TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

hasanrize said:

The Turkish defense industry has a very big problem regarding foreign components. They keep providing components during the design and prototype phases. But then refused to sell them when the project reached the mass production phase.

This is what happened during Altay Project; even with the Korean engine, the tank had to be redesigned.
That happened smart micro munition project, we had to go back to the drawing board.
Only God knows how often drones got back to the design stage because some guy abroad refused to sell 50$ parts, so that section had to be redesigned.
Also, there are huge export restrictions. T129 Atak couldn't be sold to Pakistan because of USA refused to provide the engine. Eventually, China sold helicopters to Pakistan.

So, we come to TF-X. What can we do if Rolls-Royce refuses to sell engines when it comes to mass production? Returning TF-X to the design stage and going for another ten years because of engine issue is not something Turkey can stomach. There is simply no room for another Altay situation. And almost 70% of Turkish people are simply sure that the USA is not going to sell F-110 when it comes to mass production. That is the reason why Turkey insists on IP rights.

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"The Turkish defense industry has a very big problem regarding foreign components. They keep providing components during the design and prototype phases. But then refused to sell them when the project reached the mass production phase."

Bullseye

But people here still believe that UK or West will help Turkiye.......and Give high tech with IP rights...........Turkiye must understand "DO you job and make OWN product" or you WILL have to Cry, because it will be 100% like Altay tank Engine.

RTE will say again "we were deceived" = " kandırıldık"

Some of you are too reductively fixated on some temperatures and single crystal etc etc (without knowing much about the specifics of why creep is a larger field past just these soundbite words)

These soundbites are not indications of complete proficiency....and counting chickens before they hatch is not useful.

One look at SJR paper database on the field (and related fields) will give you idea of the volumes and intensity needed (published and demonstrated) on lot of things....and what can be correlated to a countries final proven competency in the field.

If RR and others are being approached, there are clearly areas needing to be bridged....this is natural for any development process.

Use occam's razor.

TheInsider said:

This is right to some extent, but you are comparing apples with oranges. You should compare TS-1400 with CTS800. A turbofan engine suitable for TFX is inherently different than a turboshaft engine. I don't think current single crystal blades will have any problems up to ~1600 degrees celsius when used in a turbofan engine. Bigger turbine blades mean better heat dissipation and better cooling channels can be applied to the blade when there is more area to play with.

Don't forget we can sit at the same table with RR and ask for ridiculous things because of our own single crystal technology. Even if we get a deal with RR the engine will be produced with Turkish single crystal blades as no company would offer their own blade technology for a foreign engine.

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I am not comparing TS-1400 with anything!
But All I am saying is ; Producing TS-1400 doesn’t automatically mean that we can manufacture a F110 size engine that easily. It involves a lot more than a small diameter engine needs.
How do you know if current crystal Blades are problem free up to 1600degrees Celcius when the most relevant person Dr Aksit himself says they are good to 1400degrees Celsius?

quote:
These parts are suitable for working at temperatures up to 1400 ° C with their extremely sensitive cooling channel designs, and an important step was taken thanks to the simultaneous development of single crystal castings, subsequent heat treatment and non-destructive control methods.
unquote.

Bigger turbine blades mean heavier blades. Heavier means more stress as they are rotating at high speed and high temperature, and “creep” occurring quicker. Because of larger blades and higher temperatures, engineering tolerances are more demanding. Also larger cooling channels cut, detracts from the crystal’s strength. So it is a double edged razor blade in a way.
Exactly! Due to our capability to produce single crystal blades, we have better bargaining position. Just like T-700 engines, we should ask to incorporate our tech in to the engine as we become more proficient with new technologies.

How do you know if current crystal Blades are problem free up to 1600degrees Celcius when the most relevant person Dr Aksit himself says they are good to 1400degrees Celsius?

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Advanced thermal barriers will be added and more optimized cooling canals will be drilled on the same single crystal composition.

TS-1400 blades in this picture are good up to 1400 degree celsius as Prof. Akşit says because there are nearly no cooling canals on the blades as it is not needed. The material itself can endure that temperature range without anything fancy. You can also see how thin they are because less force is applied to them. You can compare the thickness of the single crystal blade in the second picture. In short, single crystal blades will be thicker to overcome extra forces due to a bigger diameter of the TFX engine. Advanced cooling canals will be drilled and advanced thermal barrier coatings will be applied which are suitable for the national engine of TFX but the blades will be the same single crystal structure.


