India Army Small Arms

[Zapper]

Why we are doing this? If I have to take a guess, like I said it could be us giving the Russians a biscuit and hopefully avoid buying a larger order for AKs for RR/infantry (which in turn may get something better like additional SIG 716s, indigenous alternatives, or something else).

There was a recent report which came out 10 days prior to the 70k AK-103 deal that India is going ahead with 670k license production Amethi JV. Also, we've significantly cut our Russian imports and shifted our priorities to Israeli, French or American platforms if an indigenous option isn't available. Do you think these 70k rifles would make any impact given their total value is around $1mn

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1426101065129234435

Secondly, I've noticed Sig-716 has a significantly high recoil that full auto has a chance to cause injuries...looks like it works best in single fire or burst mode. Any idea what IA's reactions are regarding such issues?

We've received 2 tranches with the 3rd under order totalling 216k rifles. If we order another 72k, that'll bump up the total sigs in our inventory to 288k rifles which'll be a dumb decision for importing the entire lot instead of license manufacturing the whole

Anti-terrorism is not the job of IAF personnel. But what about war time? What if ~1,000 enemy paratroopers descend on an airfield? How would ~100 Garud or NSG stop them? You expect the personnel stationed there to run around unarmed or given a rifle to at least have a chance of defending themselves if the need arises?

I get your point but I still don't buy this being the reason for procurement of 70k rifles for IAF at this time ...let's see whom they're destined for

 

[Gessler]

Secondly, I've noticed Sig-716 has a significantly high recoil that full auto has a chance to cause injuries...looks like it works best in single fire or burst mode. Any idea what IA's reactions are regarding such issues?

Any 7.62x51 platform will have considerably higher recoil than IA's existing 5.56 INSAS staple. But among 7.62x51/.308 platforms, an AR-10 platform like the SIG 716 will actually have significantly milder recoil impulse compared to types like SLR - thanks to the buffer mechanism.

Obviously, IA will have to adapt their INSAS-tailored training doctrines taking the new weapon platform into account. But this will take time.

We've received 2 tranches with the 3rd under order totalling 216k rifles. If we order another 72k, that'll bump up the total sigs in our inventory to 288k rifles which'll be a dumb decision for importing the entire lot instead of license manufacturing the whole


I get your point but I still don't buy this being the reason for procurement of 70k rifles for IAF at this time ...let's see whom they're destined for

Three tranches? Wasn't it just two? And far as I know, while there was talk of approval (some reports may have misinterpreted as ordered) for additional 72k, and of the deal being fast-tracked but did we actually place that order? I don't recall seeing any report that said we put pen to paper.

 

[Zapper]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438795162071752704

and

 

[Zapper]

Any 7.62x51 platform will have considerably higher recoil than IA's existing 5.56 INSAS staple. But among 7.62x51/.308 platforms, an AR-10 platform like the SIG 716 will actually have significantly milder recoil impulse compared to types like SLR - thanks to the buffer mechanism.

Obviously, IA will have to adapt their INSAS-tailored training doctrines taking the new weapon platform into account. But this will take time.



Three tranches? Wasn't it just two? And far as I know, while there was talk of approval (some reports may have misinterpreted as ordered) for additional 72k, and of the deal being fast-tracked but did we actually place that order? I don't recall seeing any report that said we put pen to paper.

Looks like you're right. Some media outlet misreported it and I remember it being discussed on some forum

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1438795162071752704

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and

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Well overdue, need to see lot more orders from IA.

 

[Zapper]

Well overdue, need to see lot more orders from IA.

