TR Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

[Rooxbar]

Supplicant!!! Look at operation Atilla and compare that to Annan plan and you'll see what supplicant means. And that was in the 70s, what with all the global economic recession and the rest of it. The begging that's been going on for f16s which is due to the purge of the secular foreign policy actors and "monşers" who knew the ins and outs of the U.S. political system and how to exploit it is also another great sign compared to the amount of technology transfer we got when we forced them to agree to domestic production, along with the deal we got out of them via the negotiations to be partner in f-35 consortium which started in 1997 and culminated in 2002 compared to how we got kicked out and couldn't do zilch about it, along with how they've been holding every single refugee who wants to go to EU inside our country paying pennies for every dollar of our resources which they gobble up, along with this:

 

[IC3M@N FX]

@Asena_great It's just too long for me why can't you reduce it to a minimum instead of posting or telling the complete story here. Above all, I don't know if you're not cherry picking what you're doing....z.b bending the story without having watched every single video or accusing you of lying or being untruthful, I must honestly admit it's too exhausting for me to read it all.

So my question is, when you compare the past with the countless coups the country has experienced, has there ever been a benefit for the people and the country? Were the people better off after the economy was driven to the wall several times when 1 German Mark was worth 1000000 Lira? Where children sold Sümit & Cola at 10 p.m. in long-distance bus stations in torn T-shirts and plastic shoes when there were hardly any airports to East Anatolia.
Of course there is still poverty in Turkey today, but in my time I had almost only seen these situations.
There was only rich or poor, the middle class was non-existent like in many third world countries.

I also knew this Turkey in the 80-90s where there was no infrastructure, no proper medical care anywhere in Turkey, and the restaurants and stores sold expired food, where bus rest stops stank of shit because they hadn't cleaned their toilets for eons because there was no quality standard or self-esteem to pass this on to other people.
I remember when I was on vacation in my childhood, there was so well no Turkey vacation where I had no stomach virus these memories firmly anchored with me.

I want to be honest, I am not interested in what Erdogan and his family may be doing, or embezzling money, or practicing nepotism! Because I know the next politician who comes to power will do exactly the same.
It has been done in the past, it is being done in the present and it will be done in the future.

For me, only tangible things are important!
What he do in his term of office:

Has the quality of life of the people in the country been improved compared to before in the general population? Yes

Has the air, train and bus infrastructure been improved? Yes

Would medical care be improved across the board? Yes

Has the energy infrastructure been improved? Yes

Has the technology in the country been improved both in the industry & defense industry and most recently also for the civilian population through synergies? Yes

Have standards been set for food regulations in stores and healthcare in restaurants? Yes

As I said, Erdogan is no saint and there are many things he does wrong, but no one can deny his successes!

 

[Asena_great]

It's just too long for me why can't you reduce it to a minimum instead of posting or telling the complete story here.

dede i have nothing else to tell you and in my opinion your right to vote need to be revoked.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

dede i have nothing else to tell you and in my opinion your right to vote need to be revoked.

I am 42 years old and far from Dede, there are many people like me who know the past and the present, and I am glad that many people think rationally. If I were an American, I would vote for Trump. I just want to see people in government who can act and make a difference.
Previous governments have had their chance and have failed miserably. For me, the debate about whether Erdogan is good or bad is also exhausting. If you can do better, then you should stand for election and convince people that you can do better and help all people in Turkey with different interest groups and ethnicities. Good luck...... because you will always be the asshole of one interest group.

 

[Zoth]

Has the air, train and bus infrastructure been improved? Yes

Would medical care be improved across the board? Yes

Has the energy infrastructure been improved? Yes

Has the technology in the country been improved both in the industry & defense industry and most recently also for the civilian population through synergies? Yes

Have standards been set for food regulations in stores and healthcare in restaurants? Yes

By just reading this part i can tell that this friend has not lived in Turkey for a very long time, i'm not trying to personally target him but living in Turkey as a Turk can be considered one of the worst fates. A typical normal Turkish person dosn't even have a free healthcare compared to a syrian refugee in damn Turkey.

I won't even mention the food regulation part, this is just totally wrong.


Has those points you mentioned improved? Yes, but at what cost? Making a bridge that costs 4x times the amount that would normally cost, making it also passenger guaranteed that burdens the daily person even more with taxes and costs.

Again, at what cost?

 

[Rooxbar]

@Asena_great Were the people better off after the economy was driven to the wall several times when 1 German Mark was worth 1000000 Lira?

That's not how currencies work btw, the brute numbers tell us nothing; it's like saying 10000 mm is bigger than 5 inches. 46 Mauritian Rupee is 1 dollar, while 154 Japanese Yen is also one dollar, but obviously the bigger number, Japanese Yen in this case, is not the worse one, although its nominal value is lower than the Mauritian one.

