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TR Air-Force EF Typhoon

mehmed beg

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I
Oman can't maintain and operate its fleet, those fighters are useless for them.
After Iran got dealt a huge blow only security risk of Qatar is Israel. By giving weapons to us, they are indirectly managing that risk. As they can't directly confront Israel even when Israel hits their capital.
I understand that, but nevertheless, it is still comedian act. Another thing is , I believe, both Qatari and Omani air forces will intensify their training with THK , mostly on their own costs. That is in my opinion very very important thing. Hopefully RAF too.
 
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TR_123456

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It must said, that Qatar and Oman deserve a great praise.
Living in those geographies and getting rid of od 2 squadrons of their premier air assets is truly noble act.
Probably, even the prices were as reasonable as possible.
Oman must have made some kind of protection deal with Türkiye,similar to the one Qatar made.
 

uçuyorum

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Solid delivery plan. The new production ones will take a long time, but Qatari fighters could arrive as soon as next year and 2028 for Aesa modernized Omani fighters, that's pretty good. If we get 24 by 2029, further deliveries of the remaining 20 year by year is Ok
 

boredaf

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First of all, I checked some of the latest orders for T5 Eurofighters and all of them have their deliveries starting from 2030, so, that's pretty much going according to plan. I checked the prices as well while looking at them and again, they are comparable, too.

Second, if we are going to be able to integrate our own weapons, that raises some interesting questions. This diagram seems to show the latest payload options for Eurofighter:

pxx4jl31smxf1.jpeg

For me, the most important question is, how much can we play around with this?

For example, what's the load limit of hard points under the carriage? Meteor is 190 kg, 3.65 metre long and its diameter is almost 180 mm. Can it be pushed to carry a 230 kg missile with 230 mm diameter? Because if it can, that would mean our EFs can fly with 6 EF-230 ballistic missile (Ef variant of UAV-230, obviously) and that would give them a pretty good ground strike capability. If not, can we make a, say, EF-180 and use it instead, because I think people in Roketsan can do that in their sleep.

Or, can we build a pod for Eren and use it instead of Brimstone? It is lighter and thinner than Brimstone, albeit a bit longer. For the same weight, one could have 4 Eren in it, so EF could strike from 100+ km instead of 60 (with the new version of Brimstone).

It'll be fun to watch what we can do with EF.
 

Sanchez

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There were rumors regarding this but nothing official of course.

Turdef piece from last week is "official" enough as it's a written response from UK embassy. But nothing signed so far. "We are okay with this" and "It costs 500 million to integrate and certify all these weapons and will take 2 years from the start of this agreement" are different things after all.
 

Sanchez

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Re the training part, we don't know what kind of arrangement will they follow. Will we see a joint TurAF/Qatari or TurAF/RAF fleet like we saw in Qatar?
"Our Minister will receive the CEO of BAE Systems and the British Ambassador to Ankara today. Our Air Force Commander is scheduled to travel to Qatar on January 18-19 for a trilateral meeting with the British and Qatari Air Force Commanders regarding the Typhoon aircraft procurement.”

 

Yasar_TR

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There are more and more countries and airforces buying Rafale fighter jets during the last few years. Compared to Typhoons, Rafale is the jet fighter that's been opted for, by most.

One may obviously think why this is.

French offer a multi purpose plane. It is a good fighter that can accomplish both air to air combat and air to ground missions. So when you buy a plane like Rafale you are getting a fairly good Aesa radar, a twin engined fighter and a “Jack of all trades“ type of multi purpose plane. But it is unfortunately “master of none”. It is a more focused jet on air to ground missions. It has an operational navalised version. Plus, French offer good financial conditions and the plane is manufactured by a single country; Not a consortium of four who keep stepping on each other’s toes. (That alone is a big winner in its own right.)

