TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

Anastasius said:

I wonder if the US interest in bringing Turkiye back into the F-35 program has to do more with tapping the country's manufacturing potential. It has attempted to shift Turkiye's role in the program to some other nations but from what I hear that isn't going as well as the US hoped.

I suspect Turkiye's return is inevitable but the government is trying to extract maximum concessions from the US in negotiations before an agreement is reached.

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I really don't have much of a strong opinion on this one.
But would welcome it, just to see certain nations/people reaction and crying.

Since 2023, China has imposed export controls on antimony, gallium, germanium, graphite, and heavy rare-earth elements, creating upstream bottlenecks, leading to over 300 F-35s being delivered without its new AN/APG-85 radar due to a lack of gallium.

Bogeyman said:

Since 2023, China has imposed export controls on antimony, gallium, germanium, graphite, and heavy rare-earth elements, creating upstream bottlenecks, leading to over 300 F-35s being delivered without its new AN/APG-85 radar due to a lack of gallium.

China-Proofing the American Industrial Base

Economic Security Essay Contest Winner!

www.chinatalk.media

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Not really sure if 300 but the main issue is that the radar is to big thats the main issue other wise the block 3 is fine

What is happening?

Pete Mitchell Maverick said:

What is happening?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2074166043375796542

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its not happening only when s400 solution is found but even than its unlikely

ther is something going on behind the wall.

Israeli media outlet i24NEWS:

Israel is concerned that Trump will establish an aircraft maintenance center on Turkish soil.

The last thing we want is for these F-35s to fall into Turkish hands.

The moment they receive these aircraft, they will learn all their weaknesses.

If we are forced to send F-35 engines to the Turks for maintenance, the Turks might say, "We are not giving them back to you."

Pokemonte13 said:

its not happening only when s400 solution is found but even than its unlikely

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It is certainly not an issue that can be easily resolved, but judging by the statements coming from Israel, it appears they have lost their influence over Trump particularly regarding Turkey. Their hands are tied concerning the F110s, and they seem to be struggling with the F-35 issue as well.

Netanyahu appeared on Fox News today, practically pleading with Trump not to provide the F110s and F-35s to Türkiye.

It seems that Trump holds views on Turkey that are diametrically opposed to those of Israel.

Bogeyman said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2074201463686050191

Israeli media outlet i24NEWS:

Israel is concerned that Trump will establish an aircraft maintenance center on Turkish soil.

The last thing we want is for these F-35s to fall into Turkish hands.

The moment they receive these aircraft, they will learn all their weaknesses.

If we are forced to send F-35 engines to the Turks for maintenance, the Turks might say, "We are not giving them back to you."

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So they wish to resume F35 from where they left.

F35 has Israel made components, won't fly without Israel's consent.

Zafer said:

F35 has Israel made components, won't fly without Israel's consent.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2074822642645733797

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Lol, Israel would see a ban hammer of epic proportions that would make CAATSA look like a joke if that route were to be taken. There are no other IP owners in F-35. It's completely US owned. They are at best designed to spec even if they were built abroad, and most "Israeli" components are built in US by US based Israeli firms, entirely beholden to US laws.

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Nice grouping of senators that visited the summit:

"
Bipartisan Congressional delegation to @NATO Summit sounds bullish on the Trump Administration bringing Turkey back into the F-35 program:
@RepMikeTurner: "The details that we have--that have been shared with us, that it does appear to be promising."
@SenatorShaheen: "If there is an acceptable way to deal with the S400 and the threat that that poses to the technology in the F35, and there is satisfactory agreement on the part of all parties about that, then I think having Turkey back in the F-35 program would be a positive development, both for Türkiye and for the United States. But we still have questions to answer with respect to what's being proposed, and we haven't gotten those answers. So we will wait and see what happens."
@MikeRounds: "Türkiye is a major NATO contributor, and anything that we can do to provide them with the resources to be an even stronger adversary with regard incursions by Russia in Europe, the better off we all are. And one of those is to have that tool, of the F-35."

We should be content with the engines if we get them.
F-35 is not going to happen.

It is going to get even worse

Israel has a new act of owning the US military

United States-Israel Defense Technology Cooperation Initiative

... lays the groundwork for bilateral research and development, co-production of weapons, joint ventures, licensing agreements, and seemingly every manner of US-Israeli military-industrial complex cooperation.

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Nothing you buy from the US maybe American

TR_123456 said:

We should be content with the engines if we get them.
F-35 is not going to happen.

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Türkiye should order more than 80 F110 engines.

Angry Turk !!! said:

Türkiye should order more than 80 F110 engines.

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Lets get the 80 first.

Pete Mitchell Maverick said:

It is certainly not an issue that can be easily resolved, but judging by the statements coming from Israel, it appears they have lost their influence over Trump particularly regarding Turkey. Their hands are tied concerning the F110s, and they seem to be struggling with the F-35 issue as well.

Netanyahu appeared on Fox News today, practically pleading with Trump not to provide the F110s and F-35s to Türkiye.

It seems that Trump holds views on Turkey that are diametrically opposed to those of Israel.

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It's all theatre directed mainly towards the domestic American audience. They are trying to portray Israel as being having less influence and control than it does. Note that he's speaking on Fox News. From the statement by Trump, to this media outing by Netenyahu, you should assume that it is all deliberate and coordinated.

