
 

Gary

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These two tiny countries have no comparison with China, they don't have lands, population, natural resources and robust domestic market.

duhhhh, as I said a big population is a double edged sword.

Since the late 2000s, however, the drivers of China’s rise have either stalled or turned around entirely. For example, China is running out of resources: Water has become scarce, and the country is importing more energy and food than any other nation, having ravaged its own natural resources. Economic growth is therefore becoming costlier: According to data from DBS Bank, it takes three times as many inputs to produce a unit of growth today as it did in the early 2000s.

 

xizhimen

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duhhhh, as I said a big population is a double edged sword.

Since the late 2000s, however, the drivers of China’s rise have either stalled or turned around entirely. For example, China is running out of resources: Water has become scarce, and the country is importing more energy and food than any other nation, having ravaged its own natural resources. Economic growth is therefore becoming costlier: According to data from DBS Bank, it takes three times as many inputs to produce a unit of growth today as it did in the early 2000s.

Till last year China was still the fastest growing economy in the world, industries, imports and exports all grew like crazy, at least much better than US which grew negatively, you can keep insist that China is declining, the west had been saying the same for 4 decades with more reasons than you listed, they wrote books about it, but let's wait and see what will happen when the time comes.
 

Nilgiri

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One can now predictably see the bot do its thing. Spam + repeat the same sentence. Boring.

This is why the bot is not taken credibly on this forum at all....combined with his deep predictable hate of certain countries including Turkey that a typical AI filter has been applied to in effort to pass threshold here hypocritically.

Maybe the bot can pass the Turing test one day, but it's doubtful.

==============================

In mean time there is actually relevant information to look on this subject of actual innovation, rather than CCP copy paste bot spam:

Intellectual property receipts in 2019-2020 (i.e what the country received for its IP from the world):

US =116 billion USD (142,000 patents granted abroad in 2019)

Japan = 45 billion USD (143,000 patents " " " ")

Germany = 35 billion USD (72,000 patents " " " " )

China got around 7 billion USD (39,000 patents " " " ")


One can do the value returned per patent ratio themselves.

Numbers all taken from WIPO and World Bank (no CCP involved "data" process here, all from what is done in international vetted exchange).
===============

Intellectual property payments in same period (i.e what the country spends for IP it uses from the world)

US spent around 40 billion USD ( a third of what it took in)

Japan spent 28 billion (about half of what it took in)

Germany spent 16 billion (about half of what it took in)

China spent around 38 billion USD (more than 5 times what it took in)

But of course they are innovating fast enough indeed....than the demographic window shrinking. Cuz they spam so.
 

Gary

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The world market has changed, now China is the world biggest market
robust domestic market.

did they consume enough to keep the economy running ??

 

Gary

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Till last year China was still the fastest growing economy in the world, industries, imports and exports all grew like crazy, at least much better than US which grew negatively, you can keep insist that China is declining, the west had been saying the same for 4 decades with more reasons than you listed, they wrote books about it, but let's wait and see what will happen when the time comes.

To make matters worse, China is turning away from the package of policies that promoted rapid growth. Under Xi, Beijing has slid back toward totalitarianism. Xi has appointed himself “chairman of everything,” destroyed any semblance of collective rule, and made adherence to “Xi Jinping thought” the ideological core of an increasingly rigid regime. And he has relentlessly pursued the centralization of power at the expense of economic prosperity.

State zombie firms are being propped up while private firms are starved of capital. Objective economic analysis is being replaced by government propaganda. Innovation is becoming more difficult in a climate of stultifying ideological conformity. Meanwhile, Xi’s brutal anti-corruption campaign has deterred entrepreneurship, and a wave of politically driven regulations has erased more than $1 trillion from the market capitalization of China’s leading tech firms. Xi hasn’t simply stopped the process of economic liberalization that powered China’s development: He has thrown it hard into reverse.


The economic damage these trends are causing is starting to accumulate—and it is compounding the slowdown that would have occurred anyway as a fast-growing economy matures. The Chinese economy has been losing steam for more than a decade: The country’s official growth rate declined from 14 percent in 2007 to 6 percent in 2019, and rigorous studies suggest the true growth rate is now closer to 2 percent. Worse, most of that growth stems from government stimulus spending. According to data from the Conference Board, total factor productivity declined 1.3 percent every year on average between 2008 and 2019, meaning China is spending more to produce less each year. This has led, in turn, to massive debt: China’s total debt surged eight-fold between 2008 and 2019 and exceeded 300 percent of GDP prior to COVID-19. Any country that has accumulated debt or lost productivity at anything close to China’s current pace has subsequently suffered at least one “lost decade” of near-zero economic growth.


 
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