TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Sanchez]

there were rumors that Italy is interested and potential first customer of the KF51 Panther but at the end they ordered 132 Leoprad2A8's

They ordered 2A8 and also formed a joint company between Rheinmetall and Leonardo to build the next gen AFVs based on AF51 and AF41. That's at least a decade away.

 

[Khagan1923]

supposed LEO2A4TR modernization.

 

[Pokemonte13]

View attachment 74023

supposed LEO2A4TR modernization.

If this is for what they are doing than I understand why it’s taking so long but I thought they would just take Roketsan armour pack and ad the upgrade from Chilean leo2 upgrade

 

[Fairon]

View attachment 74023

supposed LEO2A4TR modernization..

Hopefully we start apply this package to tanks now.

I am not gonna get my hopes up until I see the upgraded tanks on the field.(I will not even bother with the test site footage as well)

 

[Yasar_TR]

Hopefully we start apply this package to tanks now.

I am not gonna get my hopes up until I see the upgraded tanks on the field.(I will not even bother with the test site footage as well)

The upgrade involves 280 tanks. Originally at the end of 2006 with a cost of 430 million dollars, 354 tanks were purchased from Germany. It seems the land forces sees 280 of them to be upgradeable.

There is extensive work to be done to the tanks. The armour is completely overhauled; both composite armour and new reactive explosive panels are fitted. Fire control computers and communication and security suites are added. Remote controlled auto gun and active protection Akkor, plus an electrical drive for the gun and turret are also fitted.

In other words, with all the new electronics included, short of the gun, power pack and carcass almost everything is renewed.

This is not going to be a cheap exercise. But even if it costs a third of a new Altay tank, it is still a viable endeavour.

These tanks have the 120mm L44 caliber guns like the 160 TM60 tanks. So their gun doesn‘t possess the punch, Altay’s L55 gun has. But nevertheless it is effective.

If the budgetary restraints don’t have much of an impact, the modernisation can be fast. Otherwise it can be a lengthy process. Already 40 of the 280 units had undergone the armour upgrades; and 80 more were due for the same. They all will have to undergo the complete upgrades as explained above.

These upgrades are vital. We only have 160 TM60 tanks that can be classified as modern and up to date. The rest are museum pieces.

 

[Khagan1923]

The upgrade involves 280 tanks. Originally at the end of 2006 with a cost of 430 million dollars, 354 tanks were purchased from Germany. It seems the land forces sees 280 of them to be upgradeable.

There is extensive work to be done to the tanks. The armour is completely overhauled; both composite armour and new reactive explosive panels are fitted. Fire control computers and communication and security suites are added. Remote controlled auto gun and active protection Akkor, plus an electrical drive for the gun and turret are also fitted.

In other words, with all the new electronics included, short of the gun, power pack and carcass almost everything is renewed.

This is not going to be a cheap exercise. But even if it costs a third of a new Altay tank, it is still a viable endeavour.

These tanks have the 120mm L44 caliber guns like the 160 TM60 tanks. So their gun doesn‘t possess the punch, Altay’s L55 gun has. But nevertheless it is effective.

If the budgetary restraints don’t have much of an impact, the modernisation can be fast. Otherwise it can be a lengthy process. Already 40 of the 280 units had undergone the armour upgrades; and 80 more were due for the same. They all will have to undergo the complete upgrades as explained above.

These upgrades are vital. We only have 160 TM60 tanks that can be classified as modern and up to date. The rest are museum pieces.

If they only intend on aquiring 250-300 Altay they will have to upgrade every single viable Leo2A4 to this level. We need AT LEAST 500 modern tanks than can go into a fight against peers.

And even that IMO is too low of a number. There is a reason Land Forces chose 1000 Tanks as their demand.

 

[YeşilVatan]

If they only intend on aquiring 250-300 Altay they will have to upgrade every single viable Leo2A4 to this level. We need AT LEAST 500 modern tanks than can go into a fight against peers.

And even that IMO is too low of a number. There is a reason Land Forces chose 1000 Tanks as their demand.

Which is why I think a doctrine change is in order. We need medium tanks to fill the gaps and buff up armored brigades. MZK M-60s are the solution IMHO. Just slap a missile launcher on top and it can do %80 of what is needed from a modern tank. And we have a lot of them. 750+ if I'm not mistaken. Assuming costs and timetables match, we can even put new engines in them via tweaking UTKU or something like that, and that is not even an emergency.