A dedicated fighter is always going to be superior though. An air superiority fighter like Typhoon will always win in an air superiority contest. It can fly faster, higher and is more agile. Its ECRSMk2 radar is top notch and miles ahead of the RB2 on Rafale. It has also gradually been furnished with avionics and guidance systems to allow it to perform ground attack missions too. Its total payload may be lower than Rafale and its operational radius more limited as a multi role aircraft. But as an example, in BVR air to air combat, the superior Aesa radar alone gives a noticeable edge on firing Meteor missiles. It’s RCS is much smaller than it’s French counterpart.

Turkiye made the right choice to go the Typhoon route, when most of the adversaries it has in the region, fly Rafales. (Greece, Egypt, UAE, Serbia and possibly Iraq to buy 14 units). As well as bridging the gap between f16 to Kaan, Typhoons will be a good complementary fighter to Kaans in the years to come.
 

Yasar_TR

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"...oftentimes better than master of one." ;)
English saying is :

Jack of all trades master of none.

The Shakespearean follow up that makes it a positive compliment is lost overtime.

If you are trying to say that Rafale is better in a2a warfare than a Eurofighter than I must ask you to prove it.
 

Afif

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It’s RCS is much smaller than it’s French counterpart.

This isn't verified. At least I couldn't find any credible source. If you have some, please do share. It is also of particular interest to me given BAF's choice of Typhoon over Rafale.
 

Yasar_TR

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This isn't verified. At least I couldn't find any credible source. If you have some, please do share. It is also of particular interest to me given BAF's choice of Typhoon over Rafale.
None of the modern jet fighters’ RCSs are verified. These are all classified information. There are only assumptions and information seeped in to the grapevine either half correctly or erroneously by most probably manufacturers themselves, to improve their products’ sale potentials.

Typhoons engine ducts are designed so that the frontal radar cross section is minimal. Even the wing, canard, and fin leading edges, are highly swept so they will reflect radar energy well away from the front. Some experts put the frontal RCS to be lower then 0.5m2, approaching 0.01m2 and even lower. The weapons are embedded in to the back in the fuselage and also in the back part of the wings.
Most technically orientated experts put Typhoon frontal aspect RCS to be lower than Rafale's. Overall RCS levels of both fighters are assumed to be similar. What separates the Typhoon as superior plane, is the GaN hybrid Aesa radar it has in the form of the ECRS-MK2. This radar's EW capability gives it very high degree of electronic stealth.
No matter how much publicity the French make about Rafale, logically a radar with less than 850 T/R modules can never match a radar with more than 1600 T/R modules that uses GaN based technology.
Also my logic will not accept that, of a similarly designed bodied two planes one with 11000lbf dry thrust engines will outperform one with 13500lbf dry thrust.

I won't go in to the argumentative debate about how Rafales performed in the war against Chinese tech. But now Chinese authorities finally officially declared that their jets outperformed Rafales. That is a bold statement and again only verified by PAK and Chinese sources.

Turkish airforce is one of the most accomplished airforces in the world, and very meticulous in choosing equipment. If they didn’t think that they would have definite advantage over Greek Rafales, they would not have ordered such expensive planes.
 
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AlperTunga

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None of the modern jet fighters’ RCSs are verified. These are all classified information. There are only assumptions and information seeped in to the grapevine either half correctly or erroneously by most probably manufacturers themselves, to improve their products’ sale potentials.

Typhoons engine ducts are designed so that the frontal radar cross section is minimal. Even the wing, canard, and fin leading edges, are highly swept so they will reflect radar energy well away from the front. Some experts put the frontal RCS to be lower then 0.5m2, approaching 0.01m2 and even lower. The weapons are embedded in to the back in the fuselage and also in the back part of the wings.
Most technically orientated experts put Typhoon frontal aspect RCS to be lower than Rafale's. Overall RCS levels of both fighters are assumed to be similar. What separates the Typhoon as superior plane, is the GaN hybrid Aesa radar it has in the form of the ECRS-MK2. This radar's EW capability gives it very high degree of electronic stealth.
No matter how much publicity the French make about Rafale, logically a radar with less than 850 T/R modules can never match a radar with more than 1600 T/R modules that uses GaN based technology.
Also my logic will not accept that, of a similarly designed bodied two planes one with 11000lbf dry thrust engines will outperform one with 13500lbf dry thrust.

