TR Defence Exports & Updates

[TheInsider]

If PT6 is solely a civilian engine and not a dual use engine (both military and civilian) , it is even worse.
The International law prohibits trading of civilian parts for military use.
PT6-A turboprop engine is actually a dual use engine. It is used for civilian aircraft as well as military. (C12 Huron and T6-Texan2 trainer are good examples)
But the question of Canadian government’s consent to 3rd part users still hangs over the use of this engine in Akinci.

You can just buy PT-6 of the shelf just like Rotax engines. If you have money i can buy you a PT6 tomorrow. It will be similar to Austrian embargo on Rotax engine for TB2. Can it be done? Sure. If Canada really wants to do this it can go to such lengths. Is it likely? No. The chances are very slim for that to happen. IMHO the worst thing that will happen is an embargo on paper while we still have healthy PT6 procurement channels.

 

[Yasar_TR]

You can just buy PT-6 of the shelf just like Rotax engines. If you have money i can buy you a PT6 tomorrow. It will be similar to Austrian embargo on Rotax engine for TB2. Can it be done? Sure. If Canada really wants to do this it can go to such lengths. Is it likely? No. The chances are very slim for that to happen. IMHO the worst thing that will happen is an embargo on paper while we still have healthy PT6 procurement channels.

We were buying Rotax and TB2 parts until some dickheads warned the related countries and we were faced with embargoes. What seems not possible today may become possible tomorrow.
But if you read the post of @Nilgiri above, you will find that Canada is no longer the decision making party on P&W engines. But it is the US. So it is up to US to decide whether to allow sales to 3rd party buyers or not.

 

[Nilgiri]

We were buying Rotax and TB2 parts until some dickheads warned the related countries and we were faced with embargoes. What seems not possible today may become possible tomorrow.
But if you read the post of @Nilgiri above, you will find that Canada is no longer the decision making party on P&W engines. But it is the US. So it is up to US to decide whether to allow sales to 3rd party buyers or not.

Digging around purely on Canadian legislation side, there have been some advocacy groups looking for tighter canada export controls and implementation..... and the issue brought up by them was bush plane and military aircraft use (that use PT-6 powerplant, new, old and their spares) in various ongoing conflicts in Africa.

It doesn't look like it has led to anything concrete I can see.

PT-6 proliferation is not seen (by Canada's establishment) as any significant concern to Canada's human rights interests in its dual use ability etc....since it would set up lot of other precedent on other items to intervene and likely then make Canada far less competitive in this sector.

It is very different to the what/how/why stuff for TB2 sensor (Canadian govt sanction during karabakh war) as many members I suppose already know the story on that one.

The executive intervention for PWC is more or less fully done by the US establishment.

If that arises (I find it unlikely, but it could potentially happen)....., it will be client specific like with the ATAK helicopter issue (Philippines vis a vis Pakistan).

 

[Ravenman]

Very good article from Amir Husein about the 700 projects of the Turkish Armed Forces.

Turkey Builds A Hyperwar Capable Military

The sheer range of engagements Turkey has sustained is impressive, and the results produced deserve attention.

www.forbes.com

 

[Yasar_TR]

Very good article from Amir Husein about the 700 projects of the Turkish Armed Forces.

Turkey Builds A Hyperwar Capable Military

The sheer range of engagements Turkey has sustained is impressive, and the results produced deserve attention.

www.forbes.com

Nice article. With the exception of “Gokbey attack helicopter” he got everything right. Gives a very good insight in to TSK’s development work.

 

[Agha Sher]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1542767677453770752

Aselsan export contract worth $14m to an APAC country

 

[Tornadoss]

Sedef Shipyard sells floating dry dock to Austal USA

Austal USA on Monday revealed it has ordered a new dry dock that it said will become the centerpiece of its new repair facility in San Diego.

Construction on the dry dock began Monday at Sedef Shipyard in Turkey, and the completed vessel is scheduled to be fully operational in Austal’s new West Coast yard by August 2023.

The dry dock will have a 9,000 light ton lifting capacity. It will be 531 feet (162 meters) long, 154 feet (47 meters) wide, with a maximum draft of 36 feet (11 meters).

“This dry dock will greatly enhance Austal’s ability to provide the Navy and other customers a highly capable full-service repair facility located in the homeport of San Diego,” Austal USA President Rusty Murdaugh said. “It will be invaluable to our customers, and we are eager to satisfy their growing demand for West coast repair facilities that include dry docks.”

