Greece Analysis Greek - Turkish Relations

[Akritas]

Libya Issue part 2
History background(2019-2021)

Turkey became significantly more involved in Libya in November 2019, when it signed two momentous agreements with the GNA, which is strongly influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist elements. LNA supported by UAE, Egypt, Russia and France.

Turkey proposed to Libya to disregard the continental shelf of Rhodes, Karpathos, Kasos and Crete, and to take as its opposite coastline for the delimitation that of continental Turkey. Turkey did not limit itself to regions which would only serve Turkish interests.

It proposed to the Libyans to continue the delimitation line to the west, and along the entire length of Crete, thus increasing the area they would control by 39,000 square kilometers.
This is the only map that was implemented, through the Memorandum of Understanding signed between Turkey and the Fayez al-Sarraj government in November 2019.

The plan constituted a gross violation of international law. The attempt to undo the agreements between Cyprus and its neighbor states is a rogue move which undermines the stability of the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean.

Turkey emerges as the international troublemaker. Geographically Turkey does not directly neighbor the greater part of the contested region and has no rights over it. In some cases, it does not even have a coastline facing the claimed area.

On the other hand, the Greek islands in the region are many and are considerable both in size and population. By extension, in accordance with Turkey’s reasoning, Great Britain and Ireland, as islands, should not have continental shelves and EEZs in the Atlantic Ocean. Another analogy would be if France were to seek to sign an agreement with Libya which disregarded Italy, on the premise that Sardinia and Sicily, which lie in between, are islands and therefore have no continental shelf or EEZ

The maps in question run so grossly counter to international law and geography, that their author should have been dismissed as being from another planet.
Turkey secured a bilateral pact ostensibly legitimizing its vast offshore territorial claims( inderrentist Mavi Vatan doctrine) in the increasingly energy-rich Eastern Mediterranean.

What must be done as reagrds the Libya?
two things:

• presidential and parliamentary elections on 24 December 2021
• withdrawal of mercenaries, foreign fighters and foreign forces from the Libyan territory.

More detailing in….. Declaration of the Paris International Conference for Libya | Élysée (elysee.fr)

 

[Kansei]

You deserved everything you got cry me a river now also No one goes to prison for saying "We killed those We genocided those" what kind of propaganda does greek news are feeding you what an Inferior person you are damn.

Once again you dodge the whole point of discussion of did Greeks benefit a lot from the empire vs being independent and go on trying to redirect the argument. Can you a) explain why we deserved it and b) cite the source for you claim about kidnapping children and clarify by what you mean only overseas that you made yesterday ?

 

[Kansei]

Ottomans did not draft you into war or kept you guys into poverty or wiped you guys out like what happened to the native americans.

You guys were allowed to keep your wealth and even your churches. Ottomans even allowed greeks to study abroad.

You guys benefitted a lot from them even more than the Turks themselves.

Thats why the Turkish republic did a good thing in taking control of the economy off your hands back to us.

If did not happen the Turks would be living in poverty while Greeks, Armenians and Jews would be living rich in our own lands.

Yea that's called whataboutism " We didn't draft you into war like with the Americans so you benefited from us except the tax, kidnappings and anal implements"
This the literal equivalent to me conquering your nation, raping your population and saying "Hey at least we don't use gas chambers like the Nazis, so you guys benefited from us"

 

[Ryder]

When one does not cite sources, it means that's arguments are baseless.
Thus, historically and genetically, have been scientifically proven that the Turks carried out the cleansing and Islamization of the local population both in the Balkans and in Asia Minor, in modern terms, ethnic cleansing and genocides.
e.g. Haplogroups J2 and R1b , which is widespread among Mediterranean, Caucasian, and Europe, located up to 25% to the present Turkish population. By contrast, Central Asian haplogroups (C, Q, and O) are rarer.

So, have a nice reading....

Historically.....

