TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[begturan]

Yes, the TF6000/TF10,000 makes sense for Kızılelma, but if we want to build a true unmanned combat aircraft, I think we'll need two 20,000 lb engines, as 10,000 lb isn't suitable for heavy loads. Do you have any estimates on this?

Baykar Engines has launched a project for a 20,000 lb turbofan engine. In this case, the actual target might be 20,000 lb. The real question is, will a single engine be sufficient, or will two 20,000 lb engines be sufficient?

An unmanned combat aircraft with such engine power could undertake many critical, high-risk missions, ensure the safety of our pilots, and take Türkiye to the top of the air dominance ladder.

 

[Zafer]

Yes, the TF6000/TF10,000 makes sense for Kızılelma, but if we want to build a true unmanned combat aircraft, I think we'll need two 20,000 lb engines, as 10,000 lb isn't suitable for heavy loads. Do you have any estimates on this?

Baykar Engines has launched a project for a 20,000 lb turbofan engine. In this case, the actual target might be 20,000 lb. The real question is, will a single engine be sufficient, or will two 20,000 lb engines be sufficient?

An unmanned combat aircraft with such engine power could undertake many critical, high-risk missions, ensure the safety of our pilots, and take Türkiye to the top of the air dominance ladder.

Once you make everything else on the plane ready to go a new engine can be a new version of the same plane without much development time to spend. If Baykar makes the ideal engine for the plane it can finally be the main configuration. With several engine options it will be possible to deliver different quality Kızılelma versions including possible non stealth and stealth versions.

 

[Strong AI]

While Kızılelma needs the TF10000 engine to attain its designed capabilities the TF6000 engine only lacks the afterburner power that the TF10000 engine offers. AB is used in rare situations, this means that the TF6000 can still do a job if you do not foresee a high power requirement in a given mission. I can imagine Kızılelma flying with the TF6000 engine which is supposed to be in the preparation for flight state as of now. If the TF6000 engine becomes flyable a good amount of time before the TF10000 engine it maybe worthwhile to make a vesion of the Kızılelma to fly with the lesser engine. The TF6000 can be lighter giving more flight time for the mission. Two versions please.

Yeah but TEI mentioned several times they are now prioritizing TF10000 over TF6000 because of KE. So it looks like KE will never use TF6000.

 

[OPTIMUS]

What has been occupying me for a long time with Baykar regarding engine construction is how they imagine building an engine from scratch without experience and know-how. Also, they have set the measuring plate very high: a jet engine with an afterburner. The whole thing seems very, very questionable to me. What comes to mind: they are up to something we don’t know, or they have acquired quite a bit from the Ukrainians (engineering, technical knowledge, etc.) with money.

A jet engine with an afterburner... requires a hell of a lot. Even upgrading the TF6000 to the TF10000 involves a great deal of knowledge and work. Things are not as simple as in YouTube videos.

 

[Zafer]

Yeah but TEI mentioned several times they are now prioritizing TF10000 over TF6000 because of KE. So it looks like KE will never use TF6000.

Even when it is not a priority if there is a difference of more than a year to service you want the early one to be in service rather than waiting for the better one and it can be a different product too.

 

[Zafer]

What has been occupying me for a long time with Baykar regarding engine construction is how they imagine building an engine from scratch without experience and know-how. Also, they have set the measuring plate very high: a jet engine with an afterburner. The whole thing seems very, very questionable to me. What comes to mind: they are up to something we don’t know, or they have acquired quite a bit from the Ukrainians (engineering, technical knowledge, etc.) with money.

A jet engine with an afterburner... requires a hell of a lot. Even upgrading the TF6000 to the TF10000 involves a great deal of knowledge and work. Things are not as simple as in YouTube videos.

They can poach some good engineers or outsource some of the development and order some parts fom like TEI, why not.