This is what blades for the national TF-X engine will look like.

TheInsider said:

Advanced cooling canals will be drilled and advanced thermal barrier coatings will be applied

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You see, you just expect this to happen A B C with no issues at a larger scale up.

Do you even know what creep is fundamentally?

Does Turkey produce the capital machinery for every process flow governing it? Or are there acquisitions for expedience there?

Maybe you can tell me just for the drilling process, how many failures happened at pratt for it (when we establish innovate something here)....how many engineers have had to revisit it in the RnD tiers.

The crack initiation points and achieving quality control with that.

If its so easily scaled, the Russian (And Chinese) engines (simply going upon single crystal + temperature soundbite) would have same TBO and MRO reliability/assurance as West by now surely? What is the stage of their capital machinery research? What are the costs and efficiencies?

There is something you are overlooking in basic way as things become bigger relative to preset phenomenon. Why is an ant able to lift so many more times its body weight compared to us humans? How this apply here to significant stresses imposed especially imperfect geometries (given single crystal solves imperfect material issue to large degree).

TheInsider said:

Advanced thermal barriers will be added and more optimized cooling canals will be drilled on the same single crystal composition.

TS-1400 blades in this picture are good up to 1400 degree celsius as Prof. Akşit says because there are nearly no cooling canals on the blades as it is not needed. The material itself can endure that temperature range without anything fancy.

This is what blades for the national TF-X engine will look like.

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If you check what I shared above:
quote:
These parts are suitable for working at temperatures up to 1400 ° C with their extremely sensitive cooling channel designs, and an important step was taken thanks to the simultaneous development of single crystal castings, subsequent heat treatment and non-destructive control methods.
unquote.
The actual turbine blades of one engine will be different to another engine’s turbine blades, of course.
But below are the blades of the ts1400 engine that they had as a complete set. Presumably a high pressure set and a low pressure set.






So these blades were cut with special cooling channels and a heat resistant application was applied before they performed to required 1400 degrees. When finished they would have similar looking cooling channels to the blade in your second picture. Just smaller.

Here is a GE high pressure turbine blade picture belonging to a turbofan engine. So they do look very different.


Here are some single Crystal turbine blades . They all look different. It is a matter of design.

TheInsider said:

Advanced thermal barriers will be added and more optimized cooling canals will be drilled on the same single crystal composition.

TS-1400 blades in this picture are good up to 1400 degree celsius as Prof. Akşit says because there are nearly no cooling canals on the blades as it is not needed. The material itself can endure that temperature range without anything fancy. You can also see how thin they are because less force is applied to them. You can compare the thickness of the single crystal blade in the second picture. In short, single crystal blades will be thicker to overcome extra forces due to a bigger diameter of the TFX engine. Advanced cooling canals will be drilled and advanced thermal barrier coatings will be applied which are suitable for the national engine of TFX but the blades will be the same single crystal structure.

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I am sorry to say that what you are writing here has no scientific basis and is not even worth answering.
Please don’t write anymore because it is looking silly!

TheInsider said:

Advanced thermal barriers will be added and more optimized cooling canals will be drilled on the same single crystal composition.

TS-1400 blades in this picture are good up to 1400 degree celsius as Prof. Akşit says because there are nearly no cooling canals on the blades as it is not needed. The material itself can endure that temperature range without anything fancy. You can also see how thin they are because less force is applied to them. You can compare the thickness of the single crystal blade in the second picture. In short, single crystal blades will be thicker to overcome extra forces due to a bigger diameter of the TFX engine. Advanced cooling canals will be drilled and advanced thermal barrier coatings will be applied which are suitable for the national engine of TFX but the blades will be the same single crystal structure.

This is what blades for the national TF-X engine will look like.

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Bullshit no SCB can withstand temp upto 1400c without TBC and cooling holes.

Understandable it looks a little creepy to foreigners when Turkish made crystals shine.

Zafer said:

Understandable it sounds a little creepy to foreigners when Turkish made crystals shine.

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Or maybe two of you are making yourselves look like complete fools. No matter how patriotic and nationalistic you are, you can't go against the laws of physics and engineering, full stop.