IN and IAF are definitely looking inwards for their future projects and induction of next gen tech. IN has always traditionally built all or most of it's naval platforms in Indian shipyards though some of the sub-systems were imported and IAF has also given contracts to local private firms for it's drone tech

It's high time IA should follow suit. While Tonbo, MKU and TASL/TAML are getting orders...we should cancel the OFB-Kalashnikov AK-203 contract and go for a license production of AR-15 styled platform with some local defence firm

 

[crixus]

Bengaluru’s SSS Defence beats Israeli firm, will be first from India to upgrade Army’s AK-47s​

Before SSS Defence won this tender, Israel’s Fab Defense had a monopoly on the market, having upgraded a few thousand Army rifles in the past 10 years.​

SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP 31 October, 2021 6:27 pm IST

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An upgraded AK-47, with earmuffs lying next to it | By special arrangement
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New Delhi: Indian small arms firm SSS Defence has defeated Israeli firm Fab Defense, also known as Zahal, to bag a contract to upgrade a limited number of Kalashnikov rifles with a unit of the Indian Special Forces, ThePrint has learnt.
Sources in the defence and security establishment told ThePrint that the Bengaluru-based SSS emerged as the lowest bidder for the tender for upgrading 24 AK-47 rifles in service with a particular unit.

“This is the first time when an Indian company, with its own indigenous design and product, will upgrade a rifle for the Indian Army,” a source said.
Till now, Fab Defense had a monopoly in the Indian market over the upgrade of AK-47s in service with the Army. Different units of the Army have been upgrading their Kalashnikovs to suit modern warfare and Fab Defense has managed to upgrade a few thousand rifles over the last decade.
Sources also pointed out that until now, all the materials needed for upgrades were imported, and the SSS contract could actually open up room for more such deals with a focus on indigenous prod
The sources said the upgrade would entail a new foldable butt stock for the rifle, a new dust cover that will allow mounting of sights, and changes to the fore end, which will allow mounting of a bipod or a knife when needed, besides hand guard and vertical grip.
Sources said SSS has also offered to upgrade the rifle with a flash hider at no extra cost, since it was not part of the requirements issued by the particular unit of the Army.
Interestingly, while all upgrades by Fab Defense involved parts made of polymer, SSS Defence is offering aerospace alloys, sources said.
As reported by ThePrint, the company is also eyeing a possible contract from the Army for the upgrade of the legendary Dragunov sniper rifle, commonly known in the armed forces as DSR.
The Northern Command has come out with a Request for Proposal for the upgrade of 90 pieces of the nearly three-decade-old rifle, but overall, the Army is estimated to have anywhere between 6,000-7,000 pieces of the DSR.

Bengaluru’s SSS Defence beats Israeli firm, will be first from India to upgrade Army’s AK-47s

Before SSS Defence won this tender, Israel’s Fab Defense had a monopoly on the market, having upgraded a few thousand Army rifles in the past 10 years.

theprint.in

 

[crixus]

@Nilgiri @Jackdaws

 

[Zapper]

Glad to see an Indian firm winning this contract even though the forces should've phased out AK-47s since several of em were actually captured from terrorists

A couple of different variants of SSS's AK-47 SOPMOD and upgrade kits

SSS's Dragunov upgrade looked pretty cool

 

[Jackdaws]

How does one buy a small arm in India legally? I hear it's a pretty tedious procedure.

 

[crixus]

The contract is for fucking 24 rifles ...... seems like our policy and decision makers have some allergy with Indian companies , these forceses survived with Insas for 2 decades but when it comes to Indian private Indian industry products their testing become golden standards

feeling bad to say but ATAGS are going on same way and Bharat forge might end with no contract of what so ever

 

[Zapper]

How does one buy a small arm in India legally? I hear it's a pretty tedious procedure.

How to buy a gun in India

The process of possessing a gun license is extremely difficult, involving a whole lot of paperwork, redtape and bureaucracy and will take years to get an application processed even if everything looks rights

The kind of guns available for regular civilians are super basic, if not outright ridiculous coming outta the OFB stable. I'd rather carry a machete over such weird looking guns

 

[Zapper]

The contract is for fucking 24 rifles ......

That is a start...once tested, they might end up giving a contract to upgrade all or most AK-47s in our inventory. But the major concern is how long will IA conduct these tests.

My question is why waste money on upgrading these age old AKs...many of which came from terrorists most probably made in the illegal gun shops of western pakistan. Unless these upgrades are costing us <$300 (30% the cost of a new Sig-716 or AK-203), it doesn't make sense to spend anymore and upgrade such rusty rifles

 

[crixus]

That is a start...once tested, they'll might end up giving a contract to upgrade all or most AK-47s in our inventory. But the major concern is how long will IA conduct these tests.

