Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

Madokafc

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Why would Lockheed Martin do this? They'll lose huge amount of money by giving us their technology and letting us producing our own F-16.

If we're serious about ToT stuff, for a country like us, I'm afraid the US is the last country you'd want to go to.

If Indonesia ready and commited to build at least 80 sample number, there is no problem for our side to help the Indonesian side with assembly lines and license producing of key items like airframe and the likes. Even intermediate the Indonesian government with US government and engine maker company in US to assembly engine in Indonesia. US government and LM ready to go all out in India cause India had commitment to build large number of fighter.

But if you are only talking about 16 to 32, the offset would be very limited and we already told you the reality in the beginning. We are giving you reality not false dream!!!
 

Parry Brima

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If Indonesia ready and commited to build at least 80 sample number, there is no problem for our side to help the Indonesian side with assembly lines and license producing of key items like airframe and the likes. Even intermediate the Indonesian government with US government and engine maker company in US to assembly engine in Indonesia. US government and LM ready to go all out in India cause India had commitment to build large number of fighter.

But if you are only talking about 16 to 32, the offset would be very limited and we already told you the reality in the beginning. We are giving you reality not false dream!!!

Precisely. That's exactly the reason why I said, for a country like us, the US (and Lockheed Martin) is the worst choice to do it.
 

Stuka Dive

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Precisely. That's exactly the reason why I said, for a country like us, the US (and Lockheed Martin) is the worst choice to do it.
Yeaahh....for a country which love to buy "ketengan" like us....any vendors countries will always offer the "basa-basi" package for ToT

Well...what to do??...just scratch the balls and watching the others get it

Still can get it though......only in my wet dream
 

Madokafc

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Precisely. That's exactly the reason why I said, for a country like us, the US (and Lockheed Martin) is the worst choice to do it.

You make no sense, if even the US government and Lockheed Martin which had tonnes of true transfer of technology experience, backing it up with great funding scheme, including management and assistance of how to proceed proper production line and promote export of the said product from partner countries (Turkey TAI, South Korean KAI, then Poland with their Black Hawk production lines and so on) is not suitable as a partner for offset and Transfer of Technology or knowledge, i can't see other countries can do much better, except what they are doing is more lean toward gimmick with a lot of trap being masquerade as sweetener.

Even India in which notoriously known as great partner of Russian prefer to continue do business with the US arm industry is because a clear cut advantage of US government and business industry with their deal package, including offset in assistance to build proper critical industry (as shown how India now in better position to supply Boeing parts, Apache airframe and so on).
 

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Military TOT is difficult to get, this is why BRIN ask Prabowo to get civilian TOT in any of Prabowo foreign military acquisition.

The country that has proven to give meaningful TOT to us is South Korea. Only with the partnership we can get meaningful TOT and also design experience like in KF21 program.

I have already revealed Rafale proposed TOT to Indonesia with 36 planes (proposal) and the TOT is only "seminar", like the one we have when we buy NASAM. The best Rafale can give us is only TOT in maintenance
 
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Parry Brima

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Yeaahh....for a country which love to buy "ketengan" like us....any vendors countries will always offer the "basa-basi" package for ToT

Well...what to do??...just scratch the balls and watching the others get it

Still can get it though......only in my wet dream

You make no sense, if even the US government and Lockheed Martin which had tonnes of true transfer of technology experience, backing it up with great funding scheme, including management and assistance of how to proceed proper production line and promote export of the said product from partner countries (Turkey TAI, South Korean KAI, then Poland with their Black Hawk production lines and so on) is not suitable as a partner for offset and Transfer of Technology or knowledge, i can't see other countries can do much better, except what they are doing is more lean toward gimmick with a lot of trap being masquerade as sweetener.

Even India in which notoriously known as great partner of Russian prefer to continue do business with the US arm industry is because a clear cut advantage of US government and business industry with their deal package, including offset in assistance to build proper critical industry (as shown how India now in better position to supply Boeing parts, Apache airframe and so on).

It's rather simple. Why would we want to waste huge amount of money to buy 80 F-16? That would be stupid.

Military TOT is difficult to get, this is why BRIN ask Prabowo to get civilian TOT in any of Prabowo foreign military acquisition.

The country that has proven to give meaningful TOT to us is South Korea. Only with the partnership we can get meaningful TOT like in KF21 program.