 

[Khagan1923]

Which is why I think a doctrine change is in order. We need medium tanks to fill the gaps and buff up armored brigades. MZK M-60s are the solution IMHO. Just slap a missile launcher on top and it can do %80 of what is needed from a modern tank. And we have a lot of them. 750+ if I'm not mistaken. Assuming costs and timetables match, we can even put new engines in them via tweaking UTKU or something like that, and that is not even an emergency.

Sadly Land Forces has no interest in medium tanks.

Best case scenario they order another batch of 150-200 Altay + upgrade all viable Leos to Leo2A4TR level (200-250). And we end up with ~700 relative modern tanks plus whatever they have in inventory for Anti-Armor (Pars 4x4, Kaplan-10, Pars Alpha 6x6/8x8)

 

[Pokemonte13]

So in the next 10-15 years ground forces hopefully will have:
150-160 M60TM
300-350 Leopard 2a4TM
300-500 Altay T1/2/3
100-150 M60MZK
That would be close to 800 Modern Tanks granted.
Wheeled Tanks are unlikely but maybe 105mm Tulpar with tracked IFV Tender.
Now we just need the 2000 Alphas in service and we have the best ground forces in the region without doubt.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

So in the next 10-15 years ground forces hopefully will have:
150-160 M60TM
300-350 Leopard 2a4TM
300-500 Altay T1/2/3
100-150 M60MZK
That would be close to 800 Modern Tanks granted.
Wheeled Tanks are unlikely but maybe 105mm Tulpar with tracked IFV Tender.
Now we just need the 2000 Alphas in service and we have the best ground forces in the region without doubt.

There is no information that land forces dont want anymore 1000 Altays , Turkiye is not belgium or italy to produce only 200-300 tanks because they dont habe enemies all around and habe low number of ground forces like >100k while we have 400k
-Turkiye eventually will have

- 1000 Altay
- 300 Leo2a4TM
- 500-700 M60 modernised

 

[Fairon]

There is no information that land forces dont want anymore 1000 Altays , Turkiye is not belgium or italy to produce only 200-300 tanks because they dont habe enemies all around and habe low number of ground forces like >100k while we have 400k
-Turkiye eventually will have

- 1000 Altay
- 300 Leo2a4TM
- 500-700 M60 modernised

The army probably wants 1,000 tanks, that's for sure. But I think that after the first batch of 250 Altay tanks, the rest of the orders will wait for the Altay T3 (or will be decided after the T3 roadmap becomes clearer). In the meantime, they seem to want to make do with Altay and upgraded tanks.

 

[Sanchez]

With these announced timelines of production and costs involved, we will never have 1000 modern/modernized tanks in the next 40 years unless someone else bankrolls us. Economies of scale don't work here at all. Army is not just being funded less, it's also being downsized since cold war ended. We don't currently have a force structure to operate 1000 modern tanks that require higher rank NCOs and professional soldiers.

 

[Turkic]

The army probably wants 1,000 tanks, that's for sure. But I think that after the first batch of 250 Altay tanks, the rest of the orders will wait for the Altay T3 (or will be decided after the T3 roadmap becomes clearer). In the meantime, they seem to want to make do with Altay and upgraded tanks.

With these announced timelines of production and costs involved, we will never have 1000 modern/modernized tanks in the next 40 years unless someone else bankrolls us. Economies of scale don't work here at all. Army is not just being funded less, it's also being downsized since cold war ended. We don't currently have a force structure to operate 1000 modern tanks that require higher rank NCOs and professional soldiers.

TAF wants to replace all tanks in the inventory. I have no doubt for new purchases after the first batch is delivered. Big armies like us gives almost equal budgets to all forces as possible unless it has a special condition like the UK. And when equal budgets are given to the forces, it's easy to understand how big is each forces if you know at least one of them. You can pair MBT's with fighter jets, IFV and other support vehicles with helis and air-transport vehicles. ~200 Kaan's ≈ ~2000 Altay's. ~x T-70's ≈ ~10x Pars Alpha's etc. Ofc these are not any type of certain numbers. Just rough guesses.

And don't forget our army is managing the highest budget since the republic.

So there's money to produce more Altay's. And there's armies will. This is why I have no doubt for 1000+ Altay's in the next decade or so.

 

[Sanchez]

TAF wants to replace all tanks in the inventory.

You don't know that.

Big armies like us gives almost equal budgets to all forces as possible unless it has a special condition like the UK. it's easy to understand how big is each forces if you know at least one of them.

Untrue. Every force structure have different budgeting due to their different needs and size. It's not 33.3% x 3 at all.

