TR Propulsion Systems

[Bogeyman]

Do we have any news about Gezgin?

Rear Admiral (LH) Timur YILMAZ "We will soon see that we are firing ATMACA and GEZGİN G/ Ms from our submarines."

https://www.defenceturkey.com/files/issues/DT_128_DzKK.pdf

 

[BaburKhan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771966188660183437

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771969873796575619

 

[Samba]

In technical and technological terms, how different is it to produce a turbofan engine than a turbojet one?

 

[Zafer]

In technical and technological terms, how different is it to produce a turbofan engine than a turbojet one?

3 -8 times as difficult; your power turbine needs to generate enough power to drive both the fan and the compressor which means 2 or 3 concentric shafts and a hotter running engine. You also need 2-3 sleeves to separate gas streams. There are various degrees of complexity to turbofan engines as there are more components and aspects of engines to deal with. Kale missile turbofan and TF35000 engine by TR-Motor are the simplest and the most complex turbofan engines Türkiye is making.

 

[zio]

Arat is turbojet engine

 

[Zafer]

Arat is turbojet engine

Arat is the name for Gezgin missile and Gezgin would best be equipped with a turbofan engine but they chose to squeeze in another turbojet instead of making a turbofan in time, rendering the turbofan engine an engine for future missiles.

 

[Shtr]

Kale Arge also started Turbo Fan motors at 2023. Their design phase is in prorgress. I expect in a few years we see some advances in the field of turbo fan designs.

 

[uçuyorum]

Yep as far as we know ARAT is turbojet and will power gezgin. If we want tomahawk ranges, we will probably have to go through a few iterations of this.

 

[TheInsider]

I expect both turbojet and turbofan versions of the Arat engine to be developed. The advanced prototype of the turbojet version will probably appear next year. We might see a mock-up or design picture this year.

 

[Zafer]

I have to rightfully make an insertion as this point. When the TJ3200 engine was being worked on I had started learning how to sketch 3D and sketched a TJ3200 equivalent engine. At a trade-show when I saw the Kale team engineers I mentioned my design and what pressure ratio it would provide but the engineer was skeptical and said it was excessive. My design had one more stage than the Kale engine and provided 20% more pressure. Turns out the Arat jet engine is doing exactly the same thing adding one more stage and extending the length. So they had to make the lesser one before they make the better one.

 

[Profchaos]

I have to rightfully make an insertion as this point. When the TJ3200 engine was being worked on I had started learning how to sketch 3D and sketched a TJ3200 equivalent engine. At a trade-show when I saw the Kale team engineers I mentioned my design and what pressure ratio it would provide but the engineer was skeptical and said it was excessive. My design had one more stage than the Kale engine and provided 20% more pressure. Turns out the Arat jet engine is doing exactly the same thing adding one more stage and extending the length. So they had to make the lesser one before they make the better one.

I logged in to the account after maybe 6 months so that i can laugh at this comment outloud

 

[Zafer]

I logged in to the account after maybe 6 months so that i can laugh at this comment outloud

What is wrong with you?

 

[Profchaos]

What is wrong with you?

I was gonna ask the same

 

[Zafer]

I was gonna ask the same

What's your point, before I start ignoring you.

 

[DBdev]

Turbofan missiles are efficient and gets you further with same amount of fuel but they are the slowest jet engines.

Slow means easy to shoot down. World is moving away from subsonic missiles. America tried staying subsonic with STEALTH but even they are focusing on hypersonic. For one you can't fire a non heat shielded subsonic cruise missile from a hypersonic flying 6th or 7th gen aircraft. So any propulsion tech it is not hypersonic is a dead end and a bad investment for the future.

At least invest in easy to build, store solid fuel hypersonic glider missiles. Arm all your submarines and ships with dozens of laser proof, heat tile covered, hypersonic missiles that can hit moving targets. Who is going to mess with us if we choose to do that instead of current subsonic silliness?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Turbofan missiles are efficient and gets you further with same amount of fuel but they are the slowest jet engines.

Slow means easy to shoot down. World is moving away from subsonic missiles. America tried staying subsonic with STEALTH but even they are focusing on hypersonic. For one you can't fire a non heat shielded subsonic cruise missile from a hypersonic flying 6th or 7th gen aircraft. So any propulsion tech it is not hypersonic is a dead end and a bad investment for the future.

At least invest in easy to build, store solid fuel hypersonic glider missiles. Arm all your submarines and ships with dozens of laser proof, heat tile covered, hypersonic missiles that can hit moving targets. Who is going to mess with us if we choose to do that instead of current subsonic silliness?

There are merits to what you say. However you can not rule out the use of subsonic missiles either. Neither should you call it “silliness”.

War is governed by and is a matter of sustainability, skill and managing economics of battlefield.

A hypersonic missile like ARRW will cost 15 to 18 million dollars a piece.

CBO Estimates $15-18 Million Cost Per ARRW Hypersonic Missile | Air & Space Forces Magazine

A report from the Congressional Budget Office offered estimates for different Air Force and Army programs and the cost per hypersonic missile.

www.airandspaceforces.com

If you are not carrying a nuclear warhead, it is false economy to fire a hypersonic glide vehicle/missile over a thousand kilometres, unless you are aiming to sink a carrier.

We have even seen in latest news the claims of the much advertised, and estimated at 10+ million dollar a piece Zircon missile being shot down in Ukraine. So they are not infallible either.

Every piece of weapon has a use in a specific situation. Much acclaimed Storm Shadow missiles have faltered as well.
There were news earlier last year that western airforces like RAF were contemplating purchasing supersonic Rampage missiles (Israeli version of TRG300 artillery rockets fired from air) at a fraction of the cost of a Storm Shadow to take out enemy targets.

A sea skimming subsonic missile may only be visible to enemy radars in the last 80-90 seconds. Yet a terrain hugging subsonic cruise missile may not be visible to enemy radars until the last 20-30 seconds due to geographic camouflage it utilises.
So you use them accordingly.
We have subsonic sea skimming Atmaca and we have Stealthy SOM-J and SOM-C (under development) to hit sea targets. Then we have “unverified“ news of Typhoon that can travel at hypersonic speeds and hit moving sea targets.
All three have case specific attack envelopes that they utilise. It all depends on what assets of enemy you are targeting to destroy.

 

[Oublious]

 

[BaburKhan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1776205419356020738

 

[DBdev]

Turbofan missiles are efficient and gets you further with same amount of fuel but they are the slowest jet engines.

Slow means easy to shoot down. World is moving away from subsonic missiles. America tried staying subsonic with STEALTH but even they are focusing on hypersonic. For one you can't fire a non heat shielded subsonic cruise missile from a hypersonic flying 6th or 7th gen aircraft. So any propulsion tech it is not hypersonic is a dead end and a bad investment for the future.

At least invest in easy to build, store solid fuel hypersonic glider missiles. Arm all your submarines and ships with dozens of laser proof, heat tile covered, hypersonic missiles that can hit moving targets. Who is going to mess with us if we choose to do that instead of current subsonic silliness?

As I said, subsonic silliness has no future. It is already dead. The proof is in the pudding. The only weapons that were effective against Israel were the hypersonic ones. The rest was just a huge pile of expensive trash. 'Silliness' was too polite a term; they were just utter trash against good Western air defense tactics. The Greece-Türkiye situation wouldn't be any different from the Israel-Iran faceoff due to the strong Western support in both cases.

 

[Merzifonlu]

BTW, I think a company other than TEI needs to develop a turboprop engine using the core of the TS-1400 engine. For example Kale. We never know when the Canadians will be bullshitting again. It is unthinkable for Akıncı to remain without an engine.