TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

TR_123456

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
5,092
Reactions
12,694
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
@Bogeyman

Regarding the stockpile of Turkish missiles, I refuse to believe that we don't have Pakistani missiles and rockets in our arsenal. It simply doesn't make any sense if you consider the deep-rooted, secretive and strategic nature of the relationship between the two states.

My guess is that we have a very high amount of unrevealed Pakistani origin missiles in our inventory.
Why would we have Pakistani origin missiles,for what reason?
 

Kedikesenfare

Well-known member
Messages
330
Reactions
1 797
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
Why would we have Pakistani origin

Pakistinian_Missiles_2021-scaled.jpg


Why? The question should rather be why not?
 

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
3,251
Reactions
141 16,309
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
If you add dual pulse on current weight it would become more heavier. thus, unlikely to acheive 100km effective range with current acceleration power.
Let us learn what Dual Pulse and Dual Thrust are first:

Dual Pulse : Engine uses half of fuel at launch and until it reaches coasting speed. Then at terminal phase it uses second part of fuel to give itself more kinetic energy so as to not give any chance for target to evade.
Dual Thrust : Fuel tank contains a mixture of two different types of fuel with two different combustibility parameters. One type burns quick and gives initial boost speed. The second type burns slowly and sustains speed longer than normal solid fuelled missiles.

In both cases it doesn’t effect the weight of the missile in any adverse way.
 

Afif

Experienced member
Moderator
Bangladesh Correspondent
DefenceHub Diplomat
Bangladesh Moderator
Messages
4,755
Reactions
94 9,094
Nation of residence
Bangladesh
Nation of origin
Bangladesh
Let us learn what Dual Pulse and Dual Thrust are first:

Dual Pulse : Engine uses half of fuel at launch and until it reaches coasting speed. Then at terminal phase it uses second part of fuel to give itself more kinetic energy so as to not give any chance for target to evade.
Dual Thrust : Fuel tank contains a mixture of two different types of fuel with two different combustibility parameters. One type burns quick and gives initial boost speed. The second type burns slowly and sustains speed longer than normal solid fuelled missiles.

In both cases it doesn’t effect the weight of the missile in any adverse way.
Thanks,
But I was just objecting to his idea of Bozdoğan ( not gokdogan ) reaching 100km effective range with just an additional dual pulse and RF seeker.
 

Gary

Experienced member
Messages
8,361
Reactions
22 12,853
Nation of residence
Indonesia
Nation of origin
Indonesia
What is the production capacity of Turkish missile industry ? Last year I read around 600+ SOM had been delivered to the TAF. But no mention on when the production run start.
I finally found it. Turkish SOM orders are at 495 total.


We have 98 slam er (source: sipri) and some popeye 1s. For popeyes there are different numbers in open sources (100, 196, few hundreds etc). But their delivery was between 1997-2002, they should have had a modernisation (thermal battery and fuel). If this is the case their shell life will be exhausted in 2022-2027 or 2027-2032 at most. Some of them have been used in operations against pkk and pyd/ypg in ıraq and syria. And they can only be used by phantoms as far as I know.
quite low tbh, Turkiye needs to ramp up production especially when your neighbors are missile powerhouse like Russia and Iran. Although from the look of it, Turkish proliferation of air delivered smart bombs are a lot larger than both Russia and Iran.
 

TheInsider

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
4,066
Solutions
1
Reactions
34 14,482
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Thanks,
But I was just objecting to his idea of Bozdoğan ( not gokdogan ) reaching 100km effective range with just an additional dual pulse and RF seeker.
You can object all you want. That doesn't change the fact that it is both possible and plausible. I-Derby Er is basically a modified Python-5 with an RF seeker and a dual-pulse rocket engine.

Python-5

  • Length: 310 cm (120 in)
  • Span: 64 cm (25 in)
  • Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
  • Weight: 105 kg (231 lb)
  • Guidance: IR + electro-optical imaging
  • Warhead: 11 kg (24 lb)
  • Range: > 20 km (12 mi)
  • Speed: Mach 4
Derby

  • Length: 362 cm (143 in)
  • Span: 64 cm (25 in)
  • Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
  • Weight: 118 kg (260 lb)
  • Guidance: Active Radar
  • Warhead: 23 kg (51 lb)
  • Range: 50 km (31 mi)
  • Speed: Mach 4
I-Derby ER

  • Length: 362 cm (143 in)
  • Span: 64 cm (25 in)
  • Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
  • Weight: 122 kg (260 lb)
  • Guidance: Active Radar
  • Warhead: 23 kg (51 lb)
  • Range: 100 km (62 mi)
  • Speed: Mach 4
 

Slayer

Active member
Messages
143
Reactions
2 274
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
I finally found it. Turkish SOM orders are at 495 total.



quite low tbh, Turkiye needs to ramp up production especially when your neighbors are missile powerhouse like Russia and Iran. Although from the look of it, Turkish proliferation of air delivered smart bombs are a lot larger than both Russia and Iran.
It's about quality and not quantity.
 

