TR Land Vehicle Programs

[Khagan1923]

Checking the BMC website, they secured the order of 29 8X8 Altug with 35mm turret.

So at this point I guess the final decision has not been made and army decided to get a feedback from the field before final decision. Hopefully Pars Alpha with 35mm turret also will be produced and given to the army for field tests.

Can you post the link I was not able to find anything on their website?

Would love to know how many countries operate two types of 8x8 and 6x6.

 

[Sanchez]

Giving support variants to Alpha, while giving the mainstay IFV variant to Altuğ must be a sick joke. BMC has literally no experience in IFVs and Altuğ is yet to prove itself in the export market. Vehicles have been in tests for more than 2-3 years now. Awarding this low number of vehicles for more intensive tests in real world conditions is very much interesting.

 

[Fairon]

Can you post the link I was not able to find anything on their website?

Would love to know how many countries operate two types of 8x8 and 6x6.

BMC VE SSB ARASINDA ALTUĞ 8x8 ZIRHLI MUHAREBE ARACI İÇİN SÖZLEŞME İMZALANDI - BMC

www.bmc.com.tr

Well we are in a different position so I am not actually bothered with operating 2 types of the same vehicle. (I would be more happy replacing BMC with Otokar though)

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1893944782788890871

Says NG signed.

 

[Anmdt]

I am not writing this to defend one side or to start a discussion.
But with that logic we could say, that they actually waited for FNSS Alpha to be ready, because it was revealed last year whereas BMC Altuğ was revealed in 2021.
See, it doesn't make sense to think negative, let us all think positive.

Too optimistic in my opinion, especially when we are involved with a company that has no factory for IFV, nor produced one ever and assuming Altuğ was based another foreign design (much likely) and Altuğ was ready for show, not action in 2021. FNSS on the other hand first joined with meanline Pars and since it was delayed, they got into work and joined with Pars NG.

 

[Khagan1923]

BMC VE SSB ARASINDA ALTUĞ 8x8 ZIRHLI MUHAREBE ARACI İÇİN SÖZLEŞME İMZALANDI - BMC

www.bmc.com.tr

Well we are in a different position so I am not actually bothered with operating 2 types of the same vehicle. (I would be more happy replacing BMC with Otokar though)

Interestingly in their announcement there is no mention of further orders meanwhile FNSS announced that more orders will follow for Pars Alpha.

The total number of vehicles for this initial order will be 25 vehicles. TLF is planning to acquire over 2000 vehicles with additional orders and number of PARS ALPHA vehicles are expected to expand over time.

This I have found on savunmasanayi's website, don't know how much truth there is to it though.

Within the scope of the YNA Project, FNSS will deliver a total of 25 vehicles in 35mm Turret Armoured Combat Vehicle, Armoured Anti-Tank Vehicle, SARP Turret Armoured Vehicle and Armoured Rescue Vehicle configurations.

Acc. to Savunmasanayi website FNSS will also deliver 35mm turret equipped vehicles including to the other three already mentioned by FNSS itself.

BMC will deliver a total of 29 vehicles with 35mm turrets as part of the YNA Project.

And BMC will too deliver vehicles with 35mm turrets.


Looks like FNSS will get the majority of Variants, the article also mentions that they want to open the path for export for BMC's Altug.

Gonna guess they are giving an crumb to BMC to have their vehicle be "battle-tested" so they can advertise it to other countries and increase their chances to actually land a deal.

 

[Anmdt]

Giving support variants to Alpha, while giving the mainstay IFV variant to Altuğ must be a sick joke. BMC has literally no experience in IFVs and Altuğ is yet to prove itself in the export market. Vehicles have been in tests for more than 2-3 years now. Awarding this low number of vehicles for more intensive tests in real world conditions is very much interesting.

Ah yes that explains it all, IFV, AFV, APC whatever they call is awarded to BMC. Most likely the tracked version is being on hold since they are not ready for designing or making one.

