Defence Q&A ASEAN military capabilities ranked

[Gary]

How are ASEAN militaries ranked from top to bottom ??

My list:

in 2020-2025 :

1. Singapore (undisputed champion)
2. Thailand
3. Indonesia
4. Vietnam
5. Malaysia
6. Myanmar
7. Philippines
8. Cambodia
9. Laos

after 2025 :

1. Singapore (undisputed champion)
2. Indonesia
3. Thailand
4. Vietnam
5. Malaysia
6. Myanmar
7. Philippines
8. Cambodia
9. Laos

I based my list based not only the sophistication of the hardware they employed, but also

• their doctrine (such as adoption network centric warfare, adoption of new military doctrine, Indonesia for example had adopted US Army HBCT in their doctrine for armor)
• their numbers of participation in international exercise (example: Singapore clearly lead ASEAN with their participation in top military exercise such as Red Flag, RIMPAC, followed by Thailand )
• International deployment (example: SG has training units in France, US and Australia thereby they're most interacted with professional militaries across the world compared to other ASEAN state )
• Military industries and research (SG again lead with ST Kinetics which has no equal in ASEAN )
• Close partnership with major military power (SG has a deep military cooperation with Israel for example, while Thailand is a major Non-NATO ally)

inputs appreciated.

 

[Madokafc]

Singapore is meh, they are over reliance with tech and always assume everything Will goes okay to their own way , meanwhile fog of war is real even in current space and information age!!! The case of Saudi with their very advance technology and unlimited resource (including drawing mercenaries with their unlimited money) is still being bogged down in Yaman told us a lot, let alone Singapore with more limited resource at hand and their limited space and footprint.

to face peer countries their National power is very limited and even to achieved the objective of conflict there is also a lot of big question if they can do it alone.

There is also another problem with their industry, they don't have completed chain of industry from processing raw material into sophisticated products and articles. There is also with energy , food And water supply. Any blockade and disruptive activities around their Islands would make Singapore unbearable.

 

[Gary]

Singapore is meh, they are over reliance with tech and always assume everything Will goes okay to their own way , meanwhile fog of war is real even in current space and information age!!! The case of Saudi with their very advance technology and unlimited resource (including drawing mercenaries with their unlimited money) is still being bogged down in Yaman told us a lot, let alone Singapore with more limited resource at hand and their limited space and footprint.

We cannot compare the quality of the officer corps of SG and SA, people spoke highly of their (SG) officers quality, the fact that their naval officers are given the role of fleet commander during RIMPAC says much about the level of trust and acknowledgement of their officer corps in particular from the US military.

as for S Arabia, gamb** from PD* mock them quite often, calling their officers as prince's

 

[Madokafc]

We cannot compare the quality of the officer corps of SG and SA, people spoke highly of their (SG) officers quality, the fact that their naval officers are given the role of fleet commander during RIMPAC says much about the level of trust and admiration of their officer corps in particular from the US military.

as for S Arabia, gamb** from PD* mock them quite often, calling their officers as prince's

Professional is right, but to face real conflict with all of the fog of war? They are untested and had no real experience to draw and adapted. Those Saudi princess at least had drawing some experience and improve a lot, with their deep resource and large foot print Saudi can afford any massive failure. But Singapore can't afford it!!

And as i said before, there is a lot to tell about them and their weaknesses , that's why they are more eager to use their military as tools to Made Friends and not being used to be tools in confrontation or conflict.

 

[500]

My rank of air forces:

Singapore - 520
Thailand - 247
Vietnam - 184
Indonesia - 181
Malaysia - 125
Myanmar - 120

Top 48 air forces in 2020 (based on aircraft quality and quantity)

The fleet numbers are from Flight International WAF 2021. Air/Ground points: F-16C = 1/1 F-16A = 0.7/0.8 F-16AM = 1/0.8 F-16A OCU = 1/0.9 F-16 block 52+ aka F-16I = 1.1/1.2 F-16 block 60 = 1.3/1.2 F-15A = 1.2/0.5 F-15C = 1.3/0.5 F-15E = 1.4/1.5 F-15S = 1.3/1.4 F-15SG = 1.5/1.5 F-18A = 1/1.1...

defencehub.live

Cambodia, Philippines and Laos lack any serious air force.

Navies

Singapore - 5 submarines, 6 frigates, 6 missile boats
Indonesia - 4 submarines, 7 frigates, 10 corvettes, 14 ASW corvettes, 18 missile boats
Vietnam - 6 submarines, 9 corvettes, 14 missile boats
Thailand - 1 aircraft carrier, 7 frigates, 4 corvettes, 3 missile boats
Malaysia - 2 submarines, 3 frigates, 6 corvettes, 8 missile boats
Myanmar - 1 submarine, 5 frigates, 3 corvettes, 13 missile boats
Philippines - 2 frigates, 1 corvette
Cambodia and Laos dont have any serious navy

GDP (nominal):

Indonesia - 1,159 bln
Philippines - 402 bln
Thailand - 539 bln
Malaysia - 387 bln
Singapore - 374 bln
Vietnam - 355 bln
Myanmar - 76 bln
Cambodia - 27 bln
Laos - 20 bln

 

[Gary]

My rank of air forces:

Vietnam - 184
Indonesia - 181

Hmm interesting between Vietnam and Indonesia.

does this only equate fighter jets ? what about transport, ISR etc ??