My question is why waste money on upgrading these age old AKs...many of which came from terrorists most probably made in the illegal gun shops of western pakistan. Unless these upgrades are costing us <$300 (30% the cost of a new Sig-716 or AK-203), it doesn't make sense to spend anymore and upgrade such rusty rifles

you remembers the test of ATAGS and now they are complaining about weight after spending so much time on testing.

I am not sure about their philosphy behind the upgrades , but if they need to upgarde some old weapon then upgrade INSAS and give them to police .

Why dont they uses the SSS rifles instead of upgrading some old crap( as you have highlighted)

 

[crixus]

FIRST LOOK: Indian Private Sector Answer To Kalashnikov Rifle Out Soon - Livefist

An Indian private sector firearms technology firm is all set to unveil and offer for test an assault rifle that it claims is an answer, and improvement, over the legendary Russian Kalashnikov AK-47 and its derivatives. The Indian Army and security forces are currently one of the largest users of…

www.livefistdefence.com

 

[Zapper]

you remembers the test of ATAGS and now they are complaining about weight after spending so much time on testing.

Same happened with Arjun MBT. First they end up conducting rigorous and endless tests & trails after which they come up with unreasonable changes in specs with an extremely tight deadline. If DRDO doesn't end up meeting those, they'd go with a foreign product. In the case of ATAGS, IA wants M777 which is the primary reason for weight change by which they can kill both Danush & ATAGS projects

I am not sure about their philosphy behind the upgrades , but if they need to upgarde some old weapon then upgrade INSAS and give them to police

It's not IA's responsibility to upgrade INSAS and give it to the police, the current form is more than enough for Indian state police operations. Also, IA has determined AKs to be more reliable over INSAS

Why dont they uses the SSS rifles instead of upgrading some old crap( as you have highlighted)

SSS's P72 and other P-series rifles are yet to be tested. Also, how will they receive kickbacks if they go for a domestic product!!

 

[crixus]

Same happened with Arjun MBT. First they end up conducting rigorous and endless tests & trails after which they come up with unreasonable changes in specs with an extremely tight deadline. If DRDO doesn't end up meeting those, they'd go with a foreign product. In the case of ATAGS, IA wants M777 which is the primary reason for weight change by which they can kill both Danush & ATAGS projects

It's not IA's responsibility to upgrade INSAS and give it to the police, the current form is more than enough for Indian state police operations. Also, IA has determined AKs to be more reliable over INSAS

SSS's P72 and other P-series rifles are yet to be tested. Also, how will they receive kickbacks if they go for a domestic product!!

@Nilgiri you input si required...

Regarding the ATAGS its will be ATHOS in the end , you remember that defence journo Ajai Shukla nakedly vouching for ATHOS and may be in end Indian Army end up getting them instead of ATAGS.

You remember the fuck they did with K-9 Vajra , they ordered 100 , with in 1 year they orderd 40 more , I dont know if they dont even know the actual requirements or we have fucking illiterates sitting at policy making tables .

Regarding SSS rifles , I concur your point of view , the fun part is UAE established Caracal in 14 years , start using their weapons and even offering to India .......

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri you input si required...

Regarding the ATAGS its will be ATHOS , you remember that defence journo Ajai Shukla nakedly voucking for ATHOS and may be in end Indian Army end up getting them instead of ATAGS.

You remember the fuck they did with K-9 Vajra , they ordered 100 , with in 1 year they orderd 40 more , I dont know if they dont even know the actual requirements or we have fucking illiterates sitting at policy making tables .

Regarding SSS rifles , I concur your point of view , the fun part is UAE established Caracal in 14 years , start using their weapons and even offering to India .......

They never changed the arty babus.

Its the same ppl that made careers during 20 years of lost time (bofors....yay time for drama inflation).....so you get in with the new boss, out with the old boss blah blah...

The salient efforts by private industry ultimately become window dressing and window shopping efforts.

