TR Politics

[Lool]

A fiasco I swear

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1632703763378057217

 

[contricusc]

In Erdoğan term, the islands in Aegean Sea were armed against the Treaty of Lausanne.And Erdogan did nothing. With the courage they got from here, Greece declared our airspace its own.And now they're trying to invade our continental shelf.

Nobody is trying to invade your continental shelf, and Greece would not have been arming the islands in the Aegean Sea if it was not for the consistent violation of their airspace by your forces. The aggressive rethoric from Erdogan coupled with the constant airspace violations are making Greece weary and this is why they are resorting to arming their islands.

https://gdh-data.s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/grece.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Mavi_Vatan.jpg/1280px-Mavi_Vatan.jpg

Just look at this two maps and tell me who is trying to invade????

The first map looks like the international recognized map, while the second map looks like a revisionist map stoking conflict and contesting Greece’s sovereignity.

The Kurdish initiative was made in this country during the Erdogan period .Then the PKK terrorist organization revived again.Our soldiers were shot in the head in public, but Erdogan did not allow the army to carry out an operation at that time.They dug everywhere in Diyarbakir, planted bombs and the government did not do anything as you wanted. We had to restore security by giving many martyrs.

I’m with you on the Kurdish issue, don’t get me wrong. I do not agree with the PKK terrorists and with the fact that EU supports them. This is why I was suggesting a negotiation with the EU where Turkey gives up its claims on the Greek EEZ and Northern Cyprus in exchange for support against the PKK terrorists and the end of EU help for such terrorists.

 

[Afif]

@contricusc the whole discussion is getting really interesting here.

Just a little fun fact, last year greece was complaining about US jets violating their airspace. So, state department basically told them to just shut the f**k up.

Even they thought, having 6 miles territorial water and then claiming 10 miles airspace was too inconsistent.

Don't you think?


Note, can any of the moderators move the discussion to more appropriate 'history and geopolitics thread'? @Yasar @what @TR_123456

 

[contricusc]

Wow,where did you get all this knowledge about my country's situation?

The information I have is from all over the internet, from news sites, opinion pieces to the likes of Wikipedia articles (I know not everything is 100% reliable, but overall, you can get a general view of the situation when reading from multipke sources)

''Holding Cyprus hostage''

The Cyprus issue is well known and documented. It’s not a secret what happened in Cyprus, or the fact that Turkey still has troops in the country 50 years after the war.

''Recognize Greece's EEZ rights''

Does Turkey recognize the following maps?

Marine Regions · Greek Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ)

Marine Regions · Turkish Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ)

Marine Regions · Cypriote Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ)

If it would, there woukd be no problem in the Aegean and the Mediterranean.

Why did Turkey not sign the UNCLOS like most of the World did?

List of parties to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kurdish issue in Turkiye(there is none)

So the PKK terrorists are no issue? Than why is Turkey blocking Sweden’s access to NATO? Wasn’t it because Sweden is harboring kurdish terrorists?

Turkish EU aplication

The Turkish EU application is no secret thing, but as long as there is hostility between Greece and Cyprus vs Turkey, it’s hard to see Turkey joining the EU.

What i want to know is where you got all this information from?
Which media or any other way of gathering information?

Information is all over the internet. Some of it is more biased depending on who writes it, but many sources are just telling the facts.

My point is, I don’t see a benefit for Turkey in having a combative stance against Greece and Cyprus (which automatically translates into a combative stance against the EU).

Cooperation instead of confrontation would be more beneficial for everyone.

 

[Sanchez]

Nobody is trying to invade your continental shelf, and Greece would not have been arming the islands in the Aegean Sea if it was not for the consistent violation of their airspace by your forces. The aggressive rethoric from Erdogan coupled with the constant airspace violations are making Greece weary and this is why they are resorting to arming their islands.



The first map looks like the international recognized map, while the second map looks like a revisionist map stoking conflict and contesting Greece’s sovereignity.




I’m with you on the Kurdish issue, don’t get me wrong. I do not agree with the PKK terrorists and with the fact that EU supports them. This is why I was suggesting a negotiation with the EU where Turkey gives up its claims on the Greek EEZ and Northern Cyprus in exchange for support against the PKK terrorists and the end of EU help for such terrorists.

Arming of the islands goes well before Erdogan. There is ambiguity from the Turkish side regarding the situation on islands, I'll give you that. Matter of the airspace around Aegean is a hard topic. Greece does two things over Aegean which Turkey disagrees. One is claiming that as the mainland and its islands make up the Athens FIR, all flights entering the Aegean needs Greece's permission or acceptance. This is wrong. FIR only relates to civilian flights. Military or governmental planes have no duty to uphold FIR and as long as they are outside of Greek airspace(meaning above Greece and its 6nm territorial waters and airspace they can do so as they wish, which is the internationally agreed upon arrangement. Turkish aircraft entering Athens FIR does not violate Greece's sovereignty as long as those aircraft does not enter directly Greek airspace at 6nm. This is similar to Taiwan ADIZ where newspapers say everytime a PLA aircraft patrols in the channel it entered the Taiwanese airspace, it's nonsense. Taiwan ADIZ is not Taiwanese airspace.

