TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[Heartbang]

@Fairon @Lool
This is T-929:

This is T-925:

This is T-625:

And this is (the closest approximation we have to) T-629:

 

[Sanchez]

Sorry guys but may some1 remind me what was the difference between the T-925, T-929, and T-625 again as I completely forgot

edit. Deleting the photos as Heartbang also added them.

T625 Gökbey is a 6 ton general use helicopter similar in size to AW169, H160 and Dhruv
T629 also known as "Atak 1.5" is a 6 ton attack helicopter using the same engine and transmission as the T625. It will be a bit heavier than T129 Atak and much more capable, and fully Turkish unlike T129.
T925 is a 11 ton general use helicopter similar size to Sikorsky S-92 and Eurocopter Caracal or Super Puma.
T929 Atak 2 is a 11 ton heavy attack helicopter using the same engine and transmission as the T925 and is similar sized to Ka-52.

 

[B_A]

American mainly AH64 and a few AH1, Russian Ka50/52 Mi-28 Mi24/35,others mainly 1 or 2 type

We will have T129 AH1 T629 T929 attack helicopters.....

 

[Fairon]

@Fairon @Lool
This is T-929:

This is T-925:

This is T-625:

And this is (the closest approximation we have to) T-629:

I am aware. T625 and T629 are basically the same helicopter like Huey and Cobra.(outside look is not that important) So logistics wise if you buy one it is very tempting to buy the other.

It is same for the T925 and T929 but they most likely will be considerably expansive than T625/629.

 

[Khagan1923]

@Fairon @Lool
This is T-929:

This is T-925:

This is T-625:

And this is (the closest approximation we have to) T-629:

This is a better model of the manned T-629. Though the design would most likely see severe changes from this 2019 mock-up made by TAI.

American mainly AH64 and a few AH1, Russian Ka50/52 Mi-28 Mi24/35,others mainly 1 or 2 type

We will have T129 AH1 T629 T929 attack helicopters.....

No you don't. AH-1 will be scrapped once the Navy gets Navalized T-929/629. T-929 due to engine challenges is most likely years if not even a decade away. T-629 will most likely take T-929 timeline over and enter inventory 2026-2028 (More likely 2028) just as T-129 license runs out. Italians aren't easy to deal with and will most likely delay the agreement to extend the license and even demands atrocious sums for a deal, we are talking hundreds of millions maybe even a billion. Not only that who knows how many deals TAI lost out on because the customers did not want to deal with the US or Italians?

T-629 will also be more capable meaning it will be more deadly, it will be more survivable and it will be more exportable for TAI. Also TAI will be able to offer a combo deal of Gökbey+T-629 to potential costumers.

So in the end until T-929 is actually ready we will have two attack choppers in the inventory, T-129 and T-629. Just like we have AH-1W and T-129 right now. Also if France can sell its second hand Rafale to countries we can sell our second hand T-129 to other countries if it is necessary.

There is a clear reason why the TSK is asking for this chopper. Let them worry about the number of Helicopters in their inventory.

Also IMO the number of T-129 we have in inventory is lacking. Yes it is better than what we had before but still lacking.

In the end we shall see what happens. But it is clear that TSK wants to get its hands on a more capable chopper.

 

[Sanchez]

Also IMO the number of T-129 we have in inventory is lacking. Yes it is better than what we had before but still lacking.

Agree. Suffice to say as Phase 3 is scrapped for T129, the 35 options for T129 will be made a reality with T629 so we can expect at least 35 T629s for KKK already.

 

[boredaf]

Do Russians have suitable engines for the T929, perhaps they do.

We are never going to get an engine from them, there is literally no logical reason to acquire anything from them, especially when it comes to military matters.

I'm glad they are reviving T-629 project, we need it to be ready before the license for T-129 runs out.

Didn't attack helicopter a outdated weapon system?

Both sides are heavily using helicopters heavily in Ukraine right now. KA-52 has been one of the most successful assets Russians use in the war. US military ordered 100 a year or two ago, many other countries also ordered or planning to order new helicopters. It isn't outdated at all, it still has a place on the battlefield.

 

[Sanchez]

Both sides are heavily using helicopters heavily in Ukraine right now. KA-52 has been one of the most successful assets Russian uses in the war. US military ordered 100 a year or two ago, many other countries also ordered or planning to order new helicopters. It isn't outdated at all, it still has a place on the battlefield.

And to add, multiple countries are also developing new ones or adding newer capabilities to available platforms. US is procuring new, longer range and faster scout attack helis, making Apaches able to take control of any UAV in the sky with Apache E, Chinese are modifying Z-10, Indians are making the Prachand, Russians made the Ka-52 etc.

 

[Bürküt]

T-129 license runs out in 2028 which means even if TAI scores more exports they won't be able to sell anymore T-129 from 2028(which is in 4 years btw) unless they agree with Leonardo to extend the license which will most likely cost 8 to 9 figures if not even more, we also don't know if this means TAI won't be able to work on the fuselage at all meaning there is a chance we would need to sit down with the Italians just to upgrade the T-129 fleet in a couple years.. There also have been numerous problems with the Italians as much as everything is potraid sunshiney.