Amazon.com

Amazon.com: Daily Life in the Medieval Islamic World (Daily Life Through History): 9780872209343: Lindsay, James E.: Books

Amazon.com: Daily Life in the Medieval Islamic World (Daily Life Through History): 9780872209343: Lindsay, James E.: Books

www.amazon.com

Amazon.com: Women and Slavery in the Late Ottoman Empire: The Design of Difference (Cambridge Studies in Islamic Civilization): 9780521515832: Zilfi, Madeline: Books

Amazon.com: Women and Slavery in the Late Ottoman Empire: The Design of Difference (Cambridge Studies in Islamic Civilization): 9780521515832: Zilfi, Madeline: Books

www.amazon.com

Devshirme and Shari'a | Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies | Cambridge Core

Devshirme and Shari'a - Volume 17 Issue 2

www.cambridge.org

Amazon.com

Genetically.....

DNA diversity and population admixture in Anatolia - PubMed

The Turkic language was introduced in Anatolia at the start of this millennium, by nomadic Turkmen groups from Central Asia. Whether that cultural transition also had significant population-genetics consequences is not fully understood. Three nuclear microsatellite loci, the hypervariable region...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Comparative analyses for the Central Asian contribution to Anatolian gene pool with reference to Balkans

open.metu.edu.tr

Mitochondrial analysis of a Byzantine population reveals the differential impact of multiple historical events in South Anatolia

The archaeological site of Sagalassos is located in Southwest Turkey, in the western part of the Taurus mountain range. Human occupation of its territory is attested from the late 12th millennium BP up to the 13th century AD. By analysing the mtDNA variation ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

How was anatolia hellenised??

With conquests and war.

Anatolia has never been Greek. You guys conquered it and settled it just like us. You Greeks are crying because the Turks were better at it.

Ottoman rule was not all roses and honey. But its hilarious seeing Greeks crying about it when they benefitted from that same empire.

Even with Seljuk and Ottoman conquests of Anatolia. We did not kick hellenism out but we did after the Turkish independance war.

If there is one thing the Greeks have to blame themselves for getting kicked out of Anatolia.

No land shall tolerate treason. You guys laid your bed time to sleep in it.

 

[Ryder]

Libya Issue Part 1
History background(2014-2019)

The current conflict in Libya can be traced to 2014, when a coalition of Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist elements from Misrata violently took over Tripoli after Islamists resoundingly lost the democratic elections.

Following their loss, they proceeded to violently remove the elected parliament of Libya from Tripoli, in an operation known as Fajr Libya (Operation Dawn), forcing it to relocate to Tobruk in the east. Leading the violent coup against the democratically elected parliament was Salah Badi, the same recipient of the Turkish armed vehicle last month and internationally sanctioned as a war criminal for his destruction of the Tripoli airport twice and for the use of Grad missiles against civilians.

The House of Representatives remained in Tobruk since then, as the capital of the country and the Western region became occupied by militias. On March 2015, the elected Libyan parliament and the only internationally recognized parliament of Libya appointed Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar to head the Libyan National Army (LNA) and combat terrorism, militias, and to restore Libyan sovereignty from the ISIS strongholds that established in the country.

Supporting this violent removal of the elected parliament was Turkey and Qatar, which supplied the militias with arms and logistical support and who continue to resist elections, fight the national army to this day and promotes the so called U.N.-recognized Government of National Accord (GNA), that is strongly influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist elements.

Turkey’s Support to Libya’s Outlaw Militias and the Threat to Europe’s Southern Flank

rieas.gr

https://www.idf.il/en/minisites/dado-center/research-1/turkey-s-political-influence-in-libya-and-the-weaponization-of-the-muslim-brotherhood/

Turkey leans towards militants in Libya as ties with Muslim Brotherhood erode | Mona El-Mahrouki | AW

Ankara is increasingly angry at the Libyan Muslim Brotherhood, especially in light of what appears to be the UN mission’s proposal to appoint Aguila Saleh, current Speaker of the Libyan Parliament, as head of the new presidential council, and the minister of interior of the Government of...

thearabweekly.com

Turkey's Escalation in Libya: Implications and U.S. Policy Options - JINSA

Turkey’s recent intervention in Libya’s civil war has intensified the involvement of rival foreign powers in the strategically situated, energy-rich country, and threatens vital U.S. interests in the region, even as Washington mostly observes from the sidelines. Ankara became significantly… Read...

jinsa.org

Libya Dawn / fajr Libya

Libyan National Army

www.globalsecurity.org

You lose all arguments when you back a violent warlord like Haftar and try to make him look legit.