Second is that around the islands in the Aegean, Greece claims 10nm airspace, while having 6nm territorial waters. This is literally unheard of in the world and goes against every internationally agreed upon tradition and laws.

90% of the time, "Turkish aircraft violating Greek airspace" is a Turkish aircraft undertaking something similar to an American Freedom of Navigation operation(FRONOP) in international airspace, inside Athens FIR, but outside Greek airspace. Sometimes, it's Turkish aircraft flying near the islands still outside the internationally agreed upon 6nm territorial waters/airspace where Greece claims it's actually 10, and not 6. That is a violation as per Greece's view, but not by anyone else.

For example, this flight of a Turkish Navy MPA created a protest from Greece, saying it had violated Greek sovereignty, while as per all international law out there, it didn't. It left a Turkish airport, flew around in international airspace and later landed on another Turkish airport.

http://imgur.com/JeckPvj

Once or twice a year, when it goes pretty bad between the countries and Greece ramps up its intercepting of Turkish aircraft flying in international airspace, Turkish aircraft in retaliation makes a pass over an uninhabited or a small island with few hundred people. Those are the times when Greece is in the right, not the other hundreds of times every year. At that point it's basically boy who cried wolf.

"The first map looks like the international recognized map"
It can't be. It is not a valid map unless Turkey and Greece agrees on the Aegean part. Until the day Greece and Turkey sits down and agrees to delimitate and proclaim their respective EEZs, neither country has any exclusive economic rights in Aegean aside from inside their territorial waters.

 

[Bürküt]

Nobody is trying to invade your continental shelf, and Greece would not have been arming the islands in the Aegean Sea if it was not for the consistent violation of their airspace by your forces. The aggressive rethoric from Erdogan coupled with the constant airspace violations are making Greece weary and this is why they are resorting to arming their islands.



The first map looks like the international recognized map, while the second map looks like a revisionist map stoking conflict and contesting Greece’s sovereignity.

You say not to go out more than a jetski distance to our country, which is covered with seas on 3 sides. When we oppose this, we become revisionists.Greece uses Erdogan's bad image and harsh rhetoric to its advantage in the international community and tries to legitimize its own megaloidea, but in vain.I am eagerly awaiting the election.What will happen when Erdogan goes and replaces him with a leader who will defend our national interests in a more appropriate language?

Except for the HDP, which is closely related to the PKK, almost all opposition parties have declared that they will defend our national interests on the blue homeland and cyprus.The ideology of the blue homeland is now a supra-political issue for this nation.We will not burst our own lifeblood just to have good relations with the EU.Be aware of that.

 

[Lool]

So guys, what are your thoughts?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1632721855382536193

 

[Sanchez]

Mayors as advisers(calling cbaşkanı yardımcısı as vice president is wrong imo as they are not directly elected but appointed by the pres) is a small gesture but if it's good enough to keep the table whole, great win all around for them. Now they got 3 candidates they can sell to different demographics, instead of KK alone.

 

[Rodeo]

Now they got 3 candidates they can sell to different demographics, instead of KK alone.

I'm not so sure if public will buy this. If they negotiated it before kicking down the table, they could've avoided the drama.

HDP's position is still remaining to be seen. They were happy and were supporting KK after İYİP withdrew from the alliance. It would be a grave mistake if they(HDP) were invited to the table, imo.

 

[Ripley]

Dear @contricusc,
It is very clear that you have no form of formal education on political science or any critical thinking experience to establish any independent and meaningful opinion of yours.
I strongly recommend you give another try at debate team of your high school and if you fail again there, please take your hot air to Twitter and TikTok but not here.
Good luck.

And guys, could we please stop responding his troll baiting? It’s really below the intellect of this forum.

 

[dBSPL]

So guys, what are your thoughts?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1632721855382536193

Mansur Yavaş will be vice president. Iyip will be one of the two main elements of the new government. So, the control mechanism of the new government will be in the hands of the nationalists. This must also mean that Hdp and Tip stay away too. It is not ideal but a reasonable solution has been created. This much could not have been won if Akşener had not made this move. The vice presidents would have been Babacan, Davutoğlu etc.

Hopefully, we will create the ideal one with the next elections to be held after the transitional government. As soon as Kılıcdaroğlu makes a move to lift Demirtaş's detention, the new chapter will begin.

 

[Ripley]

Mayors as advisers(calling cbaşkanı yardımcısı as vice president is wrong imo as they are not directly elected but appointed by the pres) is a small gesture but if it's good enough to keep the table whole, great win all around for them. Now they got 3 candidates they can sell to different demographics, instead of KK alone.

This is nothing more than “operation save face” tbh. If Aksener wanna sell her party and electorates and works for everyone, why not. And turns out, those mayors are not to resign their posts after they’re appointed to those new posts.