And don't forget our army is managing the highest budget since the republic.

A tank used to cost 50.000 dollars in 1945 and a jet used to cost 5 million in 60s. In the original program, KKK is slated to get 250 Altays for about 13 million each, while a new F-16 costs 60 million, Kaan probably 80-100 million.

You can't just show the dollar value and say it's highest. Best metric is the military spending to GDP ratio. And no, this is still one of the smallest military budgets to GDP since the republic was founded. It's barely above 2%, if that. Highest recorded Turkish military spending to GDP in modern history was 5.1 percent per open data in 1975. It was 3.75% in 1991.

I'm of course not touching the second part of my original point. We don't have the force structure to operate 1000 modern tanks, and judging by how the unit formations fared in the last 15 or so years, it'll get even smaller. We probably have the largest light infantry force in the world, why the fuck do we need 16 commando brigades for. We don't just lack modern tanks. We lack modern artillery, MLRS, modern AFVs and thousands of logistics vehicles. Problem is not solved by just building tanks. We need the force structure to go along with it. And we simply don't have the budget for that.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Turkey does not need so many heavy tanks 400-500 Yeni Altay T1/T2 tanks are enough, the 200-300 Leopard 2 tanks can be upgraded cheaply to A4T1 level. The combination with few hundert T60 Sabra MKII Tanks are enough then.
The time of the Symmetrical Wars is finally over, you should rely more on light, very light tracked vehicles with a lot of firepower that are fast, agile and have a long range.
All the FPV drones, anti-tank missiles and drones from ambushes have turned even the most modern heavy tanks into trash en masse.
Many heavy tanks are a relic from the Cold War, and the same applies to heavy attack helicopters, which have also been turned into trash.
The future belongs to drones, light/medium tanks, light/medium helicopters that are fast and agile and have a long range like T129 & T629 even the US is not developing heavy helicopters anymore.

The future belongs to lightweight/mediumweight, flexible, networked and manned/unmanned systems.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Aside from tanks we have some much dire need for logistics vehicles and modern apcs in general and we don’t even need to buy everything new but can also upgrade what we have for pennies on the dollar for example the acv 15 vehicles modernisation I wouldn’t want that as an ifv but as an apc in support roles it’s good enough and we have thousands of them around .

 

[Turkic]

You don't know that.

It was told by most defence experts for the Altay program. It's not my own saying.

Untrue. Every force structure have different budgeting due to their different needs and size. It's not 33.3% x 3 at all.

Why don't you check shares of forces in the US military budget ? They're managing fairly equal powered forces with equal budgets. Only countries like the UK does not fit this because they don't have any significant land forces.

You can't just show the dollar value and say it's highest. Best metric is the military spending to GDP ratio. And no, this is still one of the smallest military budgets to GDP since the republic was founded. It's barely above 2%, if that. Highest recorded Turkish military spending to GDP in modern history was 5.1 percent per open data in 1975. It was 3.75% in 1991.

5.1% of 1975 gdp is around 2 billion dollars. Which is equal to 12 billion dollars if you calculate dollar inflation.

3.75% of 1991 gdp is around 5.5 billion dollars equal to 13 billion dollars today.

It's not always about number of dollars as you say but it's also not always % of gdp. You should consider the gdp then and also the dollar inflation. We have the highest budget since the foundation of republic today.


I am not saying our army will get one Altay for each tank in the inventory. Our tank inventory will get smaller in mid term as you say but not as much as you think. 1000 Altay's was repeatedly told by both western and Turkish media. Also we'll have 500+ upgraded tanks. Which is 1500+ modern tanks by 2040. 1000 Altay's is 2/3 of the number (~1500) of our tanks to be retired.

 

[what]

Okay I'll play the devils advocate and the economist. Do we need 1k high end tanks right now? And do we have other priorities that would be money better spend? 1k sounds excessive. If the Leos can be upgraded for a better bang for buck ratio, the Leos should be upgraded.

I dont know the answer, just thinking out loud.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Okay I'll play the devils advocate and the economist. Do we need 1k high end tanks right now? And do we have other priorities that would be money better spend? 1k sounds excessive. If the Leos can be upgraded for a better bang for buck ratio, the Leos should be upgraded.

I dont know the answer, just thinking out loud.

We don’t need 1k but at least 300 Altays that could work together with upgraded leos and m60 army needs more ad and wheeled vehicles

 

[I_Love_F16]

Iran is on a whole new dimension

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1914217517440012350

What this has to do with the Altay tank ?