It's about average income, rate of minimum wage workers, inflation, purchasing power, circulating supply, etc.; it's relative. You can have a currency (let's call it Lorin) with exchange rate of 1 billion Lorin to 1 dollar but the people in the country earn on average 10k billion Lorens a month which makes it 10k dollars, if it's with comparable inflation with the world average that would make it a very strong currency due to the purchasing power of the amount of it in circulation.

 

[Zoth]

That's not how currencies work btw, the brute numbers tell us nothing, it's like saying 10000 mm is bigger than 5 inches. 46 Mauritian Rupee is 1 dollar, while 154 Japanese Yen is also one dollar, but obviously the bigger number is not the worse one. It's about average income, rate of minimum wage workers, inflation, purchasing power; it's relative.

Just to add to this very true take, what's more important is the stability of the currency(inflation/deflation), when the currency is very unstable, inland market has hard time on setting the real prices, which what they end up doing is overpricing just so they can compensate against very unstable currency( for the inflation in our case).

 

[Rooxbar]

Just to add to this very true take, what's more important is the stability of the currency(inflation/deflation), when the currency is very unstable, inland market has hard time on setting the real prices, which what they end up doing is overpricing just so they can compensate against very unstable currency( for the inflation in our case).

Just a side note, the word "take", used in this sense, along with the words "entrepreneur" and "STEM" are my least favourite words. Interestingly "enterprise" is one of my favourites.

 

[Iskander]

Washington insists on the extradition of Hamas members if they are really in Turkey, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller said at a briefing.

"I've seen reports that some of the Hamas leadership that was in Doha has now moved to Turkey," he said. "We don't believe that the leaders of a brutal terrorist organization should live comfortably anywhere, ... some of these individuals have been accused by the United States for a long time [of committing various crimes]. We believe that they should be handed over to the United States."

The Americans seem to have found an excellent excuse to refuse Turkey supplies ... already F16.
Hamas will now play the role of the S400

Американцы потребуют у Турции хамасовцев

haqqin.az

 

[Ryder]

Washington insists on the extradition of Hamas members if they are really in Turkey, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller said at a briefing.

"I've seen reports that some of the Hamas leadership that was in Doha has now moved to Turkey," he said. "We don't believe that the leaders of a brutal terrorist organization should live comfortably anywhere, ... some of these individuals have been accused by the United States for a long time [of committing various crimes]. We believe that they should be handed over to the United States."

The Americans seem to have found an excellent excuse to refuse Turkey supplies ... already F16.
Hamas will now play the role of the S400

Американцы потребуют у Турции хамасовцев

haqqin.az

Hamas stayed in Qatar for a decade or so. I never heard of the USA screeching about sanctions or embargoes on Qatar.

 

[Zoth]

Hamas stayed in Qatar for a decade or so. I never heard of the USA screeching about sanctions or embargoes on Qatar.

At this point we shouldn't really care to be totally honest, the world is not unipolar anymore, they don't have the balls to fully sanction us, even if they do something this crazy, they should be ready to fully lose us at this rate.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Washington insists on the extradition of Hamas members if they are really in Turkey, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller said at a briefing.

"I've seen reports that some of the Hamas leadership that was in Doha has now moved to Turkey," he said. "We don't believe that the leaders of a brutal terrorist organization should live comfortably anywhere, ... some of these individuals have been accused by the United States for a long time [of committing various crimes]. We believe that they should be handed over to the United States."

The Americans seem to have found an excellent excuse to refuse Turkey supplies ... already F16.
Hamas will now play the role of the S400

Американцы потребуют у Турции хамасовцев

haqqin.az

s400 was typical terrible islamist style politics. They probably thought both russia and the usa is supporting my enemies in sryia, if i buy s400, Russia will show me favours, while the Americans seeing i'm moving towards Russia they will relent on their support for greater middle east. In reality all that happened is that once they went russian they encouraged the americans to screw us, while the russians seeing we lost leverage with the americans bent us over harder. S400 was so dumb, a proper belly dancer style of politics that has been typical of ak party.

However once they booted these loser islamists from f35 and humilated them in front of the entire world, they had to hold course. What they could not do is go back begging the americans. Because by doing that, you basically told them that their strategy to bully and humiliate Islamic civilisation worked. Guess what, they will keep doing it.

Whichever short-sighted moron thought to buy russian shit, had to do so with the full acceptance that this may be the point we never buy american again. But ofcourse these belly dancers didn't think of that. But don't worry an airport or two got built in the southeast so the success cannot be refuted.

Middle east is finished, its just a matter of time when the entire region becomes the new Palestine.

 

[Asena_great]

Washington insists on the extradition of Hamas members if they are really in Turkey, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller said at a briefing.