Austal USA Orders Dry Dock for New West Coast Yard

Austal USA on Monday revealed it has ordered a new dry dock that it said will become the centerpiece of its new repair facility in…

www.marinelink.com

 

[Rodeo]

Sedef Shipyard sells floating dry dock to Austal USA

Austal USA on Monday revealed it has ordered a new dry dock that it said will become the centerpiece of its new repair facility in San Diego.

Construction on the dry dock began Monday at Sedef Shipyard in Turkey, and the completed vessel is scheduled to be fully operational in Austal’s new West Coast yard by August 2023.

The dry dock will have a 9,000 light ton lifting capacity. It will be 531 feet (162 meters) long, 154 feet (47 meters) wide, with a maximum draft of 36 feet (11 meters).

“This dry dock will greatly enhance Austal’s ability to provide the Navy and other customers a highly capable full-service repair facility located in the homeport of San Diego,” Austal USA President Rusty Murdaugh said. “It will be invaluable to our customers, and we are eager to satisfy their growing demand for West coast repair facilities that include dry docks.”

Austal USA Orders Dry Dock for New West Coast Yard

Austal USA on Monday revealed it has ordered a new dry dock that it said will become the centerpiece of its new repair facility in…

www.marinelink.com

How will they transport the dry-dock to the US? It's huge.

 

[Tornadoss]

How will they transport the dry-dock to the US? It's huge.

Maybe with some heavy lifting vessel.
Maybe @Anmdt has better knowledge about how such things are transported.

 

[Ravenman]

We should be very, very proud with our defence industry and Armed forces. Their massive project and creative brains are really gamechangers.

Investing and sponsoring our defence industry is the highest task of every Turkish citizen. Every politician or party or adminstration who cuts off or minimize the investments in our militairy industrial complex needs to be stopped with force.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

We should be very, very proud with our defence industry and Armed forces. Their massive project and creative brains are really gamechangers.

Investing and sponsoring our defence industry is the highest task of every Turkish citizen. Every politician or party or adminstration who cuts off or minimize the investments in our militairy industrial complex needs to be stopped with force.

Be aware of the achievment, and all the pressure of the world on turkey. Be proud of your achievment, but always aim
Higher. Better times to come, hope we can be still part of the forum when all the major projects are intact! Haydeeeeee turkiyeeeee!

 

[Anmdt]

Maybe with some heavy lifting vessel.
Maybe @Anmdt has better knowledge about how such things are transported.

How will they transport the dry-dock to the US? It's huge.

That one is going to be expensive for a floating dry dock (possibly), they might use some tugboats as well.

 

[TheInsider]

We were buying Rotax and TB2 parts until some dickheads warned the related countries and we were faced with embargoes. What seems not possible today may become possible tomorrow.
But if you read the post of @Nilgiri above, you will find that Canada is no longer the decision making party on P&W engines. But it is the US. So it is up to US to decide whether to allow sales to 3rd party buyers or not.

Note that even though Austria put an embargo on Turkiye for Rotax engines it couldn't manage to enforce it in practical terms due to the nature of the product. Baykar continued producing TB2s with Rotax engines. Procured those engines via the open market. The issue with PT6 if it ever happens will be very similar to the Rotax issue.

 

[what]

That one is going to be expensive for a floating dry dock (possibly), they might use some tugboats as well.

San Diego is on the west coast of the US, thats going to be a long ass journey. Nevertheless, good for them to get the contract.

 

[Nilgiri]

Note that even though Austria put an embargo on Turkiye for Rotax engines it couldn't manage to enforce it in practical terms due to the nature of the product. Baykar continued producing TB2s with Rotax engines. Procured those engines via the open market. The issue with PT6 if it ever happens will be very similar to the Rotax issue.

US is completely different country to Austria in size, power and reach.

If US state department decides there is an ITAR violation w.r.t an end user (for a technology under its executive ambit), it will sanction any and all MRO networks providing PT-6 turbine parts to said countries involved for example.

No PT-6 MRO company will forego the entire western market to do this....even for a market as large as say Russia's (openly proven recently) or even China's in majority of cases.

If US state dept wants to stop PT-6 to Pakistan, it simply will as it has left quite a lot of room for itself to do so in the ITAR provisions:

GovInfo

Official Publications from the U.S. Government Publishing Office.

www.govinfo.gov

Especially page 498 (and the earlier references to what UAVs are covered):

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2017-title22-vol1/pdf/CFR-2017-title22-vol1-sec121-1.pdf

What makes it unlikely (for "worst case for client" argument sake) is the stacking of pro and con for US state dept doing do vis a vis what it specifically denies and for how long (relative to what can be met by say Chinese ecosystem or other alternatives)....i.e is it worth commiting the resource and political capital for this relative to the technology (PT-6 in a UAV).