T-129 also has some defiancies such as its feeding mechanism for the turret as the A-129 was never meant to have a turret in the first place. MMW Radars or Satcom can't be placed on the helicopter without restricting its armaments. Also some other points are touched upon in the video such as restrictions for export and other embargos applied on us which is the biggest reason why T-629 seems to have been greenlit over the last few months coupled with performance related demands the revelant parts have been marked.

I also think this move has some parts to do with the fact that we straight up do not have a engine for the T-929 project but we do have a engine for the T-629. It would be slightly larger than the T-129, weigh more (5T vs 6T) and be able to operate under heavier load such as more armaments, MMW Radar, SATCOM etc. Also no embargo threats and no problems when exporting the chopper to another country.

It will share parts with Gökbey which also would make them both a lethal combo in the export market.

Also I do not think that the T-129 will continue to run after 2028 nor do I think will the T-629 arrive earlier than 2028. The goal here is most likely to have a ITAR free chopper that solves the performance related criticism by the user and allows TAI to export it freely to other countries.

There was a proposed Phase-III upgrade that I summarized last year here which then was reported to have been cancelled for some reason. Now I think we know why. Those upgrades will be implemented with T-629 instead of wasting more money on the T-129.

It also can be navalized from the get go and be used by the Navy on Anadolu as well.

There are good reasons for this project. And I for one am happy that it was revived.




TS3000 should have been made a priority. This engine issue will most likely delay the T-929 by years. Which most likely also plays a small part why T-629 was "revived". Now I am interest how they mean to solve the engine issue for the T-925 project though? Maybe divert to American Engines (T701) in the hopes the US will allow it as it will be mainly a transport chopper and not combat? I don't really see any other alternatives. Are there any british engines they could go for? But even if there is won't that be a nightmare leading to re-designing the chopper and just straight up a maintance nightmare for the TSK.

In the video, Saffet Uyanık says that T629 will not be a weaponized Gökbey like Korea's LAH . Therefore it is more logical to spend the money , manpower and time on the TS3000 rather than designing a new helicopter .We need to question how logical the idea that we will definetly sell everything we produce to everyone (havada karada) .Just because we have demonstrated this success in the UAV field, it is not a rule that we will definitely make it in the other fields. But some of us seem to be caught up in this guaranteed idea.In any case, we will produce Heavy Class Attack helicopters for KKK.If we can sell it to a few countries at that level, it will be the strawberry on the cake thats all.

 

[boredaf]

US is procuring new, longer range and faster scout attack helis,

Thanks Putin's stupidity, US now doesn't have to worry about Russia's conventional military, so, they are completely focusing on China and a war in the Pacific, that's why their new helos are heavily focused on speed and range.

 

[boredaf]

rather than designing a new helicopter

It was already being designed, albeit not at a breakneck speed, for some time now. Once the license for T-129 runs out, T-629 was always planned to replace it as the light attack helo, as far as I can remember. It's advantage is it will be ours completely, designed for us, and by us, to perfectly fit our needs, instead of making the best of what we can get. It is a necessity and if the engine problems are going to delay T-929/925, it makes sense to pull the project forward a bit.

 

[Khagan1923]

In the video, Saffet Uyanık says that T629 will not be a weaponized Gökbey like Korea's LAH . Therefore it is more logical to spend the money , manpower and time on the TS3000 rather than designing a new helicopter .We need to question how logical the idea that we will definetly sell everything we produce to everyone (havada karada) .Just because we have demonstrated this success in the UAV field, it is not a rule that we will definitely make it in the other fields. But some of us seem to be caught up in this guaranteed idea.In any case, we will produce Heavy Class Attack helicopters for KKK.If we can sell it to a few countries at that level, it will be the strawberry on the cake thats all.

I think you don't understand what they mean with "it will share parts with Gökbey". T-629 will and does look nothing like Gökbey. Saffet Uyanik clarifies this in the video as many people misunderstood "Armed version of Gökbey" to mean something like the South Korean LAH. Also T-629 exists for 4-5 years already it is nothing new. They are not starting from scratch. Also TEI starting development of a TS3000 has nothing to do with TAI working on T-629. Also no one said that the main reason for the development of the T-629 are export reasons, that is only on of the reason why it makes sense.

TS3000 if started today will take half a decade if we are lucky for the first LRIP to take place. There won't be a T-929 until then unless they find solve the engine issue in another way. TSK cleary has no interest waiting that long for the T-929 and wants a more capable Attack Helicopter to enter inventory in the next years.

Don't be offended but I don't understand the purpose of your post. Did you misread what I wrote?

 

[Bürküt]

Also no one said that the main reason for the development of the T-629 are export reasons, that is only on of the reason why it makes sense.Don't be offended but I don't understand the purpose of your post. Did you misread what I wrote?

It's all good I'm not offended.If you mean the last part of what I wrote, I wasn't saying it to you there . But there has been a confusion because I only quoted you thats my bad.

Also T-629 exists for 4-5 years already it is nothing new. They are not starting from scratch. Also TEI starting development of a TS3000 has nothing to do with TAI working on T-629.

