TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[TR_123456]

@Bogeyman

Regarding the stockpile of Turkish missiles, I refuse to believe that we don't have Pakistani missiles and rockets in our arsenal. It simply doesn't make any sense if you consider the deep-rooted, secretive and strategic nature of the relationship between the two states.

My guess is that we have a very high amount of unrevealed Pakistani origin missiles in our inventory.

Why would we have Pakistani origin missiles,for what reason?

 

[Kedikesenfare]

Why would we have Pakistani origin

Why? The question should rather be why not?

 

[TR_123456]

Why? The question should rather be why not?

Still remains the question,why for what purpose would we need any of these?
You need to explain,you cant just say ''why not?''.

 

[TheInsider]

If you add dual pulse on current weight it would become more heavier. thus, unlikely to acheive 100km effective range with current acceleration power.

No.

 

[Yasar_TR]

If you add dual pulse on current weight it would become more heavier. thus, unlikely to acheive 100km effective range with current acceleration power.

Let us learn what Dual Pulse and Dual Thrust are first:

Dual Pulse : Engine uses half of fuel at launch and until it reaches coasting speed. Then at terminal phase it uses second part of fuel to give itself more kinetic energy so as to not give any chance for target to evade.
Dual Thrust : Fuel tank contains a mixture of two different types of fuel with two different combustibility parameters. One type burns quick and gives initial boost speed. The second type burns slowly and sustains speed longer than normal solid fuelled missiles.

In both cases it doesn’t effect the weight of the missile in any adverse way.

 

[Afif]

Let us learn what Dual Pulse and Dual Thrust are first:

Dual Pulse : Engine uses half of fuel at launch and until it reaches coasting speed. Then at terminal phase it uses second part of fuel to give itself more kinetic energy so as to not give any chance for target to evade.
Dual Thrust : Fuel tank contains a mixture of two different types of fuel with two different combustibility parameters. One type burns quick and gives initial boost speed. The second type burns slowly and sustains speed longer than normal solid fuelled missiles.

In both cases it doesn’t effect the weight of the missile in any adverse way.

Thanks,
But I was just objecting to his idea of Bozdoğan ( not gokdogan ) reaching 100km effective range with just an additional dual pulse and RF seeker.

 

[Gary]

What is the production capacity of Turkish missile industry ? Last year I read around 600+ SOM had been delivered to the TAF. But no mention on when the production run start.

I finally found it. Turkish SOM orders are at 495 total.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1429191705031585792

We have 98 slam er (source: sipri) and some popeye 1s. For popeyes there are different numbers in open sources (100, 196, few hundreds etc). But their delivery was between 1997-2002, they should have had a modernisation (thermal battery and fuel). If this is the case their shell life will be exhausted in 2022-2027 or 2027-2032 at most. Some of them have been used in operations against pkk and pyd/ypg in ıraq and syria. And they can only be used by phantoms as far as I know.

quite low tbh, Turkiye needs to ramp up production especially when your neighbors are missile powerhouse like Russia and Iran. Although from the look of it, Turkish proliferation of air delivered smart bombs are a lot larger than both Russia and Iran.

 

[TheInsider]

Thanks,
But I was just objecting to his idea of Bozdoğan ( not gokdogan ) reaching 100km effective range with just an additional dual pulse and RF seeker.

You can object all you want. That doesn't change the fact that it is both possible and plausible. I-Derby Er is basically a modified Python-5 with an RF seeker and a dual-pulse rocket engine.

Python-5

• Length: 310 cm (120 in)
• Span: 64 cm (25 in)
• Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
• Weight: 105 kg (231 lb)
• Guidance: IR + electro-optical imaging
• Warhead: 11 kg (24 lb)
• Range: > 20 km (12 mi)
• Speed: Mach 4

Derby

• Length: 362 cm (143 in)
• Span: 64 cm (25 in)
• Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
• Weight: 118 kg (260 lb)
• Guidance: Active Radar
• Warhead: 23 kg (51 lb)
• Range: 50 km (31 mi)
• Speed: Mach 4

I-Derby ER

• Length: 362 cm (143 in)
• Span: 64 cm (25 in)
• Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
• Weight: 122 kg (260 lb)
• Guidance: Active Radar
• Warhead: 23 kg (51 lb)
• Range: 100 km (62 mi)
• Speed: Mach 4

 

[Slayer]

I finally found it. Turkish SOM orders are at 495 total.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1429191705031585792

quite low tbh, Turkiye needs to ramp up production especially when your neighbors are missile powerhouse like Russia and Iran. Although from the look of it, Turkish proliferation of air delivered smart bombs are a lot larger than both Russia and Iran.

It's about quality and not quantity.

 

[Afif]

You can object all you want. That doesn't change the fact that it is both possible and plausible. I-Derby Er is basically a modified Python-5 with an RF seeker and a dual-pulse rocket engine.