I saw issues of this really arise as to what Modi admin was not doing years ago....so now its just "wutevs"...

I was willing (and happy) to be proven wrong on it....but its not the case.

OFB sand pile shifiting ("corporatisation") is same thing.....you are not getting rid of the problem, just distributing it a bit more and hope something better evolves heh.

Small arms and arty have hamstrung India badly....no surprise. Read last bit for army:

The 4 Submarines Competing For The Indian Navy’s P-75I Program

The 4 Submarines Competing For The Indian Navy’s P-75I Program The Indian Navy's P-75I submarines will be larger and much more potent than the Kalvari Class now entering service. They will be the bedrock of India's submarine fleet at a time when the strategic focus is leaning towards China as...

defencehub.live

 

[crixus]

They never changed the arty babus.

Its the same ppl that made careers during 20 years of lost time (bofors....yay time for drama inflation).....so you get in with the new boss, out with the old boss blah blah...

The salient efforts by private industry ultimately become window dressing and window shopping efforts.

I saw issues of this really arise as to what Modi admin was not doing years ago....so now its just "wutevs"...

I was willing (and happy) to be proven wrong on it....but its not the case.

OFB sand pile shifiting ("corporatisation") is same thing.....you are not getting rid of the problem, just distributing it a bit more and hope something better evolves heh.

Small arms and arty have hamstrung India badly....no surprise. Read last bit for army:

The 4 Submarines Competing For The Indian Navy’s P-75I Program

The 4 Submarines Competing For The Indian Navy’s P-75I Program The Indian Navy's P-75I submarines will be larger and much more potent than the Kalvari Class now entering service. They will be the bedrock of India's submarine fleet at a time when the strategic focus is leaning towards China as...

defencehub.live

you know what confuses me same army has problems ATAGS and did all the testings but inducts M777 within 6 months .
ATHOS is vouched by all possible most influential journos in India at the cost of Indian product .
The same army used INSAS in Kargil but has problem with a rifle from Indian manufacturer who is vilingly saying we keep on improving the product but they need to butter russian ass by buying AK 203 which is like 60 years old design.
Same army rejects tonbo but in emergency during the Pathankot attacks asks for the same product . If we common people understand what are they doing why the govt is sleeping

 

[Zapper]

Regarding SSS rifles , I concur your point of view , the fun part is UAE established Caracal in 14 years , start using their weapons and even offering to India .......

Neither SSS nor Caracal really have the capability to entirely design an AR from scratch. Caracal still uses western consultants and design firms...we'd actually be kidding ourselves to assume Arabs can design a firearm from scratch

SSS infact partnered with LMT originally but since they intend the IP to be Indian, they got outta the JV and hired consultants similar to what Caracal did. Their Saber and Viper sniper rifles are very similar to LMTs offerings

You remember the fuck they did with K-9 Vajra , they ordered 100 , with in 1 year they orderd 40 more , I dont know if they dont even know the actual requirements or we have fucking illiterates sitting at policy making tables .

K9 Vajra is a whole different ball game since there is no DRDO alternative nor any other indigenous offering in it's class which is why it makes sense to go for K9. On the brighter side, the initial 100 and the newly ordered 40 have been assembled in India with a decent % of components/materials sourced from Indian firms

you know what confuses me same army has problems ATAGS and did all the testings but inducts M777 within 6 months .
ATHOS is vouched by all possible most influential journos in India at the cost of Indian product

It's quite evident they're going with Israeli or American weapons systems not just for their love towards foreign maal but primarily due to kickbacks

The same army used INSAS in Kargil but has problem with a rifle from Indian manufacturer who is vilingly saying we keep on improving the product but they need to butter russian ass by buying AK 203 which is like 60 years old design.

A point to note, we're not getting the AK-203 but a hybrid of 103 & 203 which is still costing us around $1k ... Sig-716 is exactly costing us around the same despite being an American product and fully imported. Given how AK-203 deal is being delayed and IA ordering additional tranches of Sig-716s, I wouldn't be surprised if we scrap AK deal altogether and end up ordering another 1-2 tranches of Sigs totaling 300k rifles