"I've seen reports that some of the Hamas leadership that was in Doha has now moved to Turkey," he said. "We don't believe that the leaders of a brutal terrorist organization should live comfortably anywhere, ... some of these individuals have been accused by the United States for a long time [of committing various crimes]. We believe that they should be handed over to the United States."

The Americans seem to have found an excellent excuse to refuse Turkey supplies ... already F16.
Hamas will now play the role of the S400

Американцы потребуют у Турции хамасовцев

haqqin.az

sure why not i am willing to handover hamas leaders to US in exchange i have a list of fetöcu including Ünal Tatar the former employee in TÜBİTAK who made forged document and evidence against army and play a key role in opening of kozmik oda

he is currently a professor in american university and tech cyber security

Unal Tatar | University at Albany

View contact information for Unal Tatar, Assistant Professor, Cybersecurity Department at the University at Albany. View phone number and email address for Unal Tatar.

www.albany.edu

the link above is his page

 

[Dennixtoue]

Washington insists on the extradition of Hamas members if they are really in Turkey, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller said at a briefing.

"I've seen reports that some of the Hamas leadership that was in Doha has now moved to Turkey," he said. "We don't believe that the leaders of a brutal terrorist organization should live comfortably anywhere, ... some of these individuals have been accused by the United States for a long time [of committing various crimes]. We believe that they should be handed over to the United States."

The Americans seem to have found an excellent excuse to refuse Turkey supplies ... already F16.
Hamas will now play the role of the S400

Американцы потребуют у Турции хамасовцев

haqqin.az

This is America State Department hypocrites, the indiscriminate slaughter of Afghans and Iraqis, the slaughter of defenseless children by Washington, all because of the Zionist politicalin Washington, all serial killers who support colossal genocide committed by the hands of Israel. The Jews of America who commit war crimes around the world, yes, the collaborators to traitors of America should be handed over to us for trial.

 

[Asena_great]

the collaborators to traitors of America should be handed over to us for trial.

they didn't done anything to our people so we don't give a fuck however those who did wrong our people, killed our generals in prison as well as 848 intelligent agent are in the US, the Fetullah gulen's tarikat members. how interesting that you don't give a fuck about our people and fetö but you do care about Palestinians and willing to cannon fodder our country and its interest for their sake. hizbut tahrir did a number on you. if you feel that you are part of ummah and not turkish nation why dont you return your citizenship ??

 

[IC3M@N FX]

s400 was typical terrible islamist style politics. They probably thought both russia and the usa is supporting my enemies in sryia, if i buy s400, Russia will show me favours, while the Americans seeing i'm moving towards Russia they will relent on their support for greater middle east. In reality all that happened is that once they went russian they encouraged the americans to screw us, while the russians seeing we lost leverage with the americans bent us over harder. S400 was so dumb, a proper belly dancer style of politics that has been typical of ak party.

However once they booted these loser islamists from f35 and humilated them in front of the entire world, they had to hold course. What they could not do is go back begging the americans. Because by doing that, you basically told them that their strategy to bully and humiliate Islamic civilisation worked. Guess what, they will keep doing it.

Whichever short-sighted moron thought to buy russian shit, had to do so with the full acceptance that this may be the point we never buy american again. But ofcourse these belly dancers didn't think of that. But don't worry an airport or two got built in the southeast so the success cannot be refuted.

Middle east is finished, its just a matter of time when the entire region becomes the new Palestine.

Do you even know what an Islamist is? I am not an absolute fan of AKP and Erdogan but they are definitely not Islamists, otherwise we would already have Afghanistan conditions here.
Also in the AKP/MHP party, women have very high ranks in politics, military, and health care and industry and military industry. This is unimaginable in an Ultra Islamist government.
AKP is an arch conservative party like most Republicans in the USA, but nevertheless I think more of him and his party than the other idiots from CHP, IYI Party or Hüda Par or the undercover terror party DEM.
The AKP/MHP has been in power for more than 20 years, women still don't all wear headscarves, that's a voluntary decision, and they all still wear very short miniskirts if they want to, provided they can bear the oblique looks of horny fools they attract in Turkey.
On the beach most women and no I'm not talking about foreign vacationers but Turkish women also wear thongs and also men and women they still drink in restaurants and Cafés ect.
So we are still a long way from an ultra-Islamic transformation and the broad base of the population doesn't want that either, and AKP/MHP dont want and can't change it either, otherwise they would already have this transformation.

The s400 deal necessary or not Turkey needed long range defense systems, it is not Turkey's fault if they did not get it from the USA. Then one should rather question the partnership attitude of the USA. This eternal mistrust is also just a consequence of several steps and is not completly Türkiyes fault. According to the motto from US Government we don't give you PATRIOTS but you are not allowed to buy other systems either...so one thing leads to another.
The USA thinks the PKK/YPG aka SDF are freedom fighters ok then for us the HAMAS are also freedom fighters the game can also be played in pairs. Using a terrorist organization as a tool for power projection.