 

[Ripley]

I'm not so sure if public will buy this. If they negotiated it before kicking down the table, they could've avoided the drama.

HDP's position is still remaining to be seen. They were happy and were supporting KK after İYİP withdrew from the alliance. It would be a grave mistake if they(HDP) were invited to the table, imo.

Mansur Yavaş will be vice president. Iyip will be one of the two main elements of the new government. So, the control mechanism of the new government will be in the hands of the nationalists. It must also mean that Hdp and Tip will be left out of the table. It is not ideal but a reasonable solution has been created. This much could not have been won if Akşener had not made this move. The vice presidents would have been Babacan, Davutoğlu etc.

Hopefully, we will create the ideal one with the next elections to be held after the transitional government.

After HDP’s unconditional support offer together with possibility of other parties on the left joining the coalition over the weekend, I would really like to see how this rapprochement attempt will end up my self.

 

[dBSPL]

After HDP’s unconditional support offer together with possibility of other parties on the left joining the coalition over the weekend, I would really like to see how this rapprochement attempt will end up my self.

My view of the political order in my country, a ranking from ideal to non-ideal:

A- A nationalist government
Isn't it possible?
B- Keeping the government under the control of a nationalist party organization
Isn't it possible?
C- The structure of the government and the political order in the country must have the conditions to strengthen the nationalist segment
Isn't it possible?
D- The political order must be reset.

 

[Ripley]

My view of the political order in my country, a ranking from ideal to non-ideal:

A- A nationalist government
Isn't it possible?
B- Keeping the government under the control of a nationalist party organization
Isn't it possible?
C- The structure of the government and the political order in the country must have the conditions to strengthen the nationalist segment
Isn't it possible?
D- The political order must be reset.

Nice.
Here’s what I envision for Turkey:

Restore parliamentary system and separate executive power, legislation and last but not least make the judiciary as never been independent in republic’s history.

I, personally, don’t care much for ideologies on political spectrum.

Trust me, a decent parliamentary system and separation of powers is more than adequate recipe for a solid, free and independent democracy.

 

[Fairon]

This is for the best. Opposition have 3 canditates that act as one. Opposition followers are more connected than before and this seems to uplifted the mood. They probably gain momentum again. They were losing that before.

And this is Akşener's doing. It was probably more harsh than it's supposed to and could have been more subtle but it was necessary.

 

[Lool]

Mansur Yavaş will be vice president. Iyip will be one of the two main elements of the new government. So, the control mechanism of the new government will be in the hands of the nationalists. This must also mean that Hdp and Tip stay away too. It is not ideal but a reasonable solution has been created. This much could not have been won if Akşener had not made this move. The vice presidents would have been Babacan, Davutoğlu etc.

Hopefully, we will create the ideal one with the next elections to be held after the transitional government. As soon as Kılıcdaroğlu makes a move to lift Demirtaş's detention, the new chapter will begin.

How will it be one of the main elements of the new govt?
Yavas being the vice president just means that the CHP will still own everything; moreover, Yavas is old so I dont expect him to survive in this field for too long tbh. If Aksener asked for the position of the vice president for a member of the iYi, then I would have said that your analysis is spot on

With this, Aksener literally gave the power back to the HDP/CHP for at least 6 years. Finally, if they did fullfill their promise of switching the presidential system back to the parliamentary system and initiate new elections, will the iYi alone be able to defeat the table of 5 alone? I dont think so

 

[Ripley]

How will it be one of the main elements of the new govt?
Yavas being the vice president just means that the CHP will still own everything; moreover, Yavas is old so I dont expect him to survive in this field for too long tbh. If Aksener asked for the position of the vice president fora member of the iYi, then I would have said that your analysis is spot on

With this, Aksener literally gave the power back to the HDP/CHP for at least 6 years. Finally, if they did fullfill their promise of switching the presidential system back to the parliamentary system and initiate new elections, will the iYi alone be able to defeat the table of 5 alone? I dont think so

Again, it is ”operation face save”.
If she can sell this to her followers as their candidates were “selected” as candidates, fine. It’s not that those two will run on separate vice president tickets. It’s purely honorary, if you will.

 

[Oublious]

As long as Turkey’s interests diverge from those of the EU, yes, they would want it on a leash. But if Turkey would align its interests with those of the wider EU, than a strong and developed Turkey would be good for everyone.

The problem right now is that the EU doesn’t trust Turkey, because of the Greek EEZ and the Cyprus issues. The EU badly beeds Cyprus to develop its gas resources in the Mediterranean, and Turkey is blocking that.

If Turkey would be less hostile towards Greece and would withdraw its troops from Cyprus, the relations with the EU could quickly change for the better, and Turkey could even join one day.

lol

Greece trying to make it EU problem, one side claims you can go flush it in the W.C. .

 

[Baryshx]

Nothing will come out of the tin table of 6.

Kılıçdaroğlu will be the second Erdogan, because new openings will come. But the chp base is not like akp supporters, they will kick Kılıçdaroğlu out.