Indonesia has an overall better air force fleet, imo. Put it this way Indonesia has a larger:

1. transport fleet (23 Hercules with 5 more on order + 1 KC-130B, 9 C-295 medium transport, 5 C-235 medium transport, 5 NC-212, compared that with Viet Nam 3 C-295 and 3 C-212 with no air to air refueler)
2. Surveillance ( 3 737-20x maritime patrol, 2 CN-235 MPA compared to Vietnam single PZL-M28) PS: Indonesian Navy operate an even larger fleet of MPA's
3. Combat drone fleet ( 6 CH-4 UAV with AR-1 missiles, Vietnam not yet operating UCAV)

 

[Viva_vietnamm]

Cambodia and Laos dont have any serious navy

GDP (nominal):

Indonesia - 1,159 bln
Philippines - 402 bln
Thailand - 539 bln
Malaysia - 387 bln
Singapore - 374 bln
Vietnam - 355 bln
Myanmar - 76 bln
Cambodia - 27 bln
Laos - 20 bln

Cambodia and Laos are under VN's protection,Lao's leaders are VNese, so they don't need airforce and navy.

 

[Madokafc]

Between 2025-2030, Indonesia would Leap frogged greatly if their procurement process going smoothly.

At least in the Naval Arsenal, the Singapore Navy would be very lacking in number and quantity, not to mention the Naval Aviation branch and Marine Corps Indonesia is greatly lead the way.

Six CN 235 MPA
11 Euro Panther Naval utility helicopters
5 NBell 412

Indonesia also likely to get their two Itver Huitveld class variants at the time
There is also Six FREMM
2 indigenous OPV 90 class

 

[Gary]

At least in the Naval Arsenal, the Singapore Navy would be very lacking in number and quantity, not to mention the Naval Aviation branch and Marine Corps Indonesia is greatly lead the way.
.

The Singapore navy had always been smaller yet somewhat more capable than the Indonesian Navy.
You're assuming that the RSN stagnate while only TNI-AL grows, on the contrary the RSN will be somewhat larger (in tonnage) than the current one by the planned acquisition of :

1. Multi role combat vessel (MRCV) which will be in same class size with FREMM or AH140.

2. Invincible class submarine

3. Joint multi mission support ship.

Which would likely be an LHD.

This is just some of the planned purchase of the RSN, their operational concept are also more advanced than ours where they planned USV capability and other stuff while we lack.

In short the RSN will still lead ASEAN even if Indonesian navy is larger.

But you got a point here our navy will once more be a potent navy that no one in ASEAN dared to test.

 

[Madokafc]

The Singapore navy had always been smaller yet somewhat more capable than the Indonesian Navy.
You're assuming that the RSN stagnate while only TNI-AL grows, on the contrary the RSN will be somewhat larger (in tonnage) than the current one by the planned acquisition of :

1. Multi role combat vessel (MRCV) which will be in same class size with FREMM or AH140.

2. Invincible class submarine

3. Joint multi mission support ship.

Which would likely be an LHD.

This is just some of the planned purchase of the RSN, their operational concept are also more advanced than ours where they planned USV capability and other stuff while we lack.

In short the RSN will still lead ASEAN even if Indonesian navy is larger.

But you got a point here our navy will once more be a potent navy that no one in ASEAN dared to test.

No lah, Indonesian Navy actually lead in the use of the most potent Naval technology far far far from the Singaporean own until 1997 economy crisis, Singapore is only in the last two decades lead the way!!

Indonesian Navy was the first in the region to own the most modern diesel Submarine by the acquisition of Cakra class in early 1980's, the first in the region to had modern Frigates vessels equipped with state of art modern CMS in Ahmad Yani class, the first in the region to acquire modern ASW Corvette in Fatahillah class and already had modern sub hunting sonar and CMS along with their weapon system, the first to acquire modern complete fleets of Advance FPB 57 with the acquisition of series FPB 57 design from Lursen Germany, the first in the region to have dedicated modern Sub hunting aircraft with the acquisition of Fairey Gannet and retain the capability to the seventy decades with Soviet Made Il 28 T torpedo bomber variants and still retain modern MPA aircraft in CN 235. That's had been done while Singapore Navy only had gun boat and some Missiles Boats in the 80's and 90's decades.

And the Singapore MRCV along with their other plan is actually still plan and not yet being steel cutting or even signed as contract deals. Only their U218 SG is already ready.

For USV and other stuff all along Indonesia is also going the way and there is some program being done. Not to mention proof concept of using UAV from LPD and Frigates is already focus here.

 

[Gary]

No lah, Indonesian Navy actually lead in the use of the most potent Naval technology far far far from the Singaporean own until 1997 economy crisis, Singapore is only in the last two decades lead the way!!