 

[begturan]

BMC is a company with very new experience in armored vehicles, while Nurol Otokar and FNSS have much more deep-rooted experience. In this case, it is a shame that they waited for BMC and gave them the tender. Yes, it is logical for BMC to develop TTZA while waiting for the domestic power pack, but no matter what, orders should have been given according to the level of these companies entering the tender and meeting the needs.

The lion's share of APC, ACV version should definitely be given to FNSS. Otherwise, this is a disservice to our national defense industry.

 

[Anmdt]

Interestingly in their announcement there is no mention of further orders meanwhile FNSS announced that more orders will follow for Pars Alpha.




This I have found on savunmasanayi's website, don't know how much truth there is to it though.



Acc. to Savunmasanayi website FNSS will also deliver 35mm turret equipped vehicles including to the other three already mentioned by FNSS itself.



And BMC will too deliver vehicles with 35mm turrets.


Looks like FNSS will get the majority of Variants, the article also mentions that they want to open the path for export for BMC's Altug.

Gonna guess they are giving an crumb to BMC to have their vehicle be "battle-tested" so they can advertise it to other countries and increase their chances to actually land a deal.

Majority of variants is pain in the ass situation, having production line different variants and not unifying logistics of factory of production line, on the other hand BMC gets creme de la creme single kind orders. This always has been such, FNSS won the projects that require customization, itsy bitsy few units in different configurations based on the same design.

 

[Khagan1923]

Majority of variants is pain in the ass situation, having production line different variants and not unifying logistics of factory of production line, on the other hand BMC gets creme de la creme single kind orders. This always has been such, FNSS won the projects that require customization, itsy bitsy few units in different configurations based on the same design.

I honestly don't know. We already know from credible sources that the current owner, Tosyali, of BMC never wanted it and was forced to take it over and is trying to get rid of it even right now. We know it is bleeding money and personell. The article mentions start of production as 2027.

It is clear that the clear-cut winner of the tender is Pars Alpha, wouldn't even suprise me if Altug make it to 2nd place.

I think we aren't gonna see a follow-up order for Altug in the future, another theory might be that Korhan or SARP 100/35mm with its new name, has not yet been integrated onto Pars Alpha and to bridge the gap they ordered Altug. This way BMC can advertise Altug as TLF operated, "battle-tested" and they get their crumb of the money to stop a bit of the bleeding.

Let's see like I said I would be very surpised to see follow-up orders for Altug after the first batch, they can also gift the 29 vehicles to a "friendly" country and announce them as exports like they loved to do with Kirpi.

I can't imagine TLF being excited to operate two different vehicles.

Also there is a good possibility BMC will delay and delay and delay production on these vehicles. Wouldn't suprise me the least.

 

[Khagan1923]

What do you mean, isn't Alpha modular?
Won't only one module differ for each variant?

Pretty sure it isn't modular, we all thought it was when it first leaked due to the similarity with Boxer but sadly it isn't.

 

[Sanchez]

Pretty sure it isn't modular, we all thought it was when it first leaked due to the similarity with Boxer but sadly it isn't.

"Modularity" is a buzzword. Alpha won't have mission modules that can be loaded and removed like on the Boxer, and this is a good thing. Boxer's mission modules only make sense for tiny armies that can't operate more than 50 vehicles at a time. It's a waste of time and manpower.

 

[boredaf]

It's a bloody fucking disgrace that BMC is being involved in this tender, at all. Borderline treasonous behaviour to do this just to give a leg up to a company that doesn't deserve it, that fucked up almost every project it touched.

 

[Sanchez]

Aselsan's workshare for the 29 Altuğ IFVs is 3.3 million euros per vehicle.

"A contract worth EUR 96,852,535 was signed between ASELSAN and BMC Otomotiv for the supply of Remote Controlled Weapon, Military Communication, Recognition and Identification, Self Protection and Navigation Systems for the needs of the Land Forces Command. Deliveries under this contract will take place between 2027 and 2028."

KAP

Kamuyu Aydınlatma Platformu

www.kap.org.tr

But more importantly, deliveries starting from 2027? What?! This has to be a joke.