 

[Sanchez]

HISTORIC TRIAL FOR BAYRAKTAR KIZILELMA: LOCKED ONTO AN F-16, SCORED A DIRECT HIT IN SIMULATED FIRE!​

Türkiye’s first unmanned fighter aircraft, Bayraktar KIZILELMA, has carried out yet another historic test in the sky. In the test conducted with the participation of two F-16 fighter jets of the Turkish Air Force, KIZILELMA locked onto the target F-16 using the national AESA Radar MURAD, and achieved a direct hit in its simulated fire test with the national air-to-air missile GÖKDOĞAN.​

Taking off from the AKINCI Flight Training and Test Center in Çorlu, Tekirdağ, the national unmanned fighter aircraft carried out formation flying with the F-16s and validated the integration of the national radar and munitions during its 1-hour-45-minute flight at an average altitude of 15,000 feet. With this flight, Bayraktar KIZILELMA’s total test flight time has surpassed 55 hours.

Two F-16 fighter jets belonging to the Turkish Air Force participated in the “Bayraktar KIZILELMA – GÖKDOĞAN Armed Flight and MURAD AESA Radar Performance Test.” One of the F-16s performed close formation flying with Bayraktar KIZILELMA, demonstrating the platform’s compatibility with manned fighter aircraft, while the other F-16 acted as the “target aircraft” within the test scenario. During the test, Bayraktar KIZILELMA detected the target F-16 at a distance of 30 miles using the MURAD AESA Radar developed by ASELSAN and locked onto the target. It then executed a simulated electronic firing using the GÖKDOĞAN Beyond-Visual-Range Air-to-Air Missile produced by TÜBİTAK SAGE and carried under its wing. In the simulation, Bayraktar KIZILELMA successfully neutralized the highly maneuverable F-16 target with a virtual direct hit, marking a major step forward for air-to-air combat capability.

One of the most critical phases of the test involved evaluating the communication infrastructure between the aircraft, radar, and missile. After locking onto the target F-16, Bayraktar KIZILELMA transmitted real-time target, position, and velocity data obtained from the MURAD AESA Radar seamlessly to the GÖKDOĞAN missile carried under its wing. The successful validation of this data link between Bayraktar KIZILELMA and the munition represents a significant milestone in the unmanned fighter aircraft’s capability to neutralize beyond-visual-range (BVR) targets.

During this historic flight over the skies of Tekirdağ, three distinct and challenging test scenarios were executed simultaneously with success. The F-16 formation flight—which demonstrated the capability for joint operations with manned fighter aircraft—offered insights into future air-combat concepts. The aerodynamic and avionic compatibility of the platform was verified through the GÖKDOĞAN Beyond-Visual-Range Air-to-Air Missile carried under the wing. In the same flight, the detection, tracking, lock-on, and data-transfer capabilities of the national MURAD AESA Radar—which was activated for the test—were also proven under demanding conditions.

HISTORIC TRIAL FOR BAYRAKTAR KIZILELMA: LOCKED ONTO AN F-16, SCORED A DIRECT HIT IN SIMULATED FIRE!

Türkiye’s first unmanned fighter aircraft, Bayraktar KIZILELMA, has carried out yet another historic test in the sky. In the test conducted with the participation of two F-16 fighter jets of the Turkish Air Force, KIZILELMA locked onto the target F-16 using the national AESA Radar MURAD, and...

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Yasar_TR]

What has been occupying me for a long time with Baykar regarding engine construction is how they imagine building an engine from scratch without experience and know-how. Also, they have set the measuring plate very high: a jet engine with an afterburner. The whole thing seems very, very questionable to me. What comes to mind: they are up to something we don’t know, or they have acquired quite a bit from the Ukrainians (engineering, technical knowledge, etc.) with money.

A jet engine with an afterburner... requires a hell of a lot. Even upgrading the TF6000 to the TF10000 involves a great deal of knowledge and work. Things are not as simple as in YouTube videos.

I fully agree with everything you say. Turbofan engine is one of the hardest technologies one can acquire. If you are building a 6000/10000lbf dry/wet thrust engine you are probably at the first steps. If you are envisaging building a 12000/20000lbf dry/wet thrust engine, then you are half way up the steps as achievement goes. If you are aiming to build a 20000/30000lbf dry/wet engine then you are aiming for the pinnacle of turbofans.