Didnt you Greeks beat your chests like gorillas on how you were going to prevent the Turks from going to Libya.

By the way most Libyans hate Greece. You guys have no business in Libya while us Turks have been there for centuries and even have some Libyans talking about Enver Pasha. Enver Pasha has become a legend there according to Omar Mukhtar's son.

 

[Melkor]

Turkey does not sign UNCLOS because it will give Greece the vast majority of the Aegean due to a bunch of islands that when combined create a land mass around the size of Cannakale Province. Greece cannot show UNCLOS (and its default into customary law for non-signatories) as being applied to a similar geography and dispute anywhere else in the world hence Turkey’s rejection of the customary law argument. The application of UNCLOS to the Aegean matter is inequitable and down right theivery - robbing millions living on the Turkish coast and rewarding relevantly sparsely populated islands.

Greece’s justification for militarized islands due to Turkish actions on Cyprus is a weak deflection - Turkey responded to Hellenic atrocities against it’s kin

Greece’s argument for militarized islands due to Turkish military buildup on its coast is nonsensical - how far inland would Greece be happy with?

Rustu Aras’ speech was about good neighborly relations/good intentions. Maybe Greece should actually properly interpret all of what he said. By no means - and certainly not in a legally Binding way - did he forfeit Turkey’s position on keeping the islands demilitarized.

There is also the view by Turkey that the Italians didn’t have the right to transfer the islands to Greece in the first place because they were to be under Italian stewardship only until the ending of the Balkan war, except the Italians held on to them, being enabled by the onset of ww1.

 

[Ryder]

Turkey does not sign UNCLOS because it will give Greece the vast majority of the Aegean due to a bunch of islands that when combined create a land mass around the size of Cannakale Province. Greece cannot show UNCLOS (and its default into customary law for non-signatories) as being applied to a similar geography and dispute anywhere else in the world hence Turkey’s rejection of the customary law argument. The application of UNCLOS to the Aegean matter is inequitable and down right theivery - robbing millions living on the Turkish coast and rewarding relevantly sparsely populated islands.

Greece’s justification for militarized islands due to Turkish actions on Cyprus is a weak deflection - Turkey responded to Hellenic atrocities against it’s kin

Greece’s argument for militarized islands due to Turkish military buildup on its coast is nonsensical - how far inland would Greece be happy with?

Rustu Aras’ speech was about good neighborly relations/good intentions. Maybe Greece should actually properly interpret all of what he said. By no means - and certainly not in a legally Binding way - did he forfeit Turkey’s position on keeping the islands demilitarized.

There is also the view by Turkey that the Italians didn’t have the right to transfer the islands to Greece in the first place because they were to be under Italian stewardship only until the ending of the Balkan war, except the Italians held on to them, being enabled by the onset of ww1.

Italians were suppose to return the Dodocanese Islands after the Italian invasion of Libya due to the Balkan Wars the Italians gave some bs excuse to keep the islands. Due to Italy losing ww2 the islands were given to Greece due to them being part of the Allies winning ww2.

 

[Akritas]

There is also the view by Turkey that the Italians didn’t have the right to transfer the islands to Greece in the first place because they were to be under Italian stewardship only until the ending of the Balkan war, except the Italians held on to them, being enabled by the onset of ww1.

For the previous(UNCLOS, demilitarization, e.tc.) I had deposit my arguments.
As about the Dodekanese Islands, is a new issue that promoted from the authoritarian Erdogan regime in the last 2 years.
Some historical facts:

1. On the basis of the Lausanne Treaty (Article 15) , the Dodecanese islands in their entirety, were given to Italy. According to Articles 12 to 16 it is apparent that Turkey ceded all sovereign rights over all the islands lying more than 3 miles off the Asiatic coast, apart from the Imbros, Tenedos and Rabbit islands.
2. With the January 1932 treaty and the supplementary procès-verbal of December 1932, a delimitation line was drawn between Turkey and Italy, to which the Dodecanese belonged at the time, clearly distinguishing the islands of each country. The delimitation line followed the provision of the Treaty of Lausanne as to Turkey renouncing the rights to islands located more than three miles from its coast. So the"Balkan war" is out of the box.
3. The Italian-Turkish treaty was registered with the League of Nations in 1933. Both Italy and Turkey
   considered themselves as being bound by it, as is revealed by the correspondence between the two states.
4. Through the Paris Peace Treaties of 1947, Greece became the sole successor of Italy in the Dodecanese and, consequently, assumed the rights and obligations of Italy with regard to the Italian-Turkish treaty and procèsverbal of 1932.
5. The December 1932 procès-verbal was respected by Turkey from 1932 to 1947, when the Dodecanese were Italian, and from 1947 onwards, when they were Greek.
6. The Paris Peace Treaties of 1947 was respected by Turkey from 1947 to 1996, when the Dodecanese were It were Greek.
7. Finally(but not last) Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (1969) stipulates, “A fundamental change of circumstances may not be invoked as a ground for terminating or withdrawing from a treaty […] if the treaty establishes a boundary.”

Greek counter arguments are solid, clear, under the international law, Treauties and UN rules.
On the other hand, every month Turkey invents a new issue with the obvious aim of not getting into the essence of a meaningful dialogue. As is clear from some Turkish members of this forum only with war will the Greek-Turkish issues end.

 

[Akritas]

Some Greeks argue that as long as Turkey discovers and invents issues, Greece should do the same.
What are these;

1. Demarcation of continental shelf and EEZ according to UNCLOS and / or the International Courts
2. Demilitarization of the Ionian region. That mean no naval , military and airforce bases and troops
3. “Gray Areas” theory at the Turkish islands of Aegan Sea, entrance to the Dardanelles Strait and Sea of Marmara.
4. Compensations to be paid by Turkey to Greeks for properties and atrocities in Constantinople(pogrom 1955).
5. Prosecution in International Courts of Turks (politicians, civil servants, citizens) who incite but also participate in illegal immigration flows and push forwars tactics. There many videos,statements and reports for that.
6. Return to Turkey, without conditions and restrictions of those illegal immigrants arrested in Greece and proven to have entered from Turkey.
7. Implementation of Article 14 of the Treaty of Lausanne in Imbros and Tenedos, ie a regime of autonomy with the return of the expelled Greeks, restoration of their property by the Turkish state and the departure of the settlers.
8. Full recognition of the Greek and Byzantine cultural heritage (monuments, churches and archeological sites).

In the end, as one looks to the future of Greek-Turkish relations, the advice of the American President Theodore
Roosevelt (1901-1908) seems particularly apt: “Speak softly and carry a big stick."

 

[Manomed]

We live rent free in the head of this guy

 

[Oublious]

Yes sure: massacres, mass murders, slavery, land tax and trade tax only for Christians, childs gathering, force islamization, refugees..... a complete Ottoman genocide!!!
Are all this learned in your official history or whoever dares to say them, is imprisoned as a terrorist ?

yeah thats why ther live still christians, look what you people did in Africa, Asia, Sout American and North America. Stop with your stories

Some Greeks argue that as long as Turkey discovers and invents issues, Greece should do the same.
What are these;

1. Demarcation of continental shelf and EEZ according to UNCLOS and / or the International Courts
2. Demilitarization of the Ionian region. That mean no naval , military and airforce bases and troops
3. “Gray Areas” theory at the Turkish islands of Aegan Sea, entrance to the Dardanelles Strait and Sea of Marmara.
4. Compensations to be paid by Turkey to Greeks for properties and atrocities in Constantinople(pogrom 1955).
5. Prosecution in International Courts of Turks (politicians, civil servants, citizens) who incite but also participate in illegal immigration flows and push forwars tactics. There many videos,statements and reports for that.
6. Return to Turkey, without conditions and restrictions of those illegal immigrants arrested in Greece and proven to have entered from Turkey.
7. Implementation of Article 14 of the Treaty of Lausanne in Imbros and Tenedos, ie a regime of autonomy with the return of the expelled Greeks, restoration of their property by the Turkish state and the departure of the settlers.
8. Full recognition of the Greek and Byzantine cultural heritage (monuments, churches and archeological sites).

