TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Turkic]

The army probably wants 1,000 tanks, that's for sure. But I think that after the first batch of 250 Altay tanks, the rest of the orders will wait for the Altay T3 (or will be decided after the T3 roadmap becomes clearer). In the meantime, they seem to want to make do with Altay and upgraded tanks.

With these announced timelines of production and costs involved, we will never have 1000 modern/modernized tanks in the next 40 years unless someone else bankrolls us. Economies of scale don't work here at all. Army is not just being funded less, it's also being downsized since cold war ended. We don't currently have a force structure to operate 1000 modern tanks that require higher rank NCOs and professional soldiers.

TAF wants to replace all tanks in the inventory. I have no doubt for new purchases after the first batch is delivered. Big armies like us gives almost equal budgets to all forces as possible unless it has a special condition like the UK. And when equal budgets are given to the forces, it's easy to understand how big is each forces if you know at least one of them. You can pair MBT's with fighter jets, IFV and other support vehicles with helis and air-transport vehicles. ~200 Kaan's ≈ ~2000 Altay's. ~x T-70's ≈ ~10x Pars Alpha's etc. Ofc these are not any type of certain numbers. Just rough guesses.

And don't forget our army is managing the highest budget since the republic.

So there's money to produce more Altay's. And there's armies will. This is why I have no doubt for 1000+ Altay's in the next decade or so.

 

[Sanchez]

TAF wants to replace all tanks in the inventory.

You don't know that.

Big armies like us gives almost equal budgets to all forces as possible unless it has a special condition like the UK. it's easy to understand how big is each forces if you know at least one of them.

Untrue. Every force structure have different budgeting due to their different needs and size. It's not 33.3% x 3 at all.

And don't forget our army is managing the highest budget since the republic.

A tank used to cost 50.000 dollars in 1945 and a jet used to cost 5 million in 60s. In the original program, KKK is slated to get 250 Altays for about 13 million each, while a new F-16 costs 60 million, Kaan probably 80-100 million.

You can't just show the dollar value and say it's highest. Best metric is the military spending to GDP ratio. And no, this is still one of the smallest military budgets to GDP since the republic was founded. It's barely above 2%, if that. Highest recorded Turkish military spending to GDP in modern history was 5.1 percent per open data in 1975. It was 3.75% in 1991.

I'm of course not touching the second part of my original point. We don't have the force structure to operate 1000 modern tanks, and judging by how the unit formations fared in the last 15 or so years, it'll get even smaller. We probably have the largest light infantry force in the world, why the fuck do we need 16 commando brigades for. We don't just lack modern tanks. We lack modern artillery, MLRS, modern AFVs and thousands of logistics vehicles. Problem is not solved by just building tanks. We need the force structure to go along with it. And we simply don't have the budget for that.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Turkey does not need so many heavy tanks 400-500 Yeni Altay T1/T2 tanks are enough, the 200-300 Leopard 2 tanks can be upgraded cheaply to A4T1 level. The combination with few hundert T60 Sabra MKII Tanks are enough then.
The time of the Symmetrical Wars is finally over, you should rely more on light, very light tracked vehicles with a lot of firepower that are fast, agile and have a long range.
All the FPV drones, anti-tank missiles and drones from ambushes have turned even the most modern heavy tanks into trash en masse.
Many heavy tanks are a relic from the Cold War, and the same applies to heavy attack helicopters, which have also been turned into trash.
The future belongs to drones, light/medium tanks, light/medium helicopters that are fast and agile and have a long range like T129 & T629 even the US is not developing heavy helicopters anymore.

The future belongs to lightweight/mediumweight, flexible, networked and manned/unmanned systems.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Aside from tanks we have some much dire need for logistics vehicles and modern apcs in general and we don’t even need to buy everything new but can also upgrade what we have for pennies on the dollar for example the acv 15 vehicles modernisation I wouldn’t want that as an ifv but as an apc in support roles it’s good enough and we have thousands of them around .

 

[Turkic]

You don't know that.

It was told by most defence experts for the Altay program. It's not my own saying.

Untrue. Every force structure have different budgeting due to their different needs and size. It's not 33.3% x 3 at all.

Why don't you check shares of forces in the US military budget ? They're managing fairly equal powered forces with equal budgets. Only countries like the UK does not fit this because they don't have any significant land forces.

You can't just show the dollar value and say it's highest. Best metric is the military spending to GDP ratio. And no, this is still one of the smallest military budgets to GDP since the republic was founded. It's barely above 2%, if that. Highest recorded Turkish military spending to GDP in modern history was 5.1 percent per open data in 1975. It was 3.75% in 1991.

5.1% of 1975 gdp is around 2 billion dollars. Which is equal to 12 billion dollars if you calculate dollar inflation.

3.75% of 1991 gdp is around 5.5 billion dollars equal to 13 billion dollars today.

It's not always about number of dollars as you say but it's also not always % of gdp. You should consider the gdp then and also the dollar inflation. We have the highest budget since the foundation of republic today.