The fact that certain subsystems are common with Gökbey doesn't mean that the program will not cost a certain amount of manpower and money.The first thing I said was that this program should never have existed in the first place.TAİ shouldn't use its energy in such programs.

I think you don't understand what they mean with "it will share parts with Gökbey". T-629 will and does look nothing like Gökbey. Saffet Uyanik clarifies this in the video as many people misunderstood "Armed version of Gökbey" to mean something like the South Korean LAH.

Yes I said the same thing already.

 

[boredaf]

The first thing I said was that this program should never have existed in the first place.TAİ shouldn't use its energy for such programs.

But that is exactly where you are wrong mate. T-629 is a necessity, we have a limited license for T-129 and our need for light attack helos isn't going to end with it. We need to have a helicopter to fill our needs that completely belongs to us.

 

[Bürküt]

But that is exactly where you are wrong mate. T-629 is a necessity, we have a limited license for T-129 and our need for light attack helos isn't going to end with it. We need to have a helicopter to fill our needs that completely belongs to us.

I won't make a comment such "we have so many UCAVs so attack helicopters are no longer needed " but they took a certain burden that used to be on attack helicopters and F16s in the past.And as far as I know, there are around 83 T129 in inventory.Just because we have a limited license for T129 does not mean that we can not fill our needs with it.Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that KKK should not take its capabilities to the next level.But I don't think we need both Light and Heavy classes separately for this development and I don't find it efficent.Until the T929s arrive, the capabilities we already have are quite sufficient.

 

[Baryshx]

I think the Kızılelma and Hürjet engines have the same problems. If not, it will come out soon. We have a very good proverbs about this.

 

[dBSPL]

We need to scale up prototype/frontier projects such as Titra Alpin, Bvlos Jackal, etc. several times larger and get muscle up unmanned rotary wing attack platforms suitable for military offensive purposes. These helicopters should be capable of carrying multiple numbers of mini loitering, swarm capable missiles/drones. I'm talking about higher lift capacity, more advanced systems, basically, many times more expensive aircrafts.

But, Electric propulsion is not essential. We already have a rotary wing engine, TS1400. It should be a platform that can accompany the T-129 with its light armor and operational range with the 3-4 ton mtow. The attack helicopter's gunner assistant pilot should have direct control access to these rotary wing unmanned attack aircraft. Today's autonomy capabilities make it possible to carry out already a large part of the mission autonomously, so pilot is just needed for final decision making, which again, AI system could give accurate decision support to operator.

In short, we need to synthesize the progress we have made in unmanned systems with conventional close air support systems.

 

[Sanchez]

but they took a certain burden that used to be on attack helicopters and F16s in the past

To add to this, we never had this many attack helicopters before. It's now 58 in KKK service, 13 with JGK and 3 with EGM.

11 years ago, we only had 12 attack helicopters, we now have 74(+11 whiskeys for the navy), at least half of which are potentially used in COIN ops. They are available like never before but looking at the footage coming out, in the hottest zones, T129s are only used at night. Helicopters are absolutely necessary for the kind of ops we undertake, especially in Iraq, but they are vulnerable to ground fire. Even with all this however, having 6 times the attack helicopters unlike before and them being vulnerable, KKK looks to be still very much interested in T629 according to everything that has been said so far.

On a tangent, between 2014 and 2021, TAI delivered 54 T129s to the army. First Phase 2 was delivered in 2021 with the 54th and in the last 2 years, 4 more were delivered. I believe KKK's order is now complete. Only JGK's remaining 11 are to be delivered to total it at 24, add to it 6 for Nigeria and presumably 2+6 options for Philippines. Whole T129 project was very successful by and large. Mind you, only 60 A129s were ever produced.

 

[Aqerdf]

Maybe we should opt. 3-engine config. with TS-1400 (let's say 1600 hp)

It would give Caracal performance for 925. And AH-64D performance for 929 (?) Atleast until 2030s ?

 

[Zafer]

We need to scale up prototype/frontier projects such as Titra Alpin, Bvlos Jackal, etc. several times larger and get muscle up unmanned rotary wing attack platforms suitable for military offensive purposes. These helicopters should be capable of carrying multiple numbers of mini loitering, swarm capable missiles/drones. I'm talking about higher lift capacity, more advanced systems, basically, many times more expensive aircrafts.

But, Electric propulsion is not essential. We already have a rotary wing engine, TS1400. It should be a platform that can accompany the T-129 with its light armor and operational range with the 3-4 ton mtow. The attack helicopter's gunner assistant pilot should have direct control access to these rotary wing unmanned attack aircraft. Today's autonomy capabilities make it possible to carry out already a large part of the mission autonomously, so pilot is just needed for final decision making, which again, AI system could give accurate decision support to operator.

In short, we need to synthesize the progress we have made in unmanned systems with conventional close air support systems.

Electric propulsion limits endurance/payload to 1/14th of combustion power. So designs using fossil fuels must be encouraged. There are several smaller domestic engines counting down to emerge, then the design-space should explode.