 

[Azeri441]

I hope we will get this variant too. With PULAT, AKKOR and hopefully 40 mm turret.

View attachment 73834

how does this even work? Akkor and Pulat have different radars, unless Pulat is activated once Akkor runs out of ammo.

 

[Huelague]

I'm on my knees crying tears of joy in an Aldi right now.

Hahahhaha…
For the non speaking German members. ‚Aldi‘ is a supermarket.

 

[Huelague]

Short summary guys, which company has won the tender?

 

[Anmdt]

Aselsan's workshare for the 29 Altuğ IFVs is 3.3 million euros per vehicle.

"A contract worth EUR 96,852,535 was signed between ASELSAN and BMC Otomotiv for the supply of Remote Controlled Weapon, Military Communication, Recognition and Identification, Self Protection and Navigation Systems for the needs of the Land Forces Command. Deliveries under this contract will take place between 2027 and 2028."

KAP

Kamuyu Aydınlatma Platformu

www.kap.org.tr

But more importantly, deliveries starting from 2027? What?! This has to be a joke.

Yet another T0 + 24 months thing.
These will be produced in BMC's Ankara factory, aside the status of the factory construction, how fast they can establish and qualify a productio line?
Putting few equipments is not sufficient, they gotta qualify all the stuff, quality control from scratch.. wow, all in 2 years with 29 vehicles seems like another work load on Tank Palet and 3-4 vehicles in 2027.

 

[Khagan1923]

Yet another T0 + 24 months thing.
These will be produced in BMC's Ankara factory, aside the status of the factory construction, how fast they can establish and qualify a productio line?
Putting few equipments is not sufficient, they gotta qualify all the stuff, quality control from scratch.. wow, all in 2 years with 29 vehicles seems like another work load on Tank Palet and 3-4 vehicles in 2027.

This whole thing for me stinks. I guess they wanted to give BMC something as not to look like clowns after handing them pretty much everything they wanted.

I expect further orders to happen mainly for Alpha, a 35mm turreted version will surely follow too.

Seeing how they once again pushed back Altay timetable, Altug will never be delivered in the timeframe given by BMC By that time the TLF will probably already have induceted a couple dozen Pars Alpha.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Short summary guys, which company has won the tender?

SSB deserves great praise indeed. Congratulations.

Gentlemen, Turkish defense industry is very strongly positioned, especially in armored wheeled vehicles. We have BMC, FNSS and OTOKAR.
in fact, BMC and FNSS win, OTOKAR loses. As long as OTOKAR does not change its product philosophy. she won't see a cent from TSK.

If we want to see the matter politically, both BMC and FNSS are equally close to the government. Unfortunately, OTOKAR is very far away. But it's your own fault. They did not want to understand but also did not want to see what TSK intends.

To the matter:
About 2600 vehicles will be sold. Of these, 2600 will go to BMC, but 2600 will also go to FNSS. FNSS is very strong in vehicle internal armor. BMC is very strong in armor steel. So they have to order from each other. Big plus point is the MOTOR. BMC has its own engine. All IP rights belong to the BMC, not to the SSB.

FNSS has to buy the engine from the BMC, BMC has to go to the FNNS for internal armor of the vehicles. This is called a profitable synergy effect. (Until TÜMOSAN can deliver suitable engines to FNSS in large quantities. I think TÜMOSAN needs time for that too.)

I read that BMC has been given time by political decision-makers so that they can be free with Altug. Gentlemen, FNSS has also been given time so that they can manufacture landing gear from PARS domestically. At that time, the chassis components were from PARS in the Czech Republic.

OTOKAR buys important compotents from abroad and somehow OTOKAR buys these parts more expensive than normal. That has not gone unnoticed either. At some point they fly up, but violently.

Don't forget!!! : TSK was very patient with COBRA 1. The vehicles were good, but as long as they had spare parts. OTOKAR was not able to keep Cobra vehicles in use as guaranteed. TSK does not want to experience the same thing again. But OTOKAR did not understand that.

I hope the whole thing goes on stage quickly because time is running out.!!!