The bigger the diameter and the higher the thrust level gets, then the more difficult it becomes to achieve success. This has a lot to do with engineering and material science requirements of bigger engines. It is a fact that an average and optimistic 10year time period that you have to allow yourself to achieve your goal when building a new and “modern” turbofan with all the bells and whistles is normal.

Baykar is aiming for a 12000/20000lbf dry/wet turbofan engine. To do justice to a stealthy jet like KE, they need an engine that is stealthy too (like tf6000) with modern technologies like blisks applied to that engine.

Ukranian engines were produced with almost obsolete Soviet technology that did not even have single crystal turbine blades. Also the Motor Sich factory that manufactured their engines never built any fighter jet engines more than 6000/10000lbf dry/wet thrust. To expect anything more from that factory or it’s broken up/leftover staff, is being far too optimistic.

If you give the job to a reputable engine manufacturer to build engines for you to your own specifications, then they become prohibitively expensive. (Israel’s F124 Honeywell engines or UAE’s F110GE132 engines). So logical route for the sort out quantities Baykar will need, will have to be engines produced in house or make use of TEI facilities.
Even though Piaggio manufactures engine parts for large engine manufacturers, to be able to manufacture a complete turbofan is a different thing altogether.

Selcuk Bayraktar is a clever guy. He knows everything that is said here. To come up and say that they are going to have an engine in 5-6 years is either a publicity stunt or they have a factory stashed up somewhere no one knows about. Or he is going to use TEI facilities to develop something after TF10000.
His best bet would be to build a twin engined version of KE with twin TF10000 engines.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Moreover, if KALE itself admits that it took them 10 years to be able to deliver the TJ Series....

The collaboration with BAYKAR/PIAGGIO does not include technology transfer. Often it was about Baykar being SAFE.

SAFE from the dangers of a power change in Turkey; SAFE to secure European orders as a European company.

 

[TR_123456]

What has been occupying me for a long time with Baykar regarding engine construction is how they imagine building an engine from scratch without experience and know-how. Also, they have set the measuring plate very high: a jet engine with an afterburner. The whole thing seems very, very questionable to me. What comes to mind: they are up to something we don’t know, or they have acquired quite a bit from the Ukrainians (engineering, technical knowledge, etc.) with money.

A jet engine with an afterburner... requires a hell of a lot. Even upgrading the TF6000 to the TF10000 involves a great deal of knowledge and work. Things are not as simple as in YouTube videos.

They could have gotten the TF6000 blueprints and papers/notes of the work on the TF10000 from TEI brand it as inhouse development and give it a new name.
TEI is busy on the TF10000,no?

 

[OPTIMUS]

They could have gotten the TF6000 blueprints and papers/notes of the work on the TF10000 from TEI brand it as inhouse development and give it a new name.
TEI is busy on the TF10000,no?

Impossible..

They even pay for every F16 flight hour.

 

[TR_123456]

Impossible..

They even pay for every F16 flight hour.

Yes,officially they do.

 

[boredaf]

Lads, can we be realistic for a second, instead of blindly optimistic?

At the moment, there are exactly 2 countries on the planet that has 5th generation jet engines. One of them, China, has only just recently started its serial production, despite having decades of building jet engines and having the chance to get "inspiration" from US. And US, achieved that after decades and billions. Russia has just shown their engine in public but I don't think they have flown it yet, Rolls Royce made a demonstrator for F-35 project as far as I can remember. And TEI has just started TF6K, working on TF10K and possibly in advanced design process of TF35K.

All of these countries and companies either have extensive history and experience in the field, none of them including TEI suddenly jumped to 5th gen. I find the idea that Baykar can suddenly make a 5th gen 20k thrust in a timescale that would make it relevant to our urgent needs is utterly ridiculous. I'm sure people are going to disagree and I expect to get the usual "angry" rating from the same people, but even if they manage to poach some talent from other companies, which is not a given AT ALL, it would take insane amount of time to design, master all the necessary techniques to built one and test it. And not to mention creating all of that infrastructure and talent would take billions and billions, far more than Baykar has ever spent OR made.

