TR Navy Naval Programs

[Sanchez]

It seems like Kaibar and Heybeliada similar in length but Babur is longer than them. That means if it isn't beacuse of perspective, there is a size difference between Kaibar and Babur. I wonder why that is.

I think it's mostly the perspective.

 

[Saithan]

Savunma projelerine KDV muafiyeti

Milli Savunma Bakanlığı ve Savunma Sanayii Başkanlığınca yürütülen savunma sanayi proje teslim ve hizmetleri KDV'den muaf tutulacak.

www.sozcu.com.tr

Deliveries and services made in relation to defense industry projects carried out by the Ministry of National Defence (MSB) or the Presidency of Defence Industries (SSB) will be exempt from value-added tax (VAT) as of 25 December 2021.

Aselsan is delivering all of its products in the scope of Milgem 6-8 project. Ereğli is delivering ship steel in the scope of Milgem 6-8 project. Every national item delivered in the scope of Milgem 6-8 project is exempted from VAT(%20).

I may be wrong but wouldn’t it be better to pay VAT as the public company and state would be reimbursed while private companies would have a chance to reconciliate and deduct VAT from sales and purchases. VAT is the consumers burden.

 

[Brave Janissary]

As it is known, Hisar class Tcg Koçhisar and Tcg Akhisar were launched. However, the configuration of the remaining 8 ships is not clear. The probabilities and the ship's force multiplier are explained very well in the video.

 

[uçuyorum]

I've just read Mavi Vatan’ın Güney Cephesi: Doğu Akdeniz by Cem Gürdeniz and the fact that Navy having such importance only getting 11-18% of already small annual defence budget is crazy. I think we have a room for at least 30% growth in personnel and budget for them.

We have a lot of projects that we really need to accelerate. TF2000 are needed for survivability of our entire fleet and also for protecting our airspace from even further. But even then the anti ship capabilities are growing further and while Reis class are considered very good, I think we must go faster with Milden and Stm500, and focus more on cruise missile launching capability of our submarines. The navy already knows and is working on these, we just need to push it more and fund it more. A more survivable fleet is critical. We have limited budget for sure but I think these deserve the priority. Especially over a lot of other government expenditures.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I've just read Mavi Vatan’ın Güney Cephesi: Doğu Akdeniz by Cem Gürdeniz and the fact that Navy having such importance only getting 11-18% of already small annual defence budget is crazy. I think we have a room for at least 30% growth in personnel and budget for them.

We have a lot of projects that we really need to accelerate. TF2000 are needed for survivability of our entire fleet and also for protecting our airspace from even further. But even then the anti ship capabilities are growing further and while Reis class are considered very good, I think we must go faster with Milden and Stm500, and focus more on cruise missile launching capability of our submarines. The navy already knows and is working on these, we just need to push it more and fund it more. A more survivable fleet is critical. We have limited budget for sure but I think these deserve the priority. Especially over a lot of other government expenditures.

As I had previously mentioned, I was against the building of such a large and bulky white elephant like the TCG Anadolu. It was too expensive to build and too expensive to maintain and use. Two or three more Bayraktar Class LST ships would have been the cleverer choice; And they would have been able to meet most of the duties we were expecting from the LHD today at a fraction of the cost. TCG Anadolu is an amphibious assault vessel and number one target for all enemies of Turkey. We don’t have enough means to protect her and don’t have enough fire power to project her assaulting prowess either. It can and should have around a dozen Seahawks, a good number of navalised T-929 and T-926 helicopters.
Now we are making the same mistake with TF2000. A very expensive destroyer that will become a target. Albeit better protected than TCG Anadolu, it is nevertheless a big bulky ship that is too expensive to build and run. For a country like Turkey where finances are dire and the effect of loss of an asset like a destroyer or an LHD is just too painful to bear, the logical choice should have been more I-Class and may be a decent number of 4500 ton class frigates to complement the current ships we have in our inventory.
Addition of more submarines is also needed. As you rightfully pointed out, Milden program needs to be hastened. STM-500 mini sub program also is important.
Since TCG Anadolu is here we will have to live with this big boy and look after it.
Our Navy doesn’t really need a 8500 ton destroyer; but it needs 4 to 8 more, small to medium size (~3500 to 4500 ton) air defence frigates, 6 new Milden subs, 10 new fast attack crafts, a plethora of various unmanned sea crafts to be able to conduct missions of ASW, ASuW, intelligence, EW, land attack etc. In addition we need probably at least a dozen of navalised 10 ton helicopters that are of the same ilk as Seahawks.
To provide funds for all this is not easy. Since Navy is not the only part of our armed forces that need investing in, we need to compartmentalise the expense structure accordingly. We have a stealth plane to build. An engine that needs to be developed to fly that plane. New UAVs to come yet. The Land Forces need new tanks, artillery and armoured fighting vehicles.
There is also the matter about the smart munitions and bombs and missiles that need to be funded.
There are literally hundreds of defence projects being worked on and only a handful are in the inventory. We are still waiting for SOM-C variants, SOM-J, Atmaca Land , CAKIR , Gokdogan, Bozdogan, etc etc. these are just a few we know that have been tested successfully but not found their way in to our inventory yet.
So yes we need a lot of stuff. But must be careful about spending the funds we allocate for our defence and spend it more cleverly.

