TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[No Name]

Yes.

Doesn't the T129 ATAK cover all of Turkey's needs?

TAI already has too much on its plate without including a helicopter into the mix.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

Doesn't the T129 ATAK cover all of Turkey's needs?

TAI already has too much on its plate without including a helicopter into the mix.

T-129 is fine but it lacks the firepower and protection of a heavy attack helicopter. T-929s would play a key role in amphibious assaults as they can carry a lot more missiles. Think of it this way. The T-129 is good for quick anti-terror strikes in the mountains. Meanwhile, the T-929 is more suitable for peer warfare; Launching cruise missiles, keeping the coast safe during landings, targeting any remaining strongholds with precision after the primary air campaign is complete. Ideally you want something that is PACKED with an assortment of different weapons for this role.

I still think that we should accelerate work on our unmanned helicopter concepts. Because as useful as helicopters are, they are deathtraps.

 

[Anmdt]

Unbelievable. This was one of the worst cock ups from TAI and they are sharing a video of it? Just let people forget about it until you are truly ready to show it again ffs.

Celebrating birthday of a prematurely born-dead project.

 

[Zafer]

T-929 is a technology demonstrator developed in a short timeframe. TAI didn't go through a lot of trouble making one. But the data learned from making it is invaluable. The project only lacks an engine and once an engine is available it can go to production quickly. I think when TEI or TR-Motor have an empty schedule to accommodate a TS3000 project they can go for one and they can start a TP3000 project along with it as they are very similar. Totally worthwhile doing it.

 

[Pinco Pallino]

The project only lacks an engine and once an engine is available it can go to production quickly.

Going into production "quickly" when an engine is available means the development has already been completed, the design has been frozen (which can't be done without an engine), the production line has been established and the supply chain has been successfully set up.

From what I'm reading on these forum pages, the ATAK 2 project development at this stage is clearly years away from completion, and significanlty further away from production.

 

[Zafer]

Going into production "quickly" when an engine is available means the development has already been completed, the design has been frozen (which can't be done without an engine), the production line has been established and the supply chain has been successfully set up.

From what I'm reading on these forum pages, the ATAK 2 project development at this stage is clearly years away from completion, and significanlty further away from production.

How quickly do you want it.

 

[Pinco Pallino]

I don't know. My opinion doesn't matter in any case.

The correct question should be "how quickly do the Turkish Armed Forces want it?". And I know that currently there really isn't a certain answer.

 

[Anmdt]

T-929 is a technology demonstrator developed in a short timeframe. TAI didn't go through a lot of trouble making one. But the data learned from making it is invaluable. The project only lacks an engine and once an engine is available it can go to production quickly. I think when TEI or TR-Motor have an empty schedule to accommodate a TS3000 project they can go for one and they can start a TP3000 project along with it as they are very similar. Totally worthwhile doing it.

Well no, actually Navy demands it, a platform sharing the same drive train with the Multi Role helicopter platform. And TAI doesn't seem to spare enough resources for Navy-related programmes (like they did with Rotor UAV - G- IHA and so on). Can't blame them either, they have a lot to do in a short time span with limited resources. But been waiting G-IHA for more than a decade already and haven't seen much.

 

[Zafer]

Well no, actually Navy demands it, a platform sharing the same drive train with the Multi Role helicopter platform. And TAI doesn't seem to spare enough resources for Navy-related programmes (like they did with Rotor UAV - G- IHA and so on). Can't blame them either, they have a lot to do in a short time span with limited resources. But been waiting G-IHA for more than a decade already and haven't seen much.

RİHA was the name AFAIK, Vestel was tasked with it. If Baykar's Kalkan VTOL UAV is up to the task then the problem is already solved. I believe Baykar will make larger versions of Kalkan as more powerful motors and engines become available.

 

[YeşilVatan]

T-129 is fine but it lacks the firepower and protection of a heavy attack helicopter. T-929s would play a key role in amphibious assaults as they can carry a lot more missiles. Think of it this way. The T-129 is good for quick anti-terror strikes in the mountains. Meanwhile, the T-929 is more suitable for peer warfare; Launching cruise missiles, keeping the coast safe during landings, targeting any remaining strongholds with precision after the primary air campaign is complete. Ideally you want something that is PACKED with an assortment of different weapons for this role.

I still think that we should accelerate work on our unmanned helicopter concepts. Because as useful as helicopters are, they are deathtraps.

I thought about how much an unmanned helicopter can add value by mission type, excluding small drones (FPVs and such).