No, having more than 80 F-110 engines doesn’t make sense. What’s more, in an emergency, you could still assemble at least 8–10 yourself from spare parts in the depot. On top of that, there are the engines from the 5–6 prototypes, which are practically new and will easily last 5–6 years or more, even with intensive use after the prototype phase.
That would make just under 100 F-110 engines for just under 50 aircraft – that’s enough for the Block 10 and Block 20 variants.
The aim, after all, is to break free from this dependency, not to sink even deeper into it...

The Greeks cannot simply pull 40 to 50 F-35s out of a hat by 2030; for them, the upper limit is a maximum of 50 to 60 aircraft, spread over a period of 10 to 15 years. The maintenance costs are exorbitantly high; even extremely wealthy EU countries are only willing to afford a maximum of 50 to 60 aircraft – it is simply too expensive.

TR_123456 said:

We should be content with the engines if we get them.
F-35 is not going to happen.

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It is in a way better that it doesn’t happen.
More funds for Kaan and related investments.
Another push in the back for our defence industry.
Less hassle for us later re possible US control over our defence matters.

OK we may not have access to the US 5th gen tech. But as it is we are past that point to a certain degree anyway.

Zafer said:

F35 has Israel made components, won't fly without Israel's consent.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2074822642645733797

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The main operating system, all of codes, logistics network control and organization, software supervision, and any critical authority that could ground an aircraft in the F-35 program are directly under the control of the US government and the contractor, Lockheed.

Countries producing parts, such as Israel, the Netherlands, the UK, or Australia, have no administrative or operational authority over the ODIN system. ODIN is a cloud-based logistics and mission planning network. Only the US Joint Program Office (JPO) and Lockheed Martin control which parts an aircraft needs, from which warehouse and when those parts will arrive, and whether the aircraft is airworthy. Israel is the only country with the privilege of integrating its own local software into its ordered aircraft (F-35I Adir) with US permission, but it cannot interfere with the global ODIN network.

Israel is not one of the founding partners (Tier 1, 2, or 3) of the project; it has "Security Cooperation Participant" (SCP) status. However, Israeli companies are major producers in two very critical subsystems in the global supply chain. Israel Aerospace Industries manufactures outer wing components for all global F-35 fleets. And, Helmet-Mounted Display System (HMDS) Visors: Elbit Systems, in partnership with Rockwell Collins, manufactures the visors and display subsystems for the helmet technology that pilots use to control the aircraft and provides 360-degree vision.

Because Israel owns the intellectual property (IP) for these parts, it can say, "You cannot sell this part to Türkiye or country X" (political veto). However, technically, they are not "the only/indispensable" option. If the US wishes, it can bypass Israel by expanding Lockheed Martin's own production lines in the US or production lines in other allied countries. This is a very serious move that will directly affect both the production line and the ODIN system, and will create deep complications in its relations with the US. Israel, especially since it is vitally dependent on the US to rapidly replenish its armed forces' ammunition stocks and inventory, cannot afford to engage in such a high-level dispute.

The parts produced by Türkiye in past not sold to a single country, but distributed within a global supply chain to manufacturers in the US (Lockheed Martin), Israel, Australia, and some European countries. And even years later, supply problems persist for a portion of this work share. In Türkiye, TAI (TUSAŞ) was producing critical components of the F-35, including the center fuselage, composite outer coverings, and weapon bay covers. Kale Aviation was also producing landing gear components and locking mechanisms. We had quite extensive industrial involvement; there's no need to go into that in detail again, just as a similar example: for the Panoramic Cockpit Display Electronic Cards and Missile Remote Interface Unit (MRIU) components, we were the sole supplier within JSF. When Turkiye was removed from the program, the production burden and expanded orders for some of these parts were shifted to Israeli (IAI) and US subcontractors with similar industrial infrastructure.

At worst, we will acquire 5-6 of our aircraft and modernize them. If a combat fleet is to be established – bcs all our infrastructure is ready – Turkish aircraft will have a different HMDS within my humble opinion.

In short, the retired US officer's argument is completely flawed from a logistical standpoint. It doesn't matter who produces the part because once it's manufactured, ownership passes to Lockheed Martin and it's distributed by the US via the ODIN system. Israel's blocking of deliveries for systems where it's the sole producer affects the entire program, and its vetoing of intellectual property rights leads to the use of alternative suppliers. Therefore, this political blackmail is not a strong basis given the nature of the program. What the retired officer in this video is doing is largely an attempt to appease public opinion (especially Zionist circles). We won't fall for this bluff, because in the past our position was that if we were removed from the F-35 industrial ecosystem, the project would face difficulties; it did have some impact on costs, but the project somehow continued.

Yasar_TR said:

It is in a way better that it doesn’t happen.
More funds for Kaan and related investments.
Another push in the back for our defence industry.
Less hassle for us later re possible US control over our defence matters.

OK we may not have access to the US 5th gen tech. But as it is we are past that point to a certain degree anyway.

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Who said we could buy 40 F-35s? They will only give us the F-35s produced for us. Even the US itself can't produce radars for its newly manufactured F-35-A fighter jets. Even if they could, there are problems with radar cooling. There are US presidential elections in two years. So we can only add 6 aircraft to our inventory before the elections. Meanwhile, the aircraft produced for us were purchased by the US Air Force. The aircraft were modified for US use. So they are no longer "export versions." The aircraft will be modified again for us. Then we will send the pilots who will use the aircraft for training. So those aircraft will only be delivered in 1.5 years.

We will use the aircraft that arrive in 1.5 years at most to identify shortcomings in the Kaan project. It is impossible for these aircraft to become a strategic asset for the Turkish Air Force.