Python-5

• Length: 310 cm (120 in)
• Span: 64 cm (25 in)
• Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
• Weight: 105 kg (231 lb)
• Guidance: IR + electro-optical imaging
• Warhead: 11 kg (24 lb)
• Range: > 20 km (12 mi)
• Speed: Mach 4

Derby

• Length: 362 cm (143 in)
• Span: 64 cm (25 in)
• Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
• Weight: 118 kg (260 lb)
• Guidance: Active Radar
• Warhead: 23 kg (51 lb)
• Range: 50 km (31 mi)
• Speed: Mach 4

I-Derby ER

• Length: 362 cm (143 in)
• Span: 64 cm (25 in)
• Diameter: 16 cm (6.3 in)
• Weight: 122 kg (260 lb)
• Guidance: Active Radar
• Warhead: 23 kg (51 lb)
• Range: 100 km (62 mi)
• Speed: Mach 4

OK, let's ask for some other valuable opinions.
@Yasar, @dBSPL and others.

 

[Oublious]

I finally found it. Turkish SOM orders are at 495 total.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1429191705031585792

quite low tbh, Turkiye needs to ramp up production especially when your neighbors are missile powerhouse like Russia and Iran. Although from the look of it, Turkish proliferation of air delivered smart bombs are a lot larger than both Russia and Iran.

Thats missile for the Airforce, Kara Atmaca will be for the land force with range of 500km.

Roketsan - KARA ATMACA Surface-To-Surface Cruise Missile

www.roketsan.com.tr

 

[Osman]

I suppose, following the completion of the second order of 415 missiles, ther will be additional order for som, especially its new variants.

 

[Trakya_forever]

Som A was delivered in 2011 and first SOM B1 in 2012. 80 orders belongs to last batch of SOM B1 and first missiles ( 7) were delivered in 2018. 415 will include B2, C1,C2 and Som J variants.

 

[TheInsider]

OK, let's ask for some other valuable opinions.
@Yasar, @dBSPL and others.

This is a forum everyone is welcome to state their opinions but I don't need to listen to the opinions of other people when things are self-evident. If someone comes along and says no it is not, derby is not like that etc. Do you think I will change my mind?

 

[what]

You know its okay to agree to disagree sometimes and to move on.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Discussing how far a missile will go is irrelevant. This is like discussing how far a rifle bullet will go. A 7.62mm bullet may go as far as 5 or 6 km before it falls on the ground. But no one ever discusses it. The important number is it’s effective range, in which it can kill an enemy. This could be 400m or 700m. That is why the manufacturer gives say 500m effective range and 700 m suppression range (500m is the range where you can aim and target correctly and the 700m being able to kill but not accurate to aim)

This is why missile ranges are given as effective and no escape zone.
Effective range Is the range in which the missile carries enough kinetic energy to catch up with the target and hit it. (Plane may still evade the missile). No escape zone is the range in which missile has plenty of energy as not to allow the target to escape. (Missile has power and/or speed to execute multiple manoeuvres.)

For those interested , below is a computer simulation study of amraam aim-120C missile. This missile has a dual thrust engine (Boost + Sustain) . It also gives examples of it if it had a dual pulse engine.
Due to this type of engine’s kinematic difference, the missile shows gains of more range, but loses more overall speed and time for a given altitude and a given launch platform speed. Also one has to remember that it makes a big difference where the second pulse is activated. If activated at the right time this would increase the range further too.
Most important player here is the altitude. Higher a missile is launched the more range it has. Also the higher the speed of the plane at launch the higher the missile range.

Also one has to remember that each missile’s kinematic performance differs a lot. It is possible to increase immensely the range of a missile with the addition or subtraction of fins and canards. These are questions that can best be answered by missile manufacturers themselves.

 

[Osman]

Air to air combat is really a tough issue. There are too many variables and factors. The specifications given by producer are superficial (they don't give NEZ, and NEZ also is variable depending on different factors). It is not easy to claim which modern missile is the best one or which air force will have air domination or supremacy in a war. Look at war in Ukraine. After nearly 9 months we still have a Ukranian Air Force.

 

[Anmdt]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593163908160065537

 

[Osman]

Good.

An old news about jdam record with f 22. Flying at 1.5 mach speed and 50 000 feet, the range is 45 km.

F-22 scores direct hit in supersonic, high-altitude JDAM drop

June 13, 2006 The U.S. Air Force F-22 Combined Test Force team of Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Air Force pilots continued to successfully push the F-22 Raptor's capability last week when it released a Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) munition at supersonic speed, high altitude and standoff range.…

newatlas.com

As far as I know hgk can be released at 40 000 feet and supersonic speeds (not as fast as 1.5 mach though)

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

An image shared by a member named Shuff Shikan from Defense.pk from the IDEAS fair.