1. Attack helicopter missions as they are in 2024 would be way complicated because of the technical limitations (lag) and required computational power for targeting (automation). With the advances in AI this might be mitigated and a nimble, mostly anti-infantry car sized UAV can be produced. I don't see a lumbering 10 ton behemoth unmanned helicopter having any success against even the militias, if we consider the proliferation of MANPADS. This is mostly because of the cost factor.
2. Relay duty is basically pointless. Normally a fixed wing UAV that's flying outside the range of MANPADS and even short range AA will be able to do the job. And it would be much more effective because of its longer flight hours. Maybe in some instances where EW is a factor, there might be a benefit to having a relay equipment closer but I doubt it.
3. Indirect fire support is a weird one, because essentially you can achieve much with network centric warfare. The operators can bring much shorter range missiles near the target. This would in theory serve to concentrate more firepower against enemy targets because shorter range weapons would come into play. Unmanned helicopters can "fly under the radar" of capable enemy air defense and fire missiles from a much closer distance. But then you need to avoid short range AA. Especially considering the cost of payload, is it worth it? I don't think so.
4. Recon is somewhat pointless, because of the limited flight time and susceptibility to MANPADS. Whatever reconnaisance you get from an unmanned helicopter, you would get a better one from fixed-wing UAVs and FPV drones.
5. Supply delivery is the type of mission unmanned helicopters will excel at. It would greatly contribute to the streamlining of logistics and maybe even medevac.
6. Decoy. I think this is one underappreciated and unexpected role unmanned helicopters will have. Baciscally, the enemy will have to decide; try to destroy the decoy, expending munitions and reveal AA positions, or just let it go and hope it was a dud. Creating deoys out of decomissioned UAV parts, especially worn-out engines would also be a very economical use of old equipment.

And the catch is, nearly all of those instances are circumstantial.

All in all, I think 3 types of rotary-wing UAVs will appear in the next 10-15 years.

1. Hunter-killers: Armed primarily with an automatic grenade launcher, or a small number of anti-armor missiles, these small unmanned helicopters would utilize swarm tactics and automation. They will be used in tandem with relay UAVs. The main sticking point for hunter-killer drones would be manpower conservation for advanced militaries. When operating in an environment of complete air domination and very little AA, they would dominate non-urban environments. Plus, easily mass produced. This is the kind of hardware that will completely phase out militias in a rural environment. TB2 was the start, this will be the end. A big bonus for these kind of drones would be aerial retrievability, i.e. deploy and recollect from another flying vehicle.
2. Logistics UAVs: Simple unmanned helicopters utilized for transportation of people and things. Greatly enhance logistics, used to transport personnel with improvements in the future. The most important of the three IMO.
3. Decoy/kamikaze: Various rotary-wing drones built from repurposed parts of decomissioned military vehicles. May be strapped with explosives depending on the strength of the engine. Use them for probing, aid with SEAD/DEAD etc. A modular EW resistant data transfer system would be required for this to be streamlined. Also needs to be used together with other sensor systems because you can't put expensive stuff on those.

Other roles will be fulfilled with fixed wing UAVs.

This is my amateur opinion though.

 

[Anmdt]

RİHA was the name AFAIK, Vestel was tasked with it. If Baykar's Kalkan VTOL UAV is up to the task then the problem is already solved. I believe Baykar will make larger versions of Kalkan as more powerful motors and engines become available.

"G-IHA" is not merely R-IHA and Vestel was tasked with catapult launched UAV not R-IHA.

Kalkan, BAHA whatever in such shape and in such manner of "VTOL" is not navy compliant they won't be able to land or take off even at the slightest wind and gust at sea. Best use is when the weather is calm and to show-off at exercises. Many more has done it before Baykar and none has been mentioned this much.

 

[Zafer]

"G-IHA" is not merely R-IHA and Vestel was tasked with catapult launched UAV not R-IHA.

Kalkan, BAHA whatever in such shape and in such manner of "VTOL" is not navy compliant they won't be able to land or take off even at the slightest wind and gust at sea. Best use is when the weather is calm and to show-off at exercises. Many more has done it before Baykar and none has been mentioned this much.

Baykar's came with a Turkish made engine and the support of thousands employees behind it for a difference. I am not sure how Kalkan will perform but I have seen small drones performing perfectly in gale force winds.

 

[Anmdt]

Baykar's came with a Turkish made engine and the support of thousands employees behind it for a difference. I am not sure how Kalkan will perform but I have seen small drones performing perfectly in gale force winds.

Definitely not a thousand, only a fraction of engineers work on Kalkan, like TAI sometimes spare a few. And working with a thousand engineers do not make a project magical thing to beat physics. It is about policy makers.

 

[Zafer]

Definitely not a thousand, only a fraction of engineers work on Kalkan, like TAI sometimes spare a few. And working with a thousand engineers do not make a project magical thing to beat physics. It is about policy makers.

Those few engineers have the backing of thousands when they think they are lacking in their efforts. They also use the work of engineers that went into the subsystems they are using on that system. The resulting system would not be possible without the works of engineers that made the components that goes into their product.

Kalkan having those wings will not be as agile as smaller multicopter drones but many of ships' operations are interrupted in high sea conditions and not alone drones. For inoperable condition for Kalkan smaller multirotor drones made by Aselsan and others can be utilized. It is about having the capability to cover all the bases with different tools if not with one magic bullet.