I won't go in to the argumentative debate about how Rafales performed in the war against Chinese tech. But now Chinese authorities finally officially declared that their jets outperformed Rafales. That is a bold statement and again only verified by PAK and Chinese sources.

Turkish airforce is one of the most accomplished airforces in the world, and very meticulous in choosing equipment. If they didn’t think that they would have definite advantage over Greek Rafales, they would not have ordered such expensive planes.
I don't want to discourage you but the enemy is not sleeping. I am 100% sure Greece will soon order 20 more F35 as well as 24 Rafale F5, called Super Rafale, that will be available by 2030. It has improvements everywhere and about its radar I found the following: The RBE2-XG is Thales' next-generation GaN-based Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar for the "Super Rafale" (F5 standard) fighter, an evolution of the current RBE2-AA, featuring significantly improved range (up to 30% more), better processing for multiple targets, enhanced anti-jamming, and superior detection of low-observable targets, boosting the Rafale's multi-role capabilities against modern threats. It is claimed to detect low observable targets from 200km, in the internet.
 

cr33pt3d

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The problem with the rafale is the engine, the plane is underpowered, public info. they are developing a more powerful engine ( T-REX program i guess ). until the engine hits the assembly line, the rafale is inferior to EF in radar and EW ( engine power => energy output ).
 

AlperTunga

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The problem with the rafale is the engine, the plane is underpowered, public info. they are developing a more powerful engine ( T-REX program i guess ). until the engine hits the assembly line, the rafale is inferior to EF in radar and EW ( engine power => energy output ).
Key Features of the M88 T-REX:
  • Increased Thrust: A 20% thrust boost, reaching 9 metric tons (19,841 lbs) with afterburner, improving acceleration and climb rates.
  • Internal Upgrades: Achieved through a more efficient low-pressure compressor, advanced materials and cooling for the high-pressure turbine, and optimized nozzle aerodynamics.
  • Supercruise Capability: Retains and enhances the ability to fly at supersonic speeds (Mach 1.4+) without the afterburner, conserving fuel and reducing infrared signature.
Context: The "Super Rafale" (F5 Standard):
  • The M88 T-REX is part of the larger F5 upgrade for the Rafale, making it the "Super Rafale".
  • This upgrade also includes a powerful new RBE2-XG AESA radar, an advanced electronic warfare suite (SPECTRA), and the integration of "loyal wingman" drones, enhancing situational awareness and combat effectiveness.
All available in 2030.

We should have 24 used plus 40 new EF in early 2030s.
 

Spitfire9

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I don't know, so I ask: from what distance can Typhoon AESA and Rafale AESA detect an aircraft with (say) a 0.1 sq m RCS? Any answers welcome.

PS More pertinent to Turkiye, from what range can Typhoon detect Rafale and vice versa?
 

uçuyorum

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I don't know, so I ask: from what distance can Typhoon AESA and Rafale AESA detect an aircraft with (say) a 0.1 sq m RCS? Any answers welcome.

PS More pertinent to Turkiye, from what range can Typhoon detect Rafale and vice versa?
We can't really know this, and my answer is speculation, but I'd expect that to be around 100km give or take 20?

But a few factors, rafale ew is told to be really good and it's rcs somewhat lower than typhoon. Typhon in turn has a larger radar than rafales which is much smaller closer to f16 size I guess. Plus weapon load changes the rcs
 

Huelague

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English saying is :

Jack of all trades master of none.

The Shakespearean follow up that makes it a positive compliment is lost overtime.

If you are trying to say that Rafale is better in a2a warfare than a Eurofighter than I must ask you to prove it.

You missed my point. The essence of the proverb means, “Jack of all trades - an Allrounder- Master of none, - No expert-, followed years later. But overtimes better than master of one, - sometimes better than an expert, last additional followed many years later.

What I want to say, sometimes you need an allrounder and sometimes it is better to have an expert.
@TR_123456
 
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