 

[UkroTurk]

Add on list +10 midget subs (100tonnes) with medium torpedos.

Qatar's M23 secret sub are being constructed in Italy.

 

[uçuyorum]

As I had previously mentioned, I was against the building of such a large and bulky white elephant like the TCG Anadolu. It was too expensive to build and too expensive to maintain and use. Two or three more Bayraktar Class LST ships would have been the cleverer choice; And they would have been able to meet most of the duties we were expecting from the LHD today at a fraction of the cost. TCG Anadolu is an amphibious assault vessel and number one target for all enemies of Turkey. We don’t have enough means to protect her and don’t have enough fire power to project her assaulting prowess either. It can and should have around a dozen Seahawks, a good number of navalised T-929 and T-926 helicopters.
Now we are making the same mistake with TF2000. A very expensive destroyer that will become a target. Albeit better protected than TCG Anadolu, it is nevertheless a big bulky ship that is too expensive to build and run. For a country like Turkey where finances are dire and the effect of loss of an asset like a destroyer or an LHD is just too painful to bear, the logical choice should have been more I-Class and may be a decent number of 4500 ton class frigates to complement the current ships we have in our inventory.
Addition of more submarines is also needed. As you rightfully pointed out, Milden program needs to be hastened. STM-500 mini sub program also is important.
Since TCG Anadolu is here we will have to live with this big boy and look after it.
Our Navy doesn’t really need a 8500 ton destroyer; but it needs 4 to 8 more, small to medium size (~3500 to 4500 ton) air defence frigates, 6 new Milden subs, 10 new fast attack crafts, a plethora of various unmanned sea crafts to be able to conduct missions of ASW, ASuW, intelligence, EW, land attack etc. In addition we need probably at least a dozen of navalised 10 ton helicopters that are of the same ilk as Seahawks.
To provide funds for all this is not easy. Since Navy is not the only part of our armed forces that need investing in, we need to compartmentalise the expense structure accordingly. We have a stealth plane to build. An engine that needs to be developed to fly that plane. New UAVs to come yet. The Land Forces need new tanks, artillery and armoured fighting vehicles.
There is also the matter about the smart munitions and bombs and missiles that need to be funded.
There are literally hundreds of defence projects being worked on and only a handful are in the inventory. We are still waiting for SOM-C variants, SOM-J, Atmaca Land , CAKIR , Gokdogan, Bozdogan, etc etc. these are just a few we know that have been tested successfully but not found their way in to our inventory yet.
So yes we need a lot of stuff. But must be careful about spending the funds we allocate for our defence and spend it more cleverly.

TF2000 are not just for defending the Anadolu though, they will provide area defence for entire rest of fleet, including Istif with limited number of VLS and sensors. There is also the matter of ballistic missile defence in the future. We are already making Siper, we need a ship that can make use of it. That's in addition to command and control abilities of that ship for other theater operations. Those were needed more than Anadolu honestly. But most navy agrees on importance of having Anadolu as well.

 

[Afif]

TF2000 are not just for defending the Anadolu though, they will provide area defence for entire rest of fleet, including Istif

You cannot provide area defence to other ships because AShM are super sea-skimming. (Unless Istif ships are deployed very close the TF-2000, which would have little to no operational value. The point of having multiple surface combatants is to spread them strategically to maximise the operational effectiveness)

if you are talking about providing area defence against enemy fighters carrying AShM, then again, i would argue that it does not worth effort either. Because vast majority of AShM are stand off weapons. (250-500km)

Also, keep in mind that enemy Fighters also can perform sea skimming beneath the envelop of TF-2000 powerful radar and SIPER interceptor anyway.