Afif

Experienced member
Moderator
Bangladesh Correspondent
DefenceHub Diplomat
Bangladesh Moderator
Messages
4,755
Reactions
94 9,094
Nation of residence
Bangladesh
Nation of origin
Bangladesh
You can object all you want. That doesn't change the fact that it is both possible and plausible. I-Derby Er is basically a modified Python-5 with an RF seeker and a dual-pulse rocket engine.

Python-5

  • Length: 310 cm (120 in)
  • Span: 64 cm (25 in)
  • Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
  • Weight: 105 kg (231 lb)
  • Guidance: IR + electro-optical imaging
  • Warhead: 11 kg (24 lb)
  • Range: > 20 km (12 mi)
  • Speed: Mach 4
Derby

  • Length: 362 cm (143 in)
  • Span: 64 cm (25 in)
  • Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
  • Weight: 118 kg (260 lb)
  • Guidance: Active Radar
  • Warhead: 23 kg (51 lb)
  • Range: 50 km (31 mi)
  • Speed: Mach 4
I-Derby ER

  • Length: 362 cm (143 in)
  • Span: 64 cm (25 in)
  • Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
  • Weight: 122 kg (260 lb)
  • Guidance: Active Radar
  • Warhead: 23 kg (51 lb)
  • Range: 100 km (62 mi)
  • Speed: Mach 4
OK, let's ask for some other valuable opinions.
@Yasar, @dBSPL and others.
 

Oublious

Experienced member
The Netherlands Correspondent
Messages
2,165
Reactions
8 4,680
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
I finally found it. Turkish SOM orders are at 495 total.



quite low tbh, Turkiye needs to ramp up production especially when your neighbors are missile powerhouse like Russia and Iran. Although from the look of it, Turkish proliferation of air delivered smart bombs are a lot larger than both Russia and Iran.


Thats missile for the Airforce, Kara Atmaca will be for the land force with range of 500km.

 

Osman

Committed member
Messages
270
Reactions
6 527
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
I suppose, following the completion of the second order of 415 missiles, ther will be additional order for som, especially its new variants.
 

Trakya_forever

Committed member
Messages
218
Reactions
4 591
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Som A was delivered in 2011 and first SOM B1 in 2012. 80 orders belongs to last batch of SOM B1 and first missiles ( 7) were delivered in 2018. 415 will include B2, C1,C2 and Som J variants.
 

TheInsider

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
4,066
Solutions
1
Reactions
34 14,482
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
OK, let's ask for some other valuable opinions.
@Yasar, @dBSPL and others.
This is a forum everyone is welcome to state their opinions but I don't need to listen to the opinions of other people when things are self-evident. If someone comes along and says no it is not, derby is not like that etc. Do you think I will change my mind?
 

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
3,251
Reactions
141 16,309
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
Discussing how far a missile will go is irrelevant. This is like discussing how far a rifle bullet will go. A 7.62mm bullet may go as far as 5 or 6 km before it falls on the ground. But no one ever discusses it. The important number is it’s effective range, in which it can kill an enemy. This could be 400m or 700m. That is why the manufacturer gives say 500m effective range and 700 m suppression range (500m is the range where you can aim and target correctly and the 700m being able to kill but not accurate to aim)

This is why missile ranges are given as effective and no escape zone.
Effective range Is the range in which the missile carries enough kinetic energy to catch up with the target and hit it. (Plane may still evade the missile). No escape zone is the range in which missile has plenty of energy as not to allow the target to escape. (Missile has power and/or speed to execute multiple manoeuvres.)

For those interested , below is a computer simulation study of amraam aim-120C missile. This missile has a dual thrust engine (Boost + Sustain) . It also gives examples of it if it had a dual pulse engine.
Due to this type of engine’s kinematic difference, the missile shows gains of more range, but loses more overall speed and time for a given altitude and a given launch platform speed. Also one has to remember that it makes a big difference where the second pulse is activated. If activated at the right time this would increase the range further too.
Most important player here is the altitude. Higher a missile is launched the more range it has. Also the higher the speed of the plane at launch the higher the missile range.


1668667861547.jpeg

1668667931265.jpeg

1668668000914.jpeg

Also one has to remember that each missile’s kinematic performance differs a lot. It is possible to increase immensely the range of a missile with the addition or subtraction of fins and canards. These are questions that can best be answered by missile manufacturers themselves.
 

Osman

Committed member
Messages
270
Reactions
6 527
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Air to air combat is really a tough issue. There are too many variables and factors. The specifications given by producer are superficial (they don't give NEZ, and NEZ also is variable depending on different factors). It is not easy to claim which modern missile is the best one or which air force will have air domination or supremacy in a war. Look at war in Ukraine. After nearly 9 months we still have a Ukranian Air Force.
 

Osman

Committed member
Messages
270
Reactions
6 527
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Good.

An old news about jdam record with f 22. Flying at 1.5 mach speed and 50 000 feet, the range is 45 km.



As far as I know hgk can be released at 40 000 feet and supersonic speeds (not as fast as 1.5 mach though)
 
Top Bottom