Zafer said:

Turns out that 1600 °C was the record temperature in quite recent year of 2011, by MHI.

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On an industrial gas turbine, that has a very different operating parameters and characteristics to aviation gas turbines. Aviation gas turbines, especially the military low bypass turbofans runs significantly hotter than their civilian and industrial counterparts due to their nature. US achieved 2000 K in the 8~90s. There are debates regarding F135 operating temperatures but certain literatures go as far as 2200 K. 1600 C, or 1870 K is not even close to industry "record".

Zafer said:

Understandable it sounds a little creepy to foreigners when Turkish made crystals shine.

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You're sinking low with these kind of comments. Show some quality.

Windchime said:

Or maybe two of you are making yourselves look like complete fools. No matter how patriotic and nationalistic you are, you can't go against the laws of physics and engineering full stop.

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While there is so much secrecy and intense efforts of development what proof do you have to assert otherwise about the state of Turkish technology, such a pile of preconception you are spewing. I never asserted that only existing technology is to be employed. You need to have every detail of the product to assert that it is against laws of physics which you don't.

Zafer said:

While there is so much secrecy and intense efforts of development what proof do you have to assert otherwise about the state of Turkish technology, such a pile of preconception you are spewing. I never asserted that only existing technology is to be employed. You need to have every detail of the product to assert that it is against laws of physics which you don't.

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I'm sorry to make you face truth, but if you want to argue something exists, it must be the one arguing, that such thing exist, that prove his point, not the one questioning. In this case, you and that other fella, who are saying that the technologies developed for the 1600K TIT TS1400 is enough for applications on higher TIT gas turbines without any supporting data, are the ones who should prove that could work and that Turkey possess, or will possess necessary technologies to develop a 30,000 lbf thrust turbofan, not us who are questioning based on known facts.

Also like I've said in the previous pages, I'm reserving my assessment on Turkish gas turbine technology since I'm not as knowledgeable about it, other than what public figures tell in the interviews so you're unfortunately hitting a strawman.

Zafer said:

While there is so much secrecy and intense efforts of development what proof do you have to assert otherwise about the state of Turkish technology, such a pile of preconception you are spewing. I never asserted that only existing technology is to be employed. You need to have every detail of the product to assert that it is against laws of physics which you don't.

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Delusional you are talking without facts.

Windchime said:

I'm sorry to make you face truth, but if you want to argue something exists, it must be the one arguing, that such thing exist, that prove his point, not the one questioning. In this case, you and that other fella, who are saying that the technologies developed for the 1600K TIT TS1400 is enough for applications on higher TIT gas turbines without any supporting data, are the ones who should prove that could work and that Turkey possess, or will possess necessary technologies to develop a 30,000 lbf thrust turbofan, not us who are questioning based on known facts.

Also like I've said in the previous pages, I'm reserving my assessment on Turkish gas turbine technology since I'm not as knowledgeable about it, other than what public figures tell in the interviews so you're unfortunately hitting a strawman.

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Nobody needs to prove you anything, it is you asserting that we don't have the technology while there is lots of work still in progress. I have been at one of the meetings in one of the universities where some of the technologies were brought up and it was more than two years ago.

I am confident that Türkiye does not need involvement of any foreign party for development of the TFX engine.

Zafer said:

Nobody needs to prove you anything, it is you asserting that we don't have the technology while there is lots of work still in progress. I have been at one of the meetings in one of the universities where some of the technologies were brought up and it was more than two years ago.

I am confident that Türkiye does not need involvement of any foreign party for development of the TFX engine.

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I mean I disagree... but we will see. Too early to speak. In the meantime I think we should calm down a bit Let's not turn this into Twitter plz

Zafer said:

Nobody needs to prove you anything, it is you asserting that we don't have the technology while there is lots of work still in progress. I have been at one of the meetings in one of the universities where some of the technologies were brought up and it was more than two years ago.

I am confident that Türkiye does not need involvement of any foreign party for development of the TFX engine.

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You are delusional HOW WE DON'T NEED ANY FOREIGN INVOLMENT?? WE DIDN'T EVEN PRODUCE ANY JET ENGINES holy shit man

Without RR this project is doomed to fail

In the age of technology, it is not as difficult to achieve technology as it used to be, but what is even worse is that the people of the country do not believe in their own institutions and organizations, scientists.