However, i agree with the effectiveness of ABM role, as well as carrying loads of weapon including Long range land attack cruise missiles (Gegzin) for power projection and tactical surprise. additionally, the ability to command and control for theatre operation is also a plus point.

Nonetheless, I still think what @Yasar said is right on the point. In my opinion, having taken into account all the pros and benefit of such large combatants, if we do a cost benefit analysis, (prioritising defensive posture over expeditionary ambitions) then maybe, such large surface combatants are not the best strategy.
As @Yasar said-

For a country like Turkey where finances are dire and the effect of loss of an asset like a destroyer or an LHD is just too painful to bear

because, even with the finest equipments, in a full blown war with near-peer adversary loss is not avoidable.

And most important of all, the biggest vulnerability of TF-2000 or (for that matter) any other big surface combatant, is not related to surface or areal threat. It comes from underneath. Where no matter how advance your surface combatant is, enemy submarine still enjoy the asymmetrical advantage to seize, retain and exploit the initiative.

Note- It is important to keep In mind, all of this is based on the premise of 'prioritising defence posture over expeditionary force design or blue water ambition' and the assumption that 'it is the best course of strategy for Turkey’s condition in the near future.'


Edit- Of course, this is my personal opinion only. There are more esteemed members here in this forum, who have far deeper insights in the subject then me. @Anmdt

 

[dBSPL]

I have always found the illustrations that put 4 TF-2000s in 4 territorial waters very ridiculous. The mission of these destroyers is not in territorial waters, but to be the cornerstone of the Turkish navy's high seas doctrine. It's not about line defense, it's about forward areas dominance.

 

[uçuyorum]

Don't forget we are actively using Gabya class for AAW duties in Libya, and TF2000 are meant to replace those. It is already part of our operations, TF2000 is there to modernize and extend that capability.

 

[Afif]

Don't forget we are actively using Gabya class for AAW duties in Libya, and TF2000 are meant to replace those. It is already part of our operations, TF2000 is there to modernize and extend that capability.

The same can be achieved with 4000-4500 tons AAW frigate equipped with 32x VLS. (probably costing half, and also offering the flexibility of being produced in grater numbers)

 

[UkroTurk]

Don't forget we are actively using Gabya class for AAW duties in Libya, and TF2000 are meant to replace those. It is already part of our operations, TF2000 is there to modernize and extend that capability.

Gabya class barely defends itself. They are the most solid as ship we have that's why Gabya is around Libya.

To be honest if we sent TF-2000 to Libya and if Egypt or France or USA or Greece was totally against us, the enemy could destroy TF2000 which would be far from mainland.

Just TF 2000 is not capable blocking the Mediterranean airspace. In case of real war, sending TF 2000 to Libya would be suicide mission.

First we should close the gap of self defense systems of our warships.

Let SİPER's range be 150km.
İn the middle of the Mediterranean, Alone TF 2000 would be easy and expensive target like Russian flagship which was destroyed.

So we need to focus on realistic defense doctrines.

First we need to secure our shores and Cyprus so we need more Light frigates with larger air defense capabilities and solid self defense systems.

 

[dBSPL]

No ship is unsinkable, but there is a cost to sinking every flagship. And the staff mind has the potential to raise that cost to an unaffordable level. If money alone could build an army, the some*** countries around us would have become military superpowers by now.

IMHO, for a similar ship of the TF-2000 superstructure to be under a long range AShM saturation attack from multiple platforms, that ship must first of all be under the command of a staff led by hundreds of foreign advisors who have no naval tradition and are probably incapable of even maintaining a navy nationally. It cannot be ignored that these ships are floating home soils, that they have the firepower to invade a small-sized country, and that technologically they represent the pinnacle of their country's capabilities. They are not easy targets, neither in means for tactically maneuvering nor countermeasures and deterrent counter-fire. Anyway, deployment to hot zones takes place in flotillas. In any case, when these ships are sailing in the hot zone, they show their presence in an area of hundreds of kilometers. We already know how powerful main mast these ships will have. Area dominance, not stealthness, is the main doctrine here. It stands for: If you're willing to sink me, you're more likely to sink yourself.

 

[UkroTurk]

İf 20 fighters engaged, even your destroyer is an easy target because you sent the ship further than your capabilities.

Weiterleitungshinweis

2021 Black Sea incident - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In case of Libya, if Egypt's or Greeks land based AShm systems attacked TF2000 the results would be worse than we could imagine.

Sending a destroyer is a big challenge.

