TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

TR_123456 said:

We should be content with the engines if we get them.
F-35 is not going to happen.

Click to expand...

Türkiye should order more than 80 F110 engines.

Angry Turk !!! said:

Türkiye should order more than 80 F110 engines.

Click to expand...

Lets get the 80 first.

Pete Mitchell Maverick said:

It is certainly not an issue that can be easily resolved, but judging by the statements coming from Israel, it appears they have lost their influence over Trump particularly regarding Turkey. Their hands are tied concerning the F110s, and they seem to be struggling with the F-35 issue as well.

Netanyahu appeared on Fox News today, practically pleading with Trump not to provide the F110s and F-35s to Türkiye.

It seems that Trump holds views on Turkey that are diametrically opposed to those of Israel.

Click to expand...

It's all theatre directed mainly towards the domestic American audience. They are trying to portray Israel as being having less influence and control than it does. Note that he's speaking on Fox News. From the statement by Trump, to this media outing by Netenyahu, you should assume that it is all deliberate and coordinated.

No, having more than 80 F-110 engines doesn’t make sense. What’s more, in an emergency, you could still assemble at least 8–10 yourself from spare parts in the depot. On top of that, there are the engines from the 5–6 prototypes, which are practically new and will easily last 5–6 years or more, even with intensive use after the prototype phase.
That would make just under 100 F-110 engines for just under 50 aircraft – that’s enough for the Block 10 and Block 20 variants.
The aim, after all, is to break free from this dependency, not to sink even deeper into it...

The Greeks cannot simply pull 40 to 50 F-35s out of a hat by 2030; for them, the upper limit is a maximum of 50 to 60 aircraft, spread over a period of 10 to 15 years. The maintenance costs are exorbitantly high; even extremely wealthy EU countries are only willing to afford a maximum of 50 to 60 aircraft – it is simply too expensive.

TR_123456 said:

We should be content with the engines if we get them.
F-35 is not going to happen.

Click to expand...

It is in a way better that it doesn’t happen.
More funds for Kaan and related investments.
Another push in the back for our defence industry.
Less hassle for us later re possible US control over our defence matters.

OK we may not have access to the US 5th gen tech. But as it is we are past that point to a certain degree anyway.

Zafer said:

F35 has Israel made components, won't fly without Israel's consent.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2074822642645733797

Click to expand...

The main operating system, all of codes, logistics network control and organization, software supervision, and any critical authority that could ground an aircraft in the F-35 program are directly under the control of the US government and the contractor, Lockheed.

Countries producing parts, such as Israel, the Netherlands, the UK, or Australia, have no administrative or operational authority over the ODIN system. ODIN is a cloud-based logistics and mission planning network. Only the US Joint Program Office (JPO) and Lockheed Martin control which parts an aircraft needs, from which warehouse and when those parts will arrive, and whether the aircraft is airworthy. Israel is the only country with the privilege of integrating its own local software into its ordered aircraft (F-35I Adir) with US permission, but it cannot interfere with the global ODIN network.

Israel is not one of the founding partners (Tier 1, 2, or 3) of the project; it has "Security Cooperation Participant" (SCP) status. However, Israeli companies are major producers in two very critical subsystems in the global supply chain. Israel Aerospace Industries manufactures outer wing components for all global F-35 fleets. And, Helmet-Mounted Display System (HMDS) Visors: Elbit Systems, in partnership with Rockwell Collins, manufactures the visors and display subsystems for the helmet technology that pilots use to control the aircraft and provides 360-degree vision.

Because Israel owns the intellectual property (IP) for these parts, it can say, "You cannot sell this part to Türkiye or country X" (political veto). However, technically, they are not "the only/indispensable" option. If the US wishes, it can bypass Israel by expanding Lockheed Martin's own production lines in the US or production lines in other allied countries. This is a very serious move that will directly affect both the production line and the ODIN system, and will create deep complications in its relations with the US. Israel, especially since it is vitally dependent on the US to rapidly replenish its armed forces' ammunition stocks and inventory, cannot afford to engage in such a high-level dispute.

The parts produced by Türkiye in past not sold to a single country, but distributed within a global supply chain to manufacturers in the US (Lockheed Martin), Israel, Australia, and some European countries. And even years later, supply problems persist for a portion of this work share. In Türkiye, TAI (TUSAŞ) was producing critical components of the F-35, including the center fuselage, composite outer coverings, and weapon bay covers. Kale Aviation was also producing landing gear components and locking mechanisms. We had quite extensive industrial involvement; there's no need to go into that in detail again, just as a similar example: for the Panoramic Cockpit Display Electronic Cards and Missile Remote Interface Unit (MRIU) components, we were the sole supplier within JSF. When Turkiye was removed from the program, the production burden and expanded orders for some of these parts were shifted to Israeli (IAI) and US subcontractors with similar industrial infrastructure.

At worst, we will acquire 5-6 of our aircraft and modernize them. If a combat fleet is to be established – bcs all our infrastructure is ready – Turkish aircraft will have a different HMDS within my humble opinion.

In short, the retired US officer's argument is completely flawed from a logistical standpoint. It doesn't matter who produces the part because once it's manufactured, ownership passes to Lockheed Martin and it's distributed by the US via the ODIN system. Israel's blocking of deliveries for systems where it's the sole producer affects the entire program, and its vetoing of intellectual property rights leads to the use of alternative suppliers. Therefore, this political blackmail is not a strong basis given the nature of the program. What the retired officer in this video is doing is largely an attempt to appease public opinion (especially Zionist circles). We won't fall for this bluff, because in the past our position was that if we were removed from the F-35 industrial ecosystem, the project would face difficulties; it did have some impact on costs, but the project somehow continued.

