Air-Force Turkey asks U.S. to buy 40 F-16 jets to upgrade Air Force

[Manomed]

@Nilgiri

What you see here is a lack of leadership. When you don't have a direction you try to move in every direction.

A leader has a vision of where he wants to go, a charlatan, like the one that we have, doesn't have a vision, he just runs around in circles trying to convince people that he has a great plan. He doesn't.


Are we firends with Russia? Are we enemies? One day Russia is bombing our troops in Syria, the other day we're buying S400s, so do we want to become friends with Russia? No no we're supporting Ukraine.

Do we want F35? No we want F16

Hürjet or Su25? Why not both?

Sheep will defend this.

Best explanation I've heard in a while

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri

What you see here is a lack of leadership. When you don't have a direction you try to move in every direction.

A leader has a vision of where he wants to go, a charlatan, like the one that we have, doesn't have a vision, he just runs around in circles trying to convince people that he has a great plan. He doesn't.


Are we firends with Russia? Are we enemies? One day Russia is bombing our troops in Syria, the other day we're buying S400s, so do we want to become friends with Russia? No no we're supporting Ukraine.

Do we want F35? No we want F16

Hürjet or Su25? Why not both?

Sheep will defend this.

It has overall been succinctly put a number of times by members like @GoatsMilk out on this forum...and number of others I enjoy to read and muse about later maybe.

Past that I consult with number of my TR friends about this kind of stuff....and there is agreement on lot (underlying) concerning this most unnecessary drift by TR under this admin.

Any nation state leadership must soundly recognise the balance of ambition and pragmatism....no matter what ideology/compulsion propels them in their current investiture of power, control (and responsibility).

Where you want to be (a fun but repetitive matter in political debates given potentials/dreams capture human minds underneath naturally) must be treated with due cognition to where you are (rationally) now....and where you were....and the deeper questions like why.

It is nationstates that can craft these contours (constitutionally and institutionally) the best with deference to the expectation and inevitability for any sampling of leaders (good, bad and mix) that they will get in longterm cycles (due to hot button politicking and amnesia etc that drive the rise of good and bad leaders)....that end up becoming the most successful long term.

As the best is harnessed well and the worst is mitigated well....as they both appear over time.

In the longer time frame, ambitions dont seem so hollow, the country itself becomes genuinely powerful, confident and secure. The politics (ideally) matures with that as well.

Anyway let us see how rest of this year plays out and next year on this threads matters (dont want to go off topic into politics etc too much). I will watch with interest. Turkey is very unique and fascinating country to me.

Its overall structure is set up by a great leader that has largely gotten it to where it is compared to what was facing it at his time. But like my signature says....100 years passes, things erode in memory in enough....or are simply not grasped enough to begin with in the downstream population that didnt see the trials and tribulations of that crucial crucible.

 

[Quasar]

I skipped past lot of discussion (i.e just read your reply here and some others very briefly)....so sorry if some of this already talked about...

Are the Su-25 rumours really true though (likely to pan out etc)?

Or its part of some rumour mill thing for pressure generation etc?

Frogfoots make sense if you got them/inherited them cheap from USSR breakup.

Otherwise their MRO, weapons logistics for NATO/western-centric system country is going to be a unnecessary toll (dont let "compatibility" fool you too much).

Keep that stuff in hurjet, heli and UAV projects (esp network sensoring between these) for CAS.

A CAS hurjet variant is probably ideal if you need dedicated platform.

I remember long discussion I had many years back with retired USAF guy....and he told me yes in media there is lot of support for retaining A-10....but certain things have move deeply in CAS capability by sensoring that F-35 can do in that role.

Consider that this is A-10 which is far superior in every way to frogfoot.

Consider also the production has stopped:

Russia Discontinues Su-25 Production - Defense Security Monitor

A Russian official has announced that production of the Su-25 ground attack aircraft has stopped. Russia’s Industry and Trade Minister, Denis Manturov, announced on February 7, 2017 that the Russian …

dsm.forecastinternational.com

So where is turkey (hypothetically) planning to acquire the airframes, and how old are they? (this re-inserts into MRO costs and availability impact).

Hurjet-CAS is way to go. Is the interim requirement really that severe till its ready?

İn fact as you know Elbit had a modernization program ''scorpio'' total 6 SU 25 was modernized for Georgia and Turkmenistan if I am not wrong.

SU 25 has no to little value for Turkey or for her doctrine. IMO at most this visit should be seen as a talk on possible Turkish modernization of SU 25??? there are around 500 SU 25 in the world (around 200 of them are in Russia) modernazing old Russian jets may still be profitable for TAI & Aselsan???

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455972092764213254

interesting if true? hard to say whether USA or Russia should be woried?

 

[Nilgiri]

İn fact as you know Elbit had a modernization program ''scorpio'' total 6 SU 25 was modernized for Georgia and Turkmenistan if I am not wrong.

Makes sense if you got airframes already (inherited), short on funds and looking to stretch em out service and capability wise.

Doesn't apply to Turkey.

Turkey is on another playing field. There are reasons for A league to visit B league to have a play.....but this is not really one of those reasons IMO.