In the end, as one looks to the future of Greek-Turkish relations, the advice of the American President Theodore
Roosevelt (1901-1908) seems particularly apt: “Speak softly and carry a big stick."

lol....


in the end we should force you people, thats the end of the tunnel. Maximalist people....

Look to the people, they don't want to bend but want us to accept every term what they claim. Thats why we will never come over the isseu, the end of the story will be war.

The only thing that hold back them is we are stronger.

 

[Huelague]

Libya Issue Part 1
History background(2014-2019)

The current conflict in Libya can be traced to 2014, when a coalition of Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist elements from Misrata violently took over Tripoli after Islamists resoundingly lost the democratic elections.

Following their loss, they proceeded to violently remove the elected parliament of Libya from Tripoli, in an operation known as Fajr Libya (Operation Dawn), forcing it to relocate to Tobruk in the east. Leading the violent coup against the democratically elected parliament was Salah Badi, the same recipient of the Turkish armed vehicle last month and internationally sanctioned as a war criminal for his destruction of the Tripoli airport twice and for the use of Grad missiles against civilians.

The House of Representatives remained in Tobruk since then, as the capital of the country and the Western region became occupied by militias. On March 2015, the elected Libyan parliament and the only internationally recognized parliament of Libya appointed Field Marshal Khalifa Haftar to head the Libyan National Army (LNA) and combat terrorism, militias, and to restore Libyan sovereignty from the ISIS strongholds that established in the country.

Supporting this violent removal of the elected parliament was Turkey and Qatar, which supplied the militias with arms and logistical support and who continue to resist elections, fight the national army to this day and promotes the so called U.N.-recognized Government of National Accord (GNA), that is strongly influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist elements.

Turkey’s Support to Libya’s Outlaw Militias and the Threat to Europe’s Southern Flank

rieas.gr

https://www.idf.il/en/minisites/dado-center/research-1/turkey-s-political-influence-in-libya-and-the-weaponization-of-the-muslim-brotherhood/

Turkey leans towards militants in Libya as ties with Muslim Brotherhood erode | Mona El-Mahrouki | AW

Ankara is increasingly angry at the Libyan Muslim Brotherhood, especially in light of what appears to be the UN mission’s proposal to appoint Aguila Saleh, current Speaker of the Libyan Parliament, as head of the new presidential council, and the minister of interior of the Government of...

thearabweekly.com

Turkey's Escalation in Libya: Implications and U.S. Policy Options - JINSA

Turkey’s recent intervention in Libya’s civil war has intensified the involvement of rival foreign powers in the strategically situated, energy-rich country, and threatens vital U.S. interests in the region, even as Washington mostly observes from the sidelines. Ankara became significantly… Read...

jinsa.org

Libya Dawn / fajr Libya

Libyan National Army

www.globalsecurity.org

What about criminal invasion by France.

 

[Huelague]

@Akritas , you are from WAFF?

 

[Akritas]

@Akritas , you are from WAFF?

Nope!!!

 

[Akritas]

Is there a threat to the Greek islands from Turkey?
Yes there is, and the example of Cyprus is not the only one.
The Amphibious Marine Brigade (Amfibi Deniz Piyade Tugayı), also known as Amphibious Commando ( Amfibi Komando), is the marine corps unit of the Turkish Naval Forces based in Phocaea near Smyrna , facing Lesvos island, where they exist three amphibious battalions, an MBT battalion, an artillery battalion, a support battalion and other company-sized units.
Has been founded in 1966!!!!
At the base we could clearly see at least 35 landing craft.
Which we imagine are not going to land in Indonesia, Australia, Syria, France etc.
The Turkish military threat is real, what is threatened is not demilitarized.

Sources.....

Για πρώτη φορά στη δημοσιότητα: Εικόνες από την βάση της Φώκαιας Τουρκίας

Παράπονα Ρόδου, εδώ γράφουν οι αναγνώστες

parapona-rodou.blogspot.com

Φωτογραφίες από την βάση των Πεζοναυτών στην Φώκαια της Τουρκίας !