 

[Iskander]

Do you even know what an Islamist is? I am not an absolute fan of AKP and Erdogan but they are definitely not Islamists, otherwise we would already have Afghanistan conditions here.
Also in the AKP/MHP party, women have very high ranks in politics, military, and health care and industry and military industry. This is unimaginable in an Ultra Islamist government.
AKP is an arch conservative party like most Republicans in the USA, but nevertheless I think more of him and his party than the other idiots from CHP, IYI Party or Hüda Par or the undercover terror party DEM.
The AKP/MHP has been in power for more than 20 years, women still don't all wear headscarves, that's a voluntary decision, and they all still wear very short miniskirts if they want to, provided they can bear the oblique looks of horny fools they attract in Turkey.
On the beach most women and no I'm not talking about foreign vacationers but Turkish women also wear thongs and also men and women they still drink in restaurants and Cafés ect.
So we are still a long way from an ultra-Islamic transformation and the broad base of the population doesn't want that either, and AKP/MHP dont want and can't change it either, otherwise they would already have this transformation.

The s400 deal necessary or not Turkey needed long range defense systems, it is not Turkey's fault if they did not get it from the USA. Then one should rather question the partnership attitude of the USA. This eternal mistrust is also just a consequence of several steps and is not completly Türkiyes fault. According to the motto from US Government we don't give you PATRIOTS but you are not allowed to buy other systems either...so one thing leads to another.
The USA thinks the PKK/YPG aka SDF are freedom fighters ok then for us the HAMAS are also freedom fighters the game can also be played in pairs. Using a terrorist organization as a tool for power projection.

The AKP is an Islamist party - this cliche was invented in the West. When Erdogan did not object to the West on any issue concerning foreign policy, they praised him; during the "Arab Spring" the West even presented Erdogan's Turkey as an example to Muslim countries. But when Erdogan began to pursue a foreign policy independent from the West, they began to brand him as an Islamist, an authoritarian leader, sometimes even a dictator. Note: the German Christian Democratic Party is not a religious party, but the AKP is religious! Even in Turkey itself, mainly opposition-minded people, following the West (or rather, at the West's prompting), accuse the AKP and Erdogan personally of Islamism. At the same time, none of them apparently think to call the CDU a Christian, religious party.
This is all nonsense.
This is done specifically in order to have a pretext for putting pressure on Turkey if necessary.

 

[Rooxbar]

The AKP is an Islamist party - this cliche was invented in the West. When Erdogan did not object to the West on any issue concerning foreign policy, they praised him; during the "Arab Spring" the West even presented Erdogan's Turkey as an example to Muslim countries. But when Erdogan began to pursue a foreign policy independent from the West, they began to brand him as an Islamist, an authoritarian leader, sometimes even a dictator. Note: the German Christian Democratic Party is not a religious party, but the AKP is religious! Even in Turkey itself, mainly opposition-minded people, following the West (or rather, at the West's prompting), accuse the AKP and Erdogan personally of Islamism. At the same time, none of them apparently think to call the CDU a Christian, religious party.
This is all nonsense.

Christianity and Islam are very different religions with societies which have gone through very divergent evolutionary trajectories. In late 18th century and early 19th century almost all of the West was very religious, but Ottoman thinkers and diplomats who start commenting on European political systems contemporaneously, the likes of Mehmed Emin Efendi, Ebubekir Ratib Efendi, Ibrahim Muteferrika, and later Mustafa Reshid Pasha, Ahmed Cevdet and Namık Kemal point out as a great defect of the European monarchs and their legal systems that it's a godless system and that it's not based on "shariah"; the excessive amounts of cultural products (plays, music, festivities, novels) which, in the face of it, go against all that is Christian but is consumed by some and tolerated by most during those times is also another sign of this difference in society-wide outlook towards religion, religious law, religious text and religious authority.

Islamism is not an abstract concept borne out of a vacuum, the essence of which can be captured in its definition. It has a history and it is through the lens of this history that it's examined. Included in this history is the social classes, the ideals and cultural atmosphere from which its actors originate from, and the capacities that such a group of people has and could have had.

I can imagine a society and a historical trajectory which would have made Islamism a potent, sophisticated, shrewd and rational outlook emanating from a dynamic urban middle class Muslim culture; the world we live in is not that world.

Obviously the West has no problem with AKP's islamism, that's just a tool to propagandize and prime their population and elites to adopt hostile attitudes. If their problem was with Islamism, they wouldn't fund Saudi schools, mujahideen, gulen, akp itself and the green belt.

Our problem with Islamism and AKP, which went hand in hand with the Islamism of its allies in Gulen movement for the bigger part of their rule, is not as Hablemitoglu once said, because of the West but in spite of them, since whenever they have backed Islamists we have opposed them.