I have already revealed Rafale proposed TOT to Indonesia with 36 planes (proposal) and the TOT is only "seminar", like the one we have when we buy NASAM

Although pushing it, I can still understand if it's to buy 80 KFX. KFX has clear development path towards 5th gen. So we're buying not just past & current technology, but also future ones.

If it's between getting ToT from buying 80 F-16 or 80 KFX, then I'd definitely say KFX.
 

Indos

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It's rather simple. Why would we want to waste huge amount of money to buy 80 F-16? That would be stupid.



Although pushing it, I can still understand if it's to buy 80 KFX. KFX has clear development path towards 5th gen. So we're buying not just past & current technology, but also future ones.

If it's between getting ToT from buying 80 F-16 or 80 KFX, then I'd definitely say KFX.

If we buy F 16, the most we can get is Ofset (DI produce some part of F16 like happening during 1987 order). We have already made complex part in F 16 in DI which is wing in end of 1980's and beginning of 1990's.

Despite that with the current budget of 1,1 billion USD, it is better if we buy F 16 V, but I hope no constrain in maintaining the plane by ourselves, not like Apache deal where US people are staying in the base and do the maintenance. Our local industry will not learn anything if thing like this happen again.
 

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You make no sense, if even the US government and Lockheed Martin which had tonnes of true transfer of technology experience, backing it up with great funding scheme, including management and assistance of how to proceed proper production line and promote export of the said product from partner countries (Turkey TAI, South Korean KAI, then Poland with their Black Hawk production lines and so on) is not suitable as a partner for offset and Transfer of Technology or knowledge, i can't see other countries can do much better, except what they are doing is more lean toward gimmick with a lot of trap being masquerade as sweetener.

Even India in which notoriously known as great partner of Russian prefer to continue do business with the US arm industry is because a clear cut advantage of US government and business industry with their deal package, including offset in assistance to build proper critical industry (as shown how India now in better position to supply Boeing parts, Apache airframe and so on).
After JP, SK, TR built US jet in their respective country now they are moving forward with developing their own jet, why don't we use KFX as stepping stone to learn about jet fighter technology? Instead of getting ToT from ex:US, europe etc.
But of course we need to be seriously committed towards it, even better if the current re-negotiations also cover about continuing Indonesian participation through KFX development phase until block 3.

Paling banter dapet tot paling njahit, tapi kalo kfx njahit juga tapi juga dapet ilmu pas masa pengembangan produk juga, lebih bakaln dapet banyak pengetahuan lewat KFX tapi kalo kualitas hardware + software masih ada yang lebih baik dan batel prupen.
 

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It's rather simple. Why would we want to waste huge amount of money to buy 80 F-16? That would be stupid.



Although pushing it, I can still understand if it's to buy 80 KFX. KFX has clear development path towards 5th gen. So we're buying not just past & current technology, but also future ones.

If it's between getting ToT from buying 80 F-16 or 80 KFX, then I'd definitely say KFX.
And do you think SK will give you all the expertise and knowledges? do you really believe they will give it all that we ask, only by adding more shared budget and buy more units ?

SK has gone thousand miles of journey since 4 decades ago for them to get where they at as the fighter jet maker, today.

They started F-16 licensed program at 80's, followed by KT-1 Wong Bee, then co-developed with LM for T-50/A-50/ F-50, and finally came up with KFX program by technological assistance from LM (again).

In what decent reason for them to give everything they got along their bleeding journey to others? let say to the country that shares 50 : 50 budget and over 50 units buying commitment?

Military aerospace is one of the top notch technologies in human civilization, don't try to imagine we can mastery the same level with SK within couple of years, or even a decade. They did invest massively the human capital, not just populated thousand of engineers and skilled technicians, but to ensure regeneration across the 4 decades of journey, keep the learning curve high when handed over to the next generation. They had the road map since the very start.

We, as a nation, already had the same saga for the development of subsonic aircraft initiated by the late BJ Habibie. It is indeed fruitful. Because he had the road map, not just design an aircraft, but to built the aerospace industry itself. That's why we saw massive human capital investment during 80's to 90's, by sent up thousands of country's best brains abroad to every center of excellences and top universities around the globe.

Do we see similar human capital development for aerospace nowadays, in the same magnitude ( and frequency) ?
Recruits all top notch high school's student to be send up to top universities, provide further education for bright university students abroad, attracts Indonesian diaspora back home, or hire foreign top designers from top manufacturers ?