Likely not.....whereas it was deemed worth it to do so (given the precise engine capability and IP in question that the Chinese are specifically after these days) for ATAK helicopter.

 

[Zafer]

Panama Canal has a certain width. There was enlargement work going on.

 

[Yasar_TR]

How will they transport the dry-dock to the US? It's huge.

What Sedef is producing is a ”Floating Dry Dock”.
A floating dry dock is usually built using steel framing which is similar to that of seagoing vessels with ballast tanks provided on sides and bottom to raise and lower the dock.

Quote:

Advantages of Dry Docks:

1. They can be propelled to the location of a salvage vessel near the harbour
2. They are cheaper to maintain as compared to graving docks and can get a higher resalable return
3. They can be installed near or away from the shore inside the harbour, making them a portable and space-saving structure without taking space of the shore facility
4. The complete floating dry dock can be aft or forward trim by ballasting the dock, which further assists the ship or the damaged vessel which cannot be given a trim
5. Additional mooring equipment is needed for the floating dry dock to make it stable
6. The floating dry dock can be altered and increases in size in all dimensions by extensive retrofitting/ rebuilding
7. They can also be split into two different floating docks independent of each other

Unquote.

A floating dock can have self propulsion as well as being carried to it’s position on tow. So this Dock will either be towed to it’s final destination or travel there under it’s own power. Or if it can be split in to two or more sections it can be carried by a vessel to it’s final destination.
Or be carried as a whole with a large enough vessel to accommodate it.

 

[TR_123456]

What Sedef is producing is a ”Floating Dry Dock”.
A floating dry dock is usually built using steel framing which is similar to that of seagoing vessels with ballast tanks provided on sides and bottom to raise and lower the dock.

Quote:

Advantages of Dry Docks:

1. They can be propelled to the location of a salvage vessel near the harbour
2. They are cheaper to maintain as compared to graving docks and can get a higher resalable return
3. They can be installed near or away from the shore inside the harbour, making them a portable and space-saving structure without taking space of the shore facility
4. The complete floating dry dock can be aft or forward trim by ballasting the dock, which further assists the ship or the damaged vessel which cannot be given a trim
5. Additional mooring equipment is needed for the floating dry dock to make it stable
6. The floating dry dock can be altered and increases in size in all dimensions by extensive retrofitting/ rebuilding
7. They can also be split into two different floating docks independent of each other

Unquote.

A floating dock can have self propulsion as well as being carried to it’s position on tow. So this Dock will either be towed to it’s final destination or travel there under it’s own power. Or if it can be split in to two or more sections it can be carried by a vessel to it’s final destination.
Or be carried as a whole with a large enough vessel to accommodate it.

View attachment 45690

Probably with such a ship for crossing the Atlantic.

 

[neosinan]

In any case, Selling such expensive Military equipment to US is unheard for our industry. Hopefully, We will sell them even more expensive gear with even bigger profit margins.

 

[Stuka]

Some Info about the TB-2 Procurement by Ukraine.

Since 2019
> 24 TB-2 Delivered

Since 02/2022
> 50 Delivered

Which means around 74 Total Delivered.

Ukrainian MoD had posted on Facebook that the next batch will arrive in July 2022 and that their order is so large, Baykar will be producing just for them.
I was curious about how many exactly and I think their UKR MoD Donation Page is hinting at the targeted number of TB-2s.

These are the drones you’re looking for: Join Mark Hamill and the Army of Drones

In order to strengthen and protect Ukrainian lives, the legend, Mark Hamill, is raising funds towards 10 RQ-35 Heidrun reconnaissance drones.

u24.gov.ua

The Target is 200 Tactical UAVs. TB-2s.

The Current Order from Ukraine is 126 TB-2s from Baykar.

I Previously Calculated that Baykar can produce 180 TB2s/Year

Some Observations.

13.11.2021 during a visit.
- TB2 with the Serial No. T220 has been seen

View attachment 40893

Now 12.03.2022 (4 Months Later) during MIUS reveal
- TB2 with the Serial No. T278 and (T279) can be seen.

View attachment 40894

If we calculate ca. 280 TB2s minus the 220 TB2s from previous Picture than we have approx. 60 TB2s in 4 Months.

15 TB2s/Month > 180 TB2s/Year

These numbers are staggering and without an additional Factory as well, which might also explain the lack of space in these Pictures.

That would be 50 after the start of War and 126 on Order equals 176 TB2 which almost the max capacity of Baykar which means the Ukr MoD wasn't overexaggerating.

If Baykar manages to Deliver all 176 TB-2s this year that would be an Export of around 1 Billions USD.