Third iteration of KE was revealed as a two engine one at the time, it is far more reasonable to keep to that plan with dual TF10Ks than to expect a miracle of engineering and aviation.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Yes,officially they do.

It's really a shame!!

BAYKAR does not want and must not provide an open target for certain political parties.

But ultimately, this makes BAYKAR products more expensive abroad. Baykar recoups all expenses through sales.

In other countries, many things are made available for such tests for free. Like the German Air Force back then provided their F-104 for free. Or in the USA, the Navy makes many things available for the film industry for free. Or again in Germany, when the FRONHOF Institute wants to conduct tests, we provide fire department, police, and THW support.

For BAYKAR, something like that is unfortunately suicide. If you consider that its own companies were boycotted in their own country.

If Turkish BAYKAR products become more expensive as a result, we also need to know who benefits from that. Just think about it.

 

[TR_123456]

It's really a shame!!

BAYKAR does not want and must not provide an open target for certain political parties.

But ultimately, this makes BAYKAR products more expensive abroad. Baykar recoups all expenses through sales.

In other countries, many things are made available for such tests for free. Like the German Air Force back then provided their F-104 for free. Or in the USA, the Navy makes many things available for the film industry for free. Or again in Germany, when the FRONHOF Institute wants to conduct tests, we provide fire department, police, and THW support.

For BAYKAR, something like that is unfortunately suicide. If you consider that its own companies were boycotted in their own country.

If Turkish BAYKAR products become more expensive as a result, we also need to know who benefits from that. Just think about it.

It doesnt matter how it is,it will always be seen as favorism.
Lets be realists here,there is no Baykar product better then what TAI produces.
Baykar is good for export,thats all.

 

[Zafer]

It doesnt matter how it is,it will always be seen as favorism.
Lets be realists here,there is no Baykar product better then what TAI produces.
Baykar is good for export,thats all.

TAI is a laggard, Baykar is a gogetter.

 

[TR_123456]

TAI is a laggard, Baykar is a gogetter.

TAI is state owned,it can go slow.
Baykar is not,it needs to earn to develop.

 

[OPTIMUS]

In Turkey, this comparison between BAYKAR and TAI comes up very often. It's like comparing apples and oranges. BAYKAR, of course, has to be good for export, but the same goes for everyone else. That’s the alpha and omega for the success of any company. Years ago, I read an analysis of ASELSAN, I believe it was by Arda M. At that time, ASELSAN was declared dead because this company received a very high share of its orders domestically. Since then, ASELSAN has expanded internationally and is achieving success stories. And BAYKAR's products aren't bad either. In the end, they have driven many competitors out of the market. That doesn’t happen with poor products. TAI's products are better… etc., these are claims without facts.


For example, AKSUNGUR... I still can't believe that such a poor product came from a company that used to assemble and partly produce the F-16.

Admittedly, BAYKAR, like all privately operated companies worldwide, benefits from certain advantages. However, these advantages come from freedom of movement in gray areas and agility in decision-making. TAI can't do that.

Gentlemen, I have followed all the production work on ANKA. TAI had such a difficult birth, you wouldn't believe it. How many times the wing designs were changed, how many times the outer skin was made thinner, how many times, how many times, how many times... and they did the same with HÜRKUS and HÜRJET. Thank God HÜRJET is now an EU product, so TAI can no longer change anything.


As far as state aid is concerned, the Turkish president personally intervened for TAI in some African countries, resulting in one being purchased for HÜRKUS.

 

[OPTIMUS]

I could spend an hour at the computer writing about how TAI has been favored by the Turkish state in unmanned systems since 1997 and has enjoyed all the advantages.

Even TAI received aid from PAKISTAN for the ANKA project so that the bird would get proper wings. The events that happened in the ANKA project are enough for a Hollywood movie.

That’s why no one should say here that BAYKAR is being favored. Another company would have long since left the country and never come back.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

It doesnt matter how it is,it will always be seen as favorism.
Lets be realists here,there is no Baykar product better then what TAI produces.
Baykar is good for export,thats all.

Akinci is a platform that definitely outperforms TAI's drone in all areas; Aksungur cannot compete with it.