Indonesian Navy was the first in the region to own the most modern diesel Submarine by the acquisition of Cakra class in early 1980's, the first in the region to had modern Frigates vessels equipped with state of art modern CMS in Ahmad Yani class, the first in the region to acquire modern ASW Corvette in Fatahillah class and already had modern sub hunting sonar and CMS along with their weapon system, the first to acquire modern complete fleets of Advance FPB 57 with the acquisition of series FPB 57 design from Lursen Germany, the first in the region to have dedicated modern Sub hunting aircraft with the acquisition of Fairey Gannet and retain the capability to the seventy decades with Soviet Made Il 28 T torpedo bomber variants and still retain modern MPA aircraft in CN 235. That's had been done while Singapore Navy only had gun boat and some Missiles Boats in the 80's and 90's decades.

And the Singapore MRCV along with their other plan is actually still plan and not yet being steel cutting or even signed as contract deals. Only their U218 SG is already ready.

For USV and other stuff all along Indonesia is also going the way and there is some program being done. Not to mention proof concept of using UAV from LPD and Frigates is already focus here.

I doubt that, when was the last time Indonesian navy execute a successful BMD and anti cruise missile test ?? The RSN had done this multiple time during RIMPAC and Ex Pacific Griffin with 100% success rate, 7 successful test in the last 12 years

1. They are already a network centric navy while were still talking about it.
2. Their submarines are ready with AIP, while ours don't
3. They operate a real LPD with CMS and real guns while ours are not
4. Their MPA has anti ship launching capability while ours don't
5. Their have more VLS tube loaded with missile than ours (320 VLS vs our mere 72, in which only 24 are missile loaded
6. They already operate working USV while we're not

Mind to tell, the RSN is by far the only navy that had the privilege of leading a surface combat group in RIMPAC, if they're not as capable the US wouldn't mind handing it to them, and as for the signing of contract, they WILL sign it, the Singapore armed forces are not your usual dillydallying armed forces, their entire nation depended on the armed forces being strong.

The gap between the RSN and TNI-AL is just that high.

 

[Lordimperator]

320 VLS

I think there are only 6 ships in Formidable class

 

[Gary]

I think there are only 6 ships in Formidable class

add the 16 VLS on the 8 Independence class LMV

Independence-class littoral mission vessel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

edit: it's 12 VLS actually so the number is

32x6= 192
12x8 = 96

so it's actually 288 tubes

 

[Indos]

Just cut gas supply from Indonesia and sabotage water supply from Malaysia, Singapore will be surrender

No need to have war

 

[Gary]

So the final total VLS count for the RSN is actually

32 x 6 on Formidable class =192
12 x 8 on Independence class = 96
16 x 6 on Victory class =96

grand total VLS = 384 VLS

and the final VLS count for the Indonesian Navy

12 x 2 on Martadinata class = 24
16 x 3 on Bung Tomo (with no missiles)= 48

grand total VLS = 72


that is HUGE, not to mention that a single Formidable class has the space to carry 24 x AShM if needed

 

[Lordimperator]

and the final VLS count for the Indonesian

Would you mind to add the Indo Navy future surface combatants even its based on rumour recently?

 

[Gary]

Would you mind to add the Indo Navy future surface combatants even its based on rumour recently?

there's no legit info on the final configuration of the ship, but if PAL spec are proven to be correct then it could be like this by 2030

2 x 12 on Martadinata's = 24 VLS
3 x 16 on Bung Tomo =48 VLS (note: all will use sylver VLS with VL MICA)
2 x 72 on AH140 = 144 VLS

there's no info about FREMM, but let's just assume it's 16 (standard FREMM)

6 x 16 = 96 VLS

grand total = 312

let's just hope for ships the size of FREMM our navy opt for 32 VLS.

if yes than the grand total is =408

 

[Gary]

Just cut gas supply from Indonesia and sabotage water supply from Malaysia, Singapore will be surrender

No need to have war

Sing is more resilient than you think, if we cut gas they'll turn instead to Qatar.

anyway this thread is purely from a military capability perspective, no need to derail it further.

 

[Madokafc]

I doubt that, when was the last time Indonesian navy execute a successful BMD and anti cruise missile test ?? The RSN had done this multiple time during RIMPAC and Ex Pacific Griffin with 100% success rate, 7 successful test in the last 12 years

1. They are already a network centric navy while were still talking about it.
2. Their submarines are ready with AIP, while ours don't
3. They operate a real LPD with CMS and real guns while ours are not
4. Their MPA has anti ship launching capability while ours don't
5. Their have more VLS tube loaded with missile than ours (320 VLS vs our mere 72, in which only 24 are missile loaded
6. They already operate working USV while we're not

Mind to tell, the RSN is by far the only navy that had the privilege of leading a surface combat group in RIMPAC, if they're not as capable the US wouldn't mind handing it to them, and as for the signing of contract, they WILL sign it, the Singapore armed forces are not your usual dillydallying armed forces, their entire nation depended on the armed forces being strong.

The gap between the RSN and TNI-AL is just that high.

You give that much credit, and downplayed our too much

Well that's up to you