 

[Anmdt]

Those few engineers have the backing of thousands when they think they are lacking in their efforts. They also use the work of engineers that went into the subsystems they are using on that system. The resulting system would not be possible without the works of engineers that made the components that goes into their product.

Kalkan having those wings will not be as agile as smaller multicopter drones but many of ships' operations are interrupted in high sea conditions and not alone drones. For inoperable condition for Kalkan smaller multirotor drones made by Aselsan and others can be utilized. It is about having the capability to cover all the bases with different tools if not with one magic bullet.

In an ideal company and world, yes.
When it is bloated like TAI and recently Baykar, no.
What is high sea conditions to you? These kind of drones won't last sea state 2, a light breeze for most mariners.
I don't see Kalkan, Baha or any other that same old VTOLs matching this with electric lift rotors during take off or landing.

CAMCOPTER® S-100 - Schiebel Elektronische Geräte

schiebel.net

+ 25 knots at landing deck, higher than sea state 3.

All we need to do in 10 years;
A schiebel S100 like family of RIHA
A scaneagle like family of catapult launched UAV

I don't want to say that we can't or don't have resources for that, and this leaves only one last option.

 

[Zafer]

In an ideal company and world, yes.
When it is bloated like TAI and recently Baykar, no.
What is high sea conditions to you? These kind of drones won't last sea state 2, a light breeze for most mariners.
I don't see Kalkan, Baha or any other that same old VTOLs matching this with electric lift rotors during take off or landing.

CAMCOPTER® S-100 - Schiebel Elektronische Geräte

schiebel.net

+ 25 knots at landing deck, higher than sea state 3.

All we need to do in 10 years;
A schiebel S100 like family of RIHA
A scaneagle like family of catapult launched UAV

I don't want to say that we can't or don't have resources for that, and this leaves only one last option.

In the VTOL urban air mobility industry people were skeptic that multicopters wouldn't stand a chance in adverse weather conditions but their view changed after they saw the video where a sailor lets go of a small drone from his hand out the door of a sail boat where the drone flies high, takes video of the boat from above and comes back in where the sailor catches the drone at the door. It is a weather where you don't want to step out the door to the deck. I couldn't find the video on the net with a quick look.

 

[boredaf]

In an ideal company and world, yes.
When it is bloated like TAI and recently Baykar, no.
What is high sea conditions to you? These kind of drones won't last sea state 2, a light breeze for most mariners.
I don't see Kalkan, Baha or any other that same old VTOLs matching this with electric lift rotors during take off or landing.

CAMCOPTER® S-100 - Schiebel Elektronische Geräte

schiebel.net

+ 25 knots at landing deck, higher than sea state 3.

All we need to do in 10 years;
A schiebel S100 like family of RIHA
A scaneagle like family of catapult launched UAV

I don't want to say that we can't or don't have resources for that, and this leaves only one last option.

Mate, you're cosplaying Sisyphus arguing with him, you'll never roll that boulder over that hill.

 

[Zafer]

Larger shipbourne helicopter drones became useless before they even became useful for observation purposes.

 

[Anmdt]

In the VTOL urban air mobility industry people were skeptic that multicopters wouldn't stand a chance in adverse weather conditions but their view changed after they saw the video where a sailor lets go of a small drone from his hand out the door of a sail boat where the drone flies high, takes video of the boat from above and comes back in where the sailor catches the drone at the door. It is a weather where you don't want to step out the door to the deck. I couldn't find the video on the net with a quick look.

Those quadcopters are "helicopter" in a sense, BAHA, KALKAN is not VTOL in the same way, they both have a huge wing area that would lead platform to tip over far greater than those VTOL blades can compensate, in case of a 25 kts cross wind.

Larger shipbourne helicopter drones became useless before they even became useful for observation purposes.

S100 is tiny I would say even more compact than Kalkan or BAHA.:

Scaneagle, launched with catapult, retrieved with a simple setup:

Our industry failed to provide something such particularly because some decision makers have not thought of time being right until certain actors free their hands of certain show-business. And those who can develop it have gone off the easy way, avoided cumbersome engineering processes and R&D.

 

[Zafer]

Electric propulsion only recently became capable of supporting useful loads for justifiable duration.

You need to be able to put together best of everything to make a compelling product.

• domestic fuel injected piston engine for long endurance
• domestic high zoom camera for high quality visuals

are prerequisites for a high quality product

Looking at Bayraktar Kalkan DİHA specs one can find everything desirable with such a product. The only thing that needs to be proven on the field remains to be its weather resilience. If it proves to be usable in a wide range of use cases it will be a fantastic solution to VTOL needs of the navy and possibly other users worldwide. Also with the prospects of larger payload capacities in the future.

https://baykartech.com/tr/uav/bayraktar-diha/