I didn't see any regime since post-reformation era has high commitment for this human capital as the old days. Or maybe there are...but I can't see it.

Another particular question in this supersonic fighter jet development only, What is the road map?

I really missed that old days saga
 

Stuka Dive

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It's rather simple. Why would we want to waste huge amount of money to buy 80 F-16? That would be stupid
If you think to buy (or built locally, if we want) latest F-16 Viper with all that glitters technology is that stupid, you can ask why Taiwan keep adding its F-16 fleets against the more frequent PLAAF air raids?

If we have 6 squadrons of full package vipers with conformal fuel tank spread across archipelago, don't you think it's not a gangs of the wolves guarding every corner of our sky?

At least, ask our TNI-AU fighter pilots, does the full gear F-16 Vipers is stupid choice or not?
 

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I will put this article from Angkasa Magazine so people who dont understand what the actual development process will understand.

I will bring what happened during first phase of development that started in 2011


Translation from Google translate:

February 6, 2014 (Angkasa/Space Magazine)

KFX / IFX program continued , Government Asked to Immediately Selecting Design

Korea was once considered Indonesia engineer do not understand about the design of a jet fighter. But the notion was quickly turned , when the Indonesian team describes the design and the various inputs. The Indonesian side also the one who finally managed to convince that the aircraft take-off weight of 50,000 pounds must .

Confirmation of the Parliament of South Korea on the resumption of the program KFX / IFX team warmly welcomed designers from Indonesia. They include asking both governments immediately call the engineers involved in preparing work that has been long overdue. They also want the governments of both countries to make sure one of the two designs that have been produced in the Technology Development phase for cultivation in the next phase .

"Program KFX / IFX is a multi - program years , costly, and involve various sectors and foreign partners. For that there must be a definite declaration on it goes. For Indonesia it is important to determine the financing schemes and their human resources planning, "said Dr Rais Zain, M. Eng , KFX / IFX Configuration Design Leader for Angkasa , in late January.

"In the near future Indonesia will also work on the N219 and R - 80. We do not have enough engineers to work three programs, especially KFX / IFX will take place until the 2020s. The government is expected to call home engineers who are now working abroad to come help the regeneration process. Outside there are approximately 200 people . If half of it can be returned to the country, it is enough to help, " added Rais who is also a lecturer at the Faculty of Aerospace Engineering ITB, Bandung.

As reported by the national media, the confirmation of the continuation of the program of making front - liner Korean - Indonesian fighter jets received by the Ministry of Defense on January 3, 2014. Notice is further announced Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro told reporters, Wednesday, January 8, 2014, on the sidelines of Rapim Kemenhan in Jakarta. Explanations related to exposure delivered weapon system procurement plans in the Strategic Plan II, 2015-2019.

The Indonesian government hopes the project of making the 4.5 generation fighter jet could be done because it would be a referral program to remove the dependence of the transfer of technology from other countries. Besides KFX / IFX, Indonesia is also pursuing a program of making submarines , warships, propellants , rockets, and tank size medium. For submarines, Indonesia is also cooperating with the same country.

Superior to the Su - 35Program KFX / IFX was stopped temporarily by Korea's new leader Park Geun - Hye end of 2012 after reviewing the state financially in the country. This prestigious project was worked on since the beginning of 2011, shortly after President Lee Myung - bak and President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono confirmed the bilateral cooperation in the defense field in Jakarta. From the Technology Development Phase that has been completed, a team of scientists has completed a number of conical design that later became two.

The two designs is a model of the stealth fighter jet -winning twin-engine air superiority with horizontally - tails in the back, and the other one is with canards on the front. "Each has consequences different financing and partners. Thus , it must first be decided which one is selected. It is important that when followed, all parties are ready to do it , "said Rais Zain , whose day-to- day lecturer at the Faculty of Engineering, Aerospace Engineering,ITB, Bandung.

As stated Wamenhan Sjafrie, Korean parliament has prepared 20 million U.S. dollars (temporary , Indonesia : $ 5 million) to continue this program in 2015. At that time , the team will go to the Engineering Manufacturing Development Phase. In addition must have a high thrust engine with a power to be able to fight in the air, the aircraft must also have weapons stored in the internal weapons bay , the data - link capable of randomizing communications, advanced radar target voters, and anti - jamming device.

The prototype is expected to finish by the end of the Strategic Plan II . Even if there are things that need to be criticized , it is a matter of operation requirements are much more determined the Korean Air Force . This was inevitable because the Korean bear 80 percent of the funding, and the country actually have a real enemy. This program is targeted to spawn a jet fighter with performance equivalent or superior to the opponent fighter jets which are the Sukhoi Su - 35.

Prerequisites itself dismissed the proposed counter designs KAI ( Korean Aerospace Industrie) recently, rather than to cut development costs are too great. In configuration ( see Space, December 2013 ), looks KFX type E is only one engine powered with weapons outside the radar sweep prone opponent.

Angkasa examine admiration of ADD ( Agency for Defense Development, Defence Research and Development Agency of Korea ) submitted to the Indonesian engineer team. Initially, the team assumes Korea really had no idea about the design of Indonesian fighter jets.

However, the assumption was turned when Indonesian engineers began to describe the design and the various inputs to the design of Korea. The Indonesian side also who ultimately ensure that the aircraft must have a takeoff weight of 50,000 pounds.(A.Darmawan/Angkasa magazine).


http://www.angkasa.co.id/index.php/...tkan-pemerintah-diminta-segera-memilih-desain

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This is the most respected aerospace media in Indonesia but unfortunatelly they have erased that 2014 page but I have posted the translation in previous KFX/IFX thread in 2014 in other forum.
 

Indos

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Inlet design of KF 21/IFX is also lead by Indonesian engineer (This is said by bu Anne (pejabat Menhan yg mengurusi KFX/IFX). The article is in CNN Indonesia I put it in KF21/IFX thread in Defense Hub. Miss Anne was present during CDR (Critical Design Review) meeting of KFX/IFX (September 2019)

1633194598871.png
 
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Indos

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The design of KF21/IFX is based on C 103 that is designed by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace+Institute Technology Bandung.

C 103 design ( there you can see the year of 2012), before KAI and LM comes to the program in 2015


1633191593846.png

Final design C 109 is just a refinement of C 103 design.

Indonesian wind tunnel (C 103 design)



Then detail design will be work on after basic design is made, detail design needs many design engineers, this is why as of July 2019, there were 114 Indonesian engineers in KAI

"As of July, 114 Indonesian engineers were sent to South Korea to work with Korea Aerospace Industries Co. (KAI), the country's sole aircraft manufacturer, to design and make a prototype of the fighter, according to a DAPA official."

 
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http://www.angkasa.co.id/index.php/...tkan-pemerintah-diminta-segera-memilih-desain

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is the most respected aerospace media in Indonesia but unfortunatelly they have erased that 2014 page but I have posted the translation in previous KFX/IFX thread in 2014 in other forum.
Wayback machine to the rescue:

 

Madokafc

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Sigh way back to previous years discussion.....

@Stuka Dive

@Indos

That's all according Angkasa magazine, do you had more comment from the South Korean counterpart itself about more Indonesia contribution???
 

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This PDF below is good example of a Road Map of SK aerospace industries(It's already shared on old thread before), it's an old document around 2006. At that year, they already have over 7,000 of highly qualified best talent pool of the nation. Kind of crystal clear road map for every programs. Perhaps somebody here can provide the big picture of our current road map? not just for our fighter jet development program, but all other programs ( N219, N2145, R-80, UAV, etc)

As for LAPAN rocket development and satellite technology, I still can see the big picture on their website.

well, we've seen some cancellation or postponed program such as N2145 and R-80, it should have plan B road map for those program as well.

As for the Angkasa magazine source, it's still like future expectations from the person involved in it at the time the project had been kick started.

Not to mentioned, the initial Indonesian program to have a single engine version. Now, MoD seems like to get double engine fighter jet. The change variables like this should also be reflected at the plan B or Plan C road map.

Alright, I am nobody. How dare I am questioning such a classified plans.
 

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Parry Brima

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If we have 6 squadrons of full package vipers with conformal fuel tank spread across archipelago, don't you think it's not a gangs of the wolves guarding every corner of our sky?

This argument is applicable to other fighters as well, not just F-16.

You call 6 squadrons of F-16 as gangs of wolves, so what about 6 squadrons of F-15EX, or 6 squadrons of Rafale, or 6 squadrons of Eurofighters? Gangs of Lions? Gangs of Bears? Gangs of badass motherfu**ers? :)

Heck, even 6 squadrons of Gripen (the most hated fighter in this forum LOL) will probably be our Gangs of Cheetahs :)

At least, ask our TNI-AU fighter pilots, does the full gear F-16 Vipers is stupid choice or not?