Yasar_TR said:

It is in a way better that it doesn’t happen.
More funds for Kaan and related investments.
Another push in the back for our defence industry.
Less hassle for us later re possible US control over our defence matters.

OK we may not have access to the US 5th gen tech. But as it is we are past that point to a certain degree anyway.

Click to expand...

Who said we could buy 40 F-35s? They will only give us the F-35s produced for us. Even the US itself can't produce radars for its newly manufactured F-35-A fighter jets. Even if they could, there are problems with radar cooling. There are US presidential elections in two years. So we can only add 6 aircraft to our inventory before the elections. Meanwhile, the aircraft produced for us were purchased by the US Air Force. The aircraft were modified for US use. So they are no longer "export versions." The aircraft will be modified again for us. Then we will send the pilots who will use the aircraft for training. So those aircraft will only be delivered in 1.5 years.

We will use the aircraft that arrive in 1.5 years at most to identify shortcomings in the Kaan project. It is impossible for these aircraft to become a strategic asset for the Turkish Air Force.

dBSPL said:

At worst, we will acquire 5-6 of our aircraft and modernize them. If a combat fleet is to be established – bcs all our infrastructure is ready – Turkish aircraft will have a different HMDS within my humble opinion.

Click to expand...

If you can get the privilege to modernize than we can modernize the 6 that we had paid for making them the Turkish version. This effort would be for cooperation with other NATO members. Going forward Türkiye can only rely on our own technology in our weapon systems.

Says 6 but it is from memory I guess, not 5 but 6.

Zafer said:

If you can get the previlage to modernize than we can modernise the 6 that we had paid for making them the Turkish version. This effort would be for cooperation with other NATO members. Going forward Türkiye can only rely on our own technology in our weapon systems.

Click to expand...

What I mean is, the current aircraft are Block 3F standard and have TR-2 infrastructure. Specifically, to utilize advanced radar systems and electronic warfare capabilities (Block 4), they first need to be upgraded to the TR-3 (Technology Refresh 3) equipment package. Due to serious technical errors in the TR-3 and Block 4 software, full operational capacity will only be reached in 2031. The most critical problem is the supply crisis for the AN/APG-85 GaN radars. However, this new APG-85 radar has not yet been approved for export to allied countries. Therefore, Turkiye may be considering faster procurement by upgrading these aircraft with the AN/APG-81 radar and TR-3 system. So, if these aircraft are to be delivered, in my opinion, the cost of modernization (tens of millions of dollars per aircraft) and the delivery schedule will be the main subject of new negotiations with the US.

Yasar_TR said:

It is in a way better that it doesn’t happen.
More funds for Kaan and related investments.
Another push in the back for our defence industry.
Less hassle for us later re possible US control over our defence matters.

OK we may not have access to the US 5th gen tech. But as it is we are past that point to a certain degree anyway.

Click to expand...

Yeah,i dont trust the Israeli sub systems anyway.
Reminds me of the pagers in Lebanon.

TR_123456 said:

Yeah,i dont trust the Israel sub systems anyway.
Reminds me of the pagers in Lebanon.

Click to expand...

Parts produced by Israel for the aircraft are sent to US facilities for integration. Joint production is carried out for allied countries within Lockheed's quality standards. Regarding operational maintenance, the organization is entirely run through ODIN; supplier countries have no authority over this system. Israel can veto the use of its own parts or systems in Turkish aircraft, and that's the only thing it can do, if it's willing to accept the lateral complications it would create.

*

Personally, my view is that if a window of opportunity has opened, it won't be for long, and therefore, at least one F-35 fighter squadron should be created. Our information processing and physical infrastructure is already in place, ammunition compatibility is at its highest level, and the cost of six aircraft has already been paid; we won't incur as high a cost as some might think. Our only trade-off is that this fleet will not have autonomous operation capabilities as F-16 or EFT, which will require it to be positioned as a joint platform within the alliance, in line with the program's philosophy. However, an extra bonus is that it could provide the infrastructure for tactical and doctrinal studies, with fifth-generation jets forming the backbone, years before KAAN reaches operational level. The data that the air force will gather from this source could indirectly contribute to the development of KAAN. This will indeed provide an opportunity to measure whether we have built an aircraft that is better than the F-35.

@dBSPL ustat, @TR_123456 may have a point. When parts are produced, I remember they were being allocated for specific aircraft per order. So, for example, we knew when we produced our fuselages. (Common spare parts for general spares stocks may be a different issue).

TR_123456 said:

We should be content with the engines if we get them.
F-35 is not going to happen.

Click to expand...

Engines are near done, protest period ends tomorrow.

Bogeyman said:

They will only give us the F-35s produced for us.

Click to expand...

None at all. Giving only a handful aircraft to Turkey instead ensures they never become operational and are used as testbed for our own developments. If ^-35 transfer happens, it will be followed by a purchase of a total of 20-40 aircraft.

Bogeyman said:

Even the US itself can't produce radars for its newly manufactured F-35-A fighter jets.

Click to expand...

That radar in question is the new APG-85, only used on US models; they are not sharing that yet with anyone; but I'm sure there will be a push to keep Israeli "qualitative edge" and give it to them in future as well. Export deliveries continue without much problems.

İ listen F35 shit for some 15 years and if Türkiye buys them will be so stupid speding billions on aircraