TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Pokemonte13]

Isn’t the ALTAY tank that’s been presented in the t2 configuration or am I missing something also that that production timeline for this and next year is ridiculous what’s the point of having a new factory?

 

[Nutuk]

I remember we ware making fun of the Indian Arjun tank project.

With Altay we managed worse than the Indians

 

[Merzifonlu]

I remember we ware making fun of the Indian Arjun tank project.

With Altay we managed worse than the Indians

Errr, i think not worse. IMO equally worse! LOL

 

[Strong AI]

With Altay we managed worse than the Indians

Comparing Altay with Arjun is an insult in itself. And seeing this comment from a member with a TTA Tag makes me sad.

 

[Sanchez]

I remember we ware making fun of the Indian Arjun tank project.

With Altay we managed worse than the Indians

I don't agree with this. Arjun was delayed and was outdated. Altay is delayed but it is not outdated, if anything it is still very much modern. M60T1 have more modern electronics than Leo2A7 but in an obsolete layout. Carry them to Altay, and it is still modern with future upgradeability added in.

 

[Nutuk]

Well I would liked to have agreed with you but facts are there, first proto of the Altay was in 2012, 13 years later still not in production.

Is anything but success, no matter if in the meantime some minor upgrades have been made

 

[Yasar_TR]

Well, let’s not fight over it. Also no reason or point to compare it with Arjun.
Yes the tank is unbelievably late. But at least we haven’t given up on it; and bought another make.
We have been upgrading it in line with time and experiences from the field.
It has become a prestige thing for us as well. To prove to the west and to show the middle finger to those that tried to sabotage it, that we can make a tank that is as good as any.
But it looks like, by the time we have produced a dozen or two of them it will need a new upgrade, as the next generation of tanks will be in fashion.
We might as well limit the initial production to bare minimums, just to give production run experience to the new factory, so that the proper serial production gives us a tank like KF51 or AbramsX in the post 2028 period.

Panther KF51

AbramsX

Altay MBT

 

[Strong AI]

Well, let’s not fight over it. Also no reason or point to compare it with Arjun.
Yes the tank is unbelievably late. But at least we haven’t given up on it; and bought another make.
We have been upgrading it in line with time and experiences from the field.
It has become a prestige thing for us as well. To prove to the west and to show the middle finger to those that tried to sabotage it, that we can make a tank that is as good as any.
But it looks like, by the time we have produced a dozen or two of them it will need a new upgrade, as the next generation of tanks will be in fashion.
We might as well limit the initial production to bare minimums, just to give production run experience to the new factory, so that the proper serial production gives us a tank like KF51 or AbramsX in the post 2028 period.

Panther KF51
View attachment 73838

AbramsX
View attachment 73839

Altay MBT
View attachment 73840

I hate that futuristic look. It gives me the same vibe as some electric cars. But that missile launcher looks interesting.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

As far as I know, the Panther KF51 is only a design study/demonstrator not a serial Tank or not?

 

[Turkic]

As far as I know, the Panther KF51 is only a design study/demonstrator not a serial Tank or not?

Actually it is both. I can't say they didn't expect for some orders but it's mainly a demo. Imo, their main goal was to show it and then get a contract to develop a tank based on it because it needed improvements.

 

[CAN_TR]

Germany just added Leopard2A7 A1 into their inventory and ordered additional ~120 Leopard2A8 in 2023, there were rumors that Italy is interested and potential first customer of the KF51 Panther but at the end they ordered 132 Leoprad2A8's, so KF51 will probably not realized anytime soon and AbramsX is a bit to Sci-Fi, most likely a new design, that has diesel electric engine and AI stuff...

With the current Altay T1 and T2 we will have the most capable MBT in the region, the delays also had their good point, i mean the current Altay is a technological beast in comparison to the last "serial production" variant.

 

[Sanchez]

there were rumors that Italy is interested and potential first customer of the KF51 Panther but at the end they ordered 132 Leoprad2A8's

They ordered 2A8 and also formed a joint company between Rheinmetall and Leonardo to build the next gen AFVs based on AF51 and AF41. That's at least a decade away.

 

[Khagan1923]

supposed LEO2A4TR modernization.

 

[Pokemonte13]

View attachment 74023

supposed LEO2A4TR modernization.

If this is for what they are doing than I understand why it’s taking so long but I thought they would just take Roketsan armour pack and ad the upgrade from Chilean leo2 upgrade

 

[Fairon]

View attachment 74023

supposed LEO2A4TR modernization..

Hopefully we start apply this package to tanks now.

I am not gonna get my hopes up until I see the upgraded tanks on the field.(I will not even bother with the test site footage as well)

 

[Yasar_TR]

Hopefully we start apply this package to tanks now.

I am not gonna get my hopes up until I see the upgraded tanks on the field.(I will not even bother with the test site footage as well)

The upgrade involves 280 tanks. Originally at the end of 2006 with a cost of 430 million dollars, 354 tanks were purchased from Germany. It seems the land forces sees 280 of them to be upgradeable.

There is extensive work to be done to the tanks. The armour is completely overhauled; both composite armour and new reactive explosive panels are fitted. Fire control computers and communication and security suites are added. Remote controlled auto gun and active protection Akkor, plus an electrical drive for the gun and turret are also fitted.

In other words, with all the new electronics included, short of the gun, power pack and carcass almost everything is renewed.

This is not going to be a cheap exercise. But even if it costs a third of a new Altay tank, it is still a viable endeavour.

These tanks have the 120mm L44 caliber guns like the 160 TM60 tanks. So their gun doesn‘t possess the punch, Altay’s L55 gun has. But nevertheless it is effective.

If the budgetary restraints don’t have much of an impact, the modernisation can be fast. Otherwise it can be a lengthy process. Already 40 of the 280 units had undergone the armour upgrades; and 80 more were due for the same. They all will have to undergo the complete upgrades as explained above.

These upgrades are vital. We only have 160 TM60 tanks that can be classified as modern and up to date. The rest are museum pieces.

 

[Khagan1923]

The upgrade involves 280 tanks. Originally at the end of 2006 with a cost of 430 million dollars, 354 tanks were purchased from Germany. It seems the land forces sees 280 of them to be upgradeable.

There is extensive work to be done to the tanks. The armour is completely overhauled; both composite armour and new reactive explosive panels are fitted. Fire control computers and communication and security suites are added. Remote controlled auto gun and active protection Akkor, plus an electrical drive for the gun and turret are also fitted.

In other words, with all the new electronics included, short of the gun, power pack and carcass almost everything is renewed.

This is not going to be a cheap exercise. But even if it costs a third of a new Altay tank, it is still a viable endeavour.

These tanks have the 120mm L44 caliber guns like the 160 TM60 tanks. So their gun doesn‘t possess the punch, Altay’s L55 gun has. But nevertheless it is effective.

If the budgetary restraints don’t have much of an impact, the modernisation can be fast. Otherwise it can be a lengthy process. Already 40 of the 280 units had undergone the armour upgrades; and 80 more were due for the same. They all will have to undergo the complete upgrades as explained above.

These upgrades are vital. We only have 160 TM60 tanks that can be classified as modern and up to date. The rest are museum pieces.

If they only intend on aquiring 250-300 Altay they will have to upgrade every single viable Leo2A4 to this level. We need AT LEAST 500 modern tanks than can go into a fight against peers.

And even that IMO is too low of a number. There is a reason Land Forces chose 1000 Tanks as their demand.

 

[YeşilVatan]

If they only intend on aquiring 250-300 Altay they will have to upgrade every single viable Leo2A4 to this level. We need AT LEAST 500 modern tanks than can go into a fight against peers.

And even that IMO is too low of a number. There is a reason Land Forces chose 1000 Tanks as their demand.

Which is why I think a doctrine change is in order. We need medium tanks to fill the gaps and buff up armored brigades. MZK M-60s are the solution IMHO. Just slap a missile launcher on top and it can do %80 of what is needed from a modern tank. And we have a lot of them. 750+ if I'm not mistaken. Assuming costs and timetables match, we can even put new engines in them via tweaking UTKU or something like that, and that is not even an emergency.

 

[Khagan1923]

Which is why I think a doctrine change is in order. We need medium tanks to fill the gaps and buff up armored brigades. MZK M-60s are the solution IMHO. Just slap a missile launcher on top and it can do %80 of what is needed from a modern tank. And we have a lot of them. 750+ if I'm not mistaken. Assuming costs and timetables match, we can even put new engines in them via tweaking UTKU or something like that, and that is not even an emergency.

Sadly Land Forces has no interest in medium tanks.

Best case scenario they order another batch of 150-200 Altay + upgrade all viable Leos to Leo2A4TR level (200-250). And we end up with ~700 relative modern tanks plus whatever they have in inventory for Anti-Armor (Pars 4x4, Kaplan-10, Pars Alpha 6x6/8x8)

 

[Pokemonte13]

So in the next 10-15 years ground forces hopefully will have:
150-160 M60TM
300-350 Leopard 2a4TM
300-500 Altay T1/2/3
100-150 M60MZK
That would be close to 800 Modern Tanks granted.
Wheeled Tanks are unlikely but maybe 105mm Tulpar with tracked IFV Tender.
Now we just need the 2000 Alphas in service and we have the best ground forces in the region without doubt.