I expect this rumour to be nipped in the bud relatively soon, lets see.

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456693062479060999

 

[guest12]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456693062479060999

Israel-Turkiye was supposed to security partners until 2008(Mavi Marmara) yet U.S. being PKK's main sponsor started at early 1990s. , not after 2008!

People need to understand importance of these two dates and stop daydreaming already.

 

[MADDOG]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456693062479060999

I've never been more annoyed at Israel over a statement before.

 

[Ardabas34]

Btw, the second term says "avoid". Why is Jewish diaspora reluctant at getting Moscow involved at preventing Turkey?
They dont trust Russia?
I thought Israel and Russia had good relations.

 

[Anastasius]

Btw, the second term says "avoid". Why is Jewish diaspora reluctant at getting Moscow involved at preventing Turkey?
They dont trust Russia?
I thought Israel and Russia had good relations.

Jewish-American liberals and Israeli Jews are two different things.

For example, letting the SDF get stronger is against Israeli interests in the long-term. So why is JINSA so interested in it?

Because this is about establishing a stronger US footprint in Syria. Hence the emphasis on keeping Moscow out of the proceedings.

The US wants to hijack Assad and the various anti-rebel factions in Syria from Russia's grasp.

 

[LegionnairE]

Jewish-American liberals and Israeli Jews are two different things.

For example, letting the SDF get stronger is against Israeli interests in the long-term. So why is JINSA so interested in it?

Because this is about establishing a stronger US footprint in Syria. Hence the emphasis on keeping Moscow out of the proceedings.

The US wants to hijack Assad and the various anti-rebel factions in Syria from Russia's grasp.

What are you talking about? it's entirely within their interest. They want central governments in the middle east to get weaker, namely, Iraq, Syria, Turkey so that they can expand Israel easily in future. SDF isn't a threat to them, it's the perfect tool.

They've successfully eliminated Saddam Hussain and greatly weakened Iraq. Through the civil war they also accomplished the same goals in Syria. They don't want a strong Syria or Lebanon. Propping up these communist groups is the easiest way to achieve that. If they could remove Assad, it would be even better but Russia saved him.

US cannot "hijack" assad, it's a preposterous idea.

Jewish-American lobbies and Israel aren't two different things, they are the two heads of the same beast.

Wake up.

 

[Ardabas34]

Jewish-American liberals and Israeli Jews are two different things.

For example, letting the SDF get stronger is against Israeli interests in the long-term. So why is JINSA so interested in it?

Because this is about establishing a stronger US footprint in Syria. Hence the emphasis on keeping Moscow out of the proceedings.

The US wants to hijack Assad and the various anti-rebel factions in Syria from Russia's grasp.

I didnt understand much from this sorry.
1) Why do you think SDF getting stronger is against Israeli interests in the long term?
2) Why would JINSA care about USA establishing a stronger footprint in Syria?

 

[Ryder]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456693062479060999

When we oppose this the Israelis/Jews play the anti semitic card.

 

[Anastasius]

What are you talking about? it's entirely within their interest. They want central governments in the middle east to get weaker, namely, Iraq, Syria, Turkey so that they can expand Israel easily in future. SDF isn't a threat to them, it's the perfect tool.

They've successfully eliminated Saddam Hussain and greatly weakened Iraq. Through the civil war they also accomplished the same goals in Syria. They don't want a strong Syria or Lebanon. Propping up these communist groups is the easiest way to achieve that. If they could remove Assad, it would be even better but Russia saved him.

US cannot "hijack" assad, it's a preposterous idea.

Jewish-American lobbies and Israel aren't two different things, they are the two heads of the same beast.

Wake up.

I didnt understand much from this sorry.
1) Why do you think SDF getting stronger is against Israeli interests in the long term?
2) Why would JINSA care about USA establishing a stronger footprint in Syria?

I confused SDF with Assad's forces proper (though with the current relationship, the lines are really getting blurred).

Syria has been a failure. No matter which way you look at it, USA's primary goal was to have Assad gone and he isn't. ISIS was a miscalculation to destabilize the region that ended up spiraling out of control somewhat but it didn't affect the US itself much. This miscalculation led to Russia gaining a stronger foothold in the Middle-East and worst of all, it led to China gaining a foothold (see a history of Chinese investments in the aftermath of US expeditions in the region and their chaotic withdrawals. The US is seeking to prevent a similar situation in Afghanistan with ISIS-K ravaging the Taliban).

The US doesn't care much about weakening countries if we can simply make them our b***h instead, to put it crudely - see South America and parts of Asia. Same principle applies to Saudi Arabia, for example. Same with Assad - if he cannot be removed, then the US government might consider seeing if they can co-opt him instead. A similar strategy was attempted with Cuba. For Jews, particularly those attached to Israel, it doesn't matter if Syria is still there, as long as it is no longer hostile. And the best way to ensure that an entity in the Middle-East is no longer hostile to Israel is to put them under US influence.

Communist movements, much like Islamist movements, are useful to put pressure on those perceived out of line. Or at least that's what I think used to be the case but a significant shift has happened in American politics towards the left - and with it, some significant changes in American national discourse.