Κείμενο του ιστολόγιου 20/11/2020 Με έκπληξη είδαμε πως η βάση των πεζοναυτών στην Φώκαια (απέναντι στην Λέσβο) της Τουρκίας στο Google δεν είναι καλυμμένη με πλέγμα αλλά διακρίνονται πολλά πράγματα καθαρά . Έτσι σας παρουσιάζουμε μερικά στοιχεία της βάσης. Στην βάση διακρίναμε καθαρά τουλάχιστον 1

tourkikanea.gr

 

[Oublious]

Is there a threat to the Greek islands from Turkey?
Yes there is, and the example of Cyprus is not the only one.
The Amphibious Marine Brigade (Amfibi Deniz Piyade Tugayı), also known as Amphibious Commando ( Amfibi Komando), is the marine corps unit of the Turkish Naval Forces based in Phocaea near Smyrna , facing Lesvos island, where they exist three amphibious battalions, an MBT battalion, an artillery battalion, a support battalion and other company-sized units.
Has been founded in 1966!!!!
At the base we could clearly see at least 35 landing craft.
Which we imagine are not going to land in Indonesia, Australia, Syria, France etc.
The Turkish military threat is real, what is threatened is not demilitarized.

View attachment 36767

View attachment 36768

View attachment 36769

View attachment 36770

Sources.....

Για πρώτη φορά στη δημοσιότητα: Εικόνες από την βάση της Φώκαιας Τουρκίας

Παράπονα Ρόδου, εδώ γράφουν οι αναγνώστες

parapona-rodou.blogspot.com

Φωτογραφίες από την βάση των Πεζοναυτών στην Φώκαια της Τουρκίας !

Κείμενο του ιστολόγιου 20/11/2020 Με έκπληξη είδαμε πως η βάση των πεζοναυτών στην Φώκαια (απέναντι στην Λέσβο) της Τουρκίας στο Google δεν είναι καλυμμένη με πλέγμα αλλά διακρίνονται πολλά πράγματα καθαρά . Έτσι σας παρουσιάζουμε μερικά στοιχεία της βάσης. Στην βάση διακρίναμε καθαρά τουλάχιστον 1

tourkikanea.gr

BS, these are in the main land. It will not change if we put it to other places.

lol

 

[Akritas]

Greek PM urges Turkey to end provocations​

Turkey must end its provocations in the Aegean and the East Mediterranean, including lifting its “outrageous” casus belli (cause of war) against Greece, if it wants to normalize bilateral ties and relations with the European Union, Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said Monday.


Speaking during a joint press conference with his newly-elected Bulagrian counterpart Kiril Petkov in Sofia, Mitsotakis made clear that Greece is keen to see progress in relations between Turkey and the 27-member bloc, “as we will be the first to benefit [from such a development].”

Asked about the challenges facing the two Balkan countries as a result of pressure from immigration, Mitsotakis emphasized that the external borders of Greece and Bulgaria are also European borders.

“Both countries are protecting [these borders] effectively, with respect to human rights,” he said.

Greek PM urges Turkey to end provocations | eKathimerini.com

Turkey must end its provocations in the Aegean and the East Mediterranean, including lifting its “outrageous” casus belli (cause of war) against Greece, if it wants to normalize bilateral ties and relations with the European Union, Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said Monday.

www.ekathimerini.com

 

[Manomed]

Funny picture I know

Looks like greeks are training Drone targets for us Turks

seeing 3 flags makes me laugh because of history

@Ryder

Just a warning for Greece training armenians won't do good for ya they are terrible fighters

 

[Ryder]

View attachment 37479
Funny picture I know

Looks like greeks are training Drone targets for us Turks

seeing 3 flags makes me laugh because of history

@Ryder

Just a warning for Greece training armenians won't do good for ya they are terrible fighters

3 of them signed agreements in trying to contain us

Now we are in the Eastern Med, Karabag, Iraq, Syria and Libya. Now we are going to Central Asia.

Greeks and Armenians cant do anything unless another Power comes to their aid like the USA, France, Uk or Russia.

 

[Akritas]

View attachment 37479
Funny picture I know

Looks like greeks are training Drone targets for us Turks

seeing 3 flags makes me laugh because of history

@Ryder

Just a warning for Greece training armenians won't do good for ya they are terrible fighters

This is off topic.