Now this is interesting since you're dragging (nyatut) TNI-AU name. Let's be honest, what's actually their wish? It's not even F-16 :)

 

Indos

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Sigh way back to previous years discussion.....

@Stuka Dive

@Indos

That's all according Angkasa magazine, do you had more comment from the South Korean counterpart itself about more Indonesia contribution???

This is stated by Korean official, dont use FB forum from Korean civilians that even dont understand about the program as a basis.

"Despite such a delay in payment, the Indonesian side has continued to send its researchers to South Korea to take part in the development process," Rep. Kim Joong-ro of the minor opposition Bareunmirae Party said during a parliamentary audit into the administration, voicing concern about technology leaks.

As of July, 114 Indonesian engineers were sent to South Korea to work with Korea Aerospace Industries Co. (KAI), the country's sole aircraft manufacturer, to design and make a prototype of the fighter, according to a DAPA official.


KAI Chief design engineer for KF21/IFX program have also stated the difficulty to get experience engineers in KF21/IFX program, they will be greatful to get DI engineers working with them.
 

Indos

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Korean is willing to share 70% of their knowledge to Indonesian engineers, this is said by senior KF21/IFX Indonesian design engineer to me directly. This is why both senior and junior engineers ( I also have ask them as well) are very supportive on the program.
 

Indos

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Bhai can you explain in detail what will Indonesia learn by 20 percent stake in KFX? How much this will lift Indonesian aerospace industry?


1. Experience in designing and developing a Stealth jet fighter. Previously Dirgantara Indonesia only has experience in designing a transport aircraft. 116 Indonesian design engineers now have the experience on designing a Stealth fighter jet. This will also make the engineers have more capability if someday Wingman drone or maybe fighter drone program are being pursue.

If we keep being in the program, it means we will get more knowledge during the testing phase and also during operational inshaAllah as we will get 1 prototype to be made in Indonesia and also other data during the testing stage of 7 prototypes tested in KAI will also be shared to DI. More understanding will be gained to see the comparison between wind tunnel testing and real flight.

2. In production DI also will gain more knowledge on new manufacturing method and will start using robotic system

3. In testing phase, DI will learn a lot as it is the first time they are doing testing for jet fighter, both for ground and flight test, and it is not just a fighter program but Stealth one. About 6 test pilots have been prepared, where one of them coming from DI design engineer ( who have learn to fly jet fighter) while 5 comes from Air Force pilot where they have got Aerospace degree from ITB and all of them have studied in England to be fighter test pilot. In essence, we are building capacity to be able to build Stealth fighter by our own, without a partner like the way DI develop N 250. N2130, and N 219 and together with other national companies and research agency develop MALE UCAV.

4. This project will make Indonesia Aerospace will produce jet fighter and it means in the future this line of business will likely to continue, just like our transport program which keep making newer plane. KF 21/IFX is also keep being developed into 6 generation fighter based on latest news (previously the program is to make the plane until block 3). This make the industry has more products, that is good for their business

5. I would say this program will also push DI to produce more planes within a year and give them more profit that will make their business more profitable. As Indonesia is expected to have Essential Force program after Minimum Essential Force is possibly completed in 2029, thus more planes will likely be bought ( if the program is inshaAllah successful), I would say we could buy around 200 planes, not mentioning if we also develop Wingman drone. It can potentially give Dirgantara Indonesia secured income and sales for quite long time

6. As DI has 1 prototype as experimental plane, so this prototype will make the engineers has some kind of vehicle to do various test that can excel their understanding and expertise in fighter jet design and also system integration. The prototype also possibly become the vehicle to get many knowledge on avionics and other components by using reverse engineering method and this of course will have to include other companies with expertise in electronics, engine, and other

7. It give better brand image on DI and this can effect their business in term of getting more support from leasing companies/banking system on their transport plane business, which mean their customer will get easier and cheaper financing from the leasing/banking industry

8. Base on recent renegotiation, DI will not only participate in fuselage manufacturing of all KF21/IFX and assembling of IFX, but also component in cockpit and engine. DI also has a subsidiary company who specialize in turbine manufacturing and engine MRO. That is the plan from Habibie from the start where in the future this company (PT Nusantara Turbin dan Propulsi) should make jet engine
 

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