 

[boredaf]

We, unfortunately, have to accept the fact that people in charge care more about grandstanding and showing off than actual, meaningful planning. Maybe not all of the time, but still enough to be detrimental to our safety.

I agree with everything that has been said about TCG-Anadolu and TF2000, they are more vanity projects than necessary acquisitions for our Navy. Imo, same can be said about Kaan as well, not the plane itself don't get me wrong, but the fact that we focused on it first instead of an engine; because showing an engine isn't showing off power in the eyes of the general populace. But a 5th generation plane, that is power.

That's why I hope, at least, TB-3 is a success because then we can have some bang for our buck from TCG-Anadolu.

 

[No Name]

İf 20 fighters engaged, even your destroyer is an easy target because you sent the ship further than your capabilities.

Weiterleitungshinweis

2021 Black Sea incident - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

In case of Libya, if Egypt's or Greeks land based AShm systems attacked TF2000 the results would be worse than we could imagine.

Sending a destroyer is a big challenge.

Couldn't Türkiye use the USV as a force multiplier and increase the defensive capabilities of the TCG-Anadolu and TF2000?

By having the USV act as the first line of defence, the TCG-Anadolu and TF2000 have greater air-defence capabilities and a more difficult-to-penetrate solid self-defence shield accompanying them.

 

[boredaf]

Couldn't Türkiye use the USV as a force multiplier and increase the defensive capabilities of the TCG-Anadolu and TF2000?

By having the USV act as the first line of defence, the TCG-Anadolu and TF2000 have greater air-defence capabilities and a more difficult-to-penetrate solid self-defence shield accompanying them.

That's honestly my hope from our USVs. Give our ships 2/4 USVs they can use when necessary and/or build motherships that'll carry a number of USVs to accompany our other ships and use them in air defense.

 

[No Name]

That's honestly my hope from our USVs. Give our ships 2/4 USVs they can use when necessary and/or build motherships that'll carry a number of USVs to accompany our other ships and use them in air defenc.

I honestly thought that from the very start, the plan was to use USVs to make up for the lack of additional air defence frigates and create a fleet of expensive large ships defended by a fleet of much smaller cheaper USVs thus creating a cheap yet effective carrier group.

 

[Aloster]

I honestly thought that from the very start, the plan was to use USVs to make up for the lack of additional air defence frigates and create a fleet of expensive large ships defended by a fleet of much smaller cheaper USVs thus creating a cheap yet effective carrier group.

Approx. 2 weeks ago @Brave Janissary mention it. We have to follow this path. Again previously I said, Our main ships radars has more range and capabilities than our current AD missiles. Via kement, each Ada class can use their capabilities to obtain TF2000 like abilities. Think them with 3 wingman USV. Fastly, easily, cheaply produced 20-30 m lenght USVs navigation radar, optical tracking system, kement link, with inclined position hisar rf, hisar O+ missiles (We don't have to design new missiles) with 8 of them also with 2 cakir . Positioned 10-15 miles away from mother ships. If some one circled like that I'm sure we see good area coverage.

 

[No Name]

Approx. 2 weeks ago @Brave Janissary mention it. We have to follow this path. Again previously I said, Our main ships radars has more range and capabilities than our current AD missiles. Via kement, each Ada class can use their capabilities to obtain TF2000 like abilities. Think them with 3 wingman USV. Fastly, easily, cheaply produced 20-30 m lenght USVs navigation radar, optical tracking system, kement link, with inclined position hisar rf, hisar O+ missiles (We don't have to design new missiles) with 8 of them also with 2 cakir . Positioned 10-15 miles away from mother ships. If some one circled like that I'm sure we see good area coverage.

The main argument against him is that the USVs are too small, but the US has created a new class of USVs called the Medium Displacement Unmanned Surface Vehicle (MDUSV).

The MDUSV that the US developed is called Sea Hunter the Chinese have already made their own copy of it.

The Sea Hunter MDUSV was made for Anti-submarine warfare, it has a displacement of 135 tons and a length of 40 meters, has 30 -90 day endurance and can withstand sea state 5.

From what I can dig up it cost US $20 million to develop, and a sister ship is being built for $35.5 million.

Chinese Clone has a displacement of 200 tons and a length of 46 meters, it can travel at 20 knots or more and can withstand sea state 6.

It seems that the big boys are starting to use large unmanned ships as a force multiplier, Türkiye use the knowledge from the USV to build it's own MDUSVs, that way Türkiye can get away with not building additional frigate.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...yet-at-chinas-sea-hunter-drone-ship-knock-off