I am not saying our army will get one Altay for each tank in the inventory. Our tank inventory will get smaller in mid term as you say but not as much as you think. 1000 Altay's was repeatedly told by both western and Turkish media. Also we'll have 500+ upgraded tanks. Which is 1500+ modern tanks by 2040. 1000 Altay's is 2/3 of the number (~1500) of our tanks to be retired.

 

[what]

Okay I'll play the devils advocate and the economist. Do we need 1k high end tanks right now? And do we have other priorities that would be money better spend? 1k sounds excessive. If the Leos can be upgraded for a better bang for buck ratio, the Leos should be upgraded.

I dont know the answer, just thinking out loud.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Okay I'll play the devils advocate and the economist. Do we need 1k high end tanks right now? And do we have other priorities that would be money better spend? 1k sounds excessive. If the Leos can be upgraded for a better bang for buck ratio, the Leos should be upgraded.

I dont know the answer, just thinking out loud.

We don’t need 1k but at least 300 Altays that could work together with upgraded leos and m60 army needs more ad and wheeled vehicles

 

[I_Love_F16]

Iran is on a whole new dimension

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1914217517440012350

What this has to do with the Altay tank ?

 

[Lool]

What this has to do with the Altay tank ?

Posted in the wrong thread and didnt notice, sorry

 

[mTT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1914582166618439684

last 130 days

 

[begturan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1914582166618439684

last 130 days

The Altay tank's delay wasn't bad at all, the tank was updated against current threats, especially after the Syrian and Ukrainian wars. It is at a good level, especially in terms of detection and prevention systems against drones.

In the future, we will probably see unmanned turrets and fully unmanned versions. Thus, we will continue to use manned systems along with unmanned systems that will be gradually prepared for the future combat environment.

 

[Lool]

The Altay tank's delay wasn't bad at all, the tank was updated against current threats, especially after the Syrian and Ukrainian wars. It is at a good level, especially in terms of detection and prevention systems against drones.

In the future, we will probably see unmanned turrets and fully unmanned versions. Thus, we will continue to use manned systems along with unmanned systems that will be gradually prepared for the future combat environment.

No, the Altay tank delay was bad

This is the result of trusting idiots that dont even have an ounce of knowledge like Ethem Sancak and Erdogan is suffering the consequences of trusting empty promises without logical backing/planning

The current Altay tank is way too late and probably near outdated as well considering that automated turrets are on the horizon and the introduction and global implementation of mass suicide drones or even drones like TB2s

The new Altay tank should be more automated, faster, stronger, and above all..... lighter to become useful in the war field again

The only good thing Turkey gained from the Altay program fiasco is that Turkey has managed to design, nationalise, and produce its own domestic tank engine which will save Turkey's ass in the next 10-15 years or so. I would have also included the fact that Turkey learned the lesson that Germany should never be trusted with anything critical whether in civilian or military field as they as massive hypocrites and liara; however, with the recent Akkuyu fiasco, it seems that Erdogan still needs more time to learn such fact

 

[Strong AI]

The Altay tank's delay wasn't bad at all, the tank was updated against current threats, especially after the Syrian and Ukrainian wars. It is at a good level, especially in terms of detection and prevention systems against drones.

In the future, we will probably see unmanned turrets and fully unmanned versions. Thus, we will continue to use manned systems along with unmanned systems that will be gradually prepared for the future combat environment.

Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that the management of the whole ALTAY program is a failure. It was as clear as day that our "allies" would put embargoes in place, but we had zero alternative ways to get over it for many years.
It is another question if we really needed those tanks back then.
I am just glad that TAF will get up to date tanks finally InsaAllah.

 

[Saithan]

Let's wait and see, I expect announcements of delivery for every tank, I have 0 trust in this government anymore. They may cut it short after 20 pieces are produced.

 

[Sanchez]

the tank was updated against current threats

Was it? How?

 

[Pokemonte13]

Was it? How?

Roof armour upgrade sarp counter uav capability aps and maybe jammers

 

[boredaf]

Roof armour upgrade sarp counter uav capability aps and maybe jammers

Has there been any mention of a "roof armour upgrade"? Or jammer or Sarp anti drone capability?

 

[Sanchez]

Has there been any mention of a "roof armour upgrade"? Or jammer or Sarp anti drone capability?

Nope. And Sarp anti drone capability is nothing more than a plan for now. Also no jammers and no anti drone capability for Akkor so far.

 

[boredaf]

Nope. And Sarp anti drone capability is nothing more than a plan for now. Also no jammers and no anti drone capability for Akkor so far.

Akkor anti drone would be a waste because I've seen both Ukraine and Russia send multiple drones to kill tanks and it has, what, 4 or 6 charges?

 

[Sanchez]

Akkor anti drone would be a waste because I've seen both Ukraine and Russia send multiple drones to kill tanks and it has, what, 4 or 6 charges?

Still better than losing a tank to a drone though. RCWS are very light skinned, they won't survive long in an open war, so we can't expect them to take over the anti drone duties.