For example, Israel used to be a major point of agreement between both parties - "gotta protect the only democracy in the Middle-East" and all that. However, there has been a major shift towards more hostile rhetoric against Israel nowadays. Even Trump in an interview pointed this out - a decade ago, Israel basically owned Congress. Now they don't. Just look at the Palestinian-Israeli clashes earlier this year and compare the news coverage. Or hell, look at Biden and company trying to repair ties with Iran with the nuclear deal again per Obama's strategy contrary to Israeli Jews screeching about it.

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1459051483614400530

The reality of CAATSA sanctions as a classic.
While the Russians are prodding Europe with gas prices, the Germans are deciding whether to mortgage their future in the hands of the Russians. The Americans sit in the corner and watch the view. A complete caricature scene )

 

[Yasar_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1459051483614400530

The reality of CAATSA sanctions as a classic.
While the Russians are prodding Europe with gas prices, the Germans are deciding whether to mortgage their future in the hands of the Russians. The Americans sit in the corner and watch the view. A complete caricature scene )

Double Standards at it’s best!!

 

[Fighter_35]

nobody cares.

We won't be treated like Germany because we're not Germany.

We have the image of a third-world dictatorship with a failing economy. Not much different than Venezuela.

Exactly, any country other than 3 Rd world shit holes does not care Turkey anymore. We used to be a strong partner of NATO and many countries get approval from us while they sell weapons to Greece. Now we are not even able to buy weapons from them!!
Akp morons can think otherwise but this is the reality. Akp in the last 10 years is the biggest luck that Greeks have . We would dominate the whole region with our defense industry and political support of Israel and usa republicans.but we are in the losing sides everywhere including our economy!!

 

[Ryder]

nobody cares.

We won't be treated like Germany because we're not Germany.

We have the image of a third-world dictatorship with a failing economy. Not much different than Venezuela.

Remember the biggest factor is race and ethnicity.

Why should the USA sanction a Western, European, White and Christian nation?

 

[Huelague]

Exactly, any country other than 3 Rd world shit holes does not care Turkey anymore. We used to be a strong partner of NATO and many countries get approval from us while they sell weapons to Greece. Now we are not even able to buy weapons from them!!
Akp morons can think otherwise but this is the reality. Akp in the last 10 years is the biggest luck that Greeks have . We would dominate the whole region with our defense industry and political support of Israel and usa republicans.but we are in the losing sides everywhere including our economy!!

Yes! Before AKP, USA, Israel and other western countries were our big Friends. Lol

 

[Ryder]

Exactly, any country other than 3 Rd world shit holes does not care Turkey anymore. We used to be a strong partner of NATO and many countries get approval from us while they sell weapons to Greece. Now we are not even able to buy weapons from them!!
Akp morons can think otherwise but this is the reality. Akp in the last 10 years is the biggest luck that Greeks have . We would dominate the whole region with our defense industry and political support of Israel and usa republicans.but we are in the losing sides everywhere including our economy!!

That is the biggest BS i heard in my life.

The West, Europeans or white people in general would never want the Turks to be dominant or the kings of this world. Because they know what happens when Turks become powerful hence why they work day and night to not let that happen they know it and you know it.

They like it when Turks are their puppets.

Also Israel would never tolerate a country in the region that is powerful against them.

We were buddies with Israel due to multiple reasons regarding the geopolitical realities but it has become a reality that Turkey and Israel are at odds due to Turkeys geopolitics of being a regional powerhouse.

Israelis know Turkey is not an Arab country that can easily be controlled or defeated or destroyed. Hence why our F35s got taken away just so Israel can keep their military edge.

You will never be part of their civilisation or their people. Their civilisation is built from Greco-Roman traditions along with Judaeo-Christian traditions.

Look up these traditions you will see who their biggest threat was not just Middle Easterners or the Islamic religion but the Barbarian Nomads like the Turks.

They see us as Barbarians. You cant wipe out centuries of fear and thought.

 

[Bogeyman]

Remember WWI and WWII?

In international relations, image, reputation matters. Russia is as much a white, christian nation as Germany, yet they are hated by the western bloc.

Remove these ideas from your head. You're talking like an SJW. Even supposedly "racist" Third Reich allied itself with non-white, non-christian Japan. It did not matter.

Image matters.

We have the image of a third-world dictatorship with a failing economy.

What you're saying is nonsense.

Because the West does not care about democratic values or the rule of law. You actually say this, but you don't realize it.
Since France today welcomed Sisi, who came to power with the coup, on the red carpet in Paris, it is clear that the issue is only a matter of interest. Even Nicolas Sarkozy did not leave Gaddafi's tail for a while. They were like conjoined twins. He was running his own election campaign with the money he received from Gaddafi.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1452170810731503618

Moreover, we know how that west colonized African countries so that the costs would not rise. Even the 3rd world countries that you are talking about have not been as low as those western states that you admire.

Therefore;
democracy bla bla bla Rule of law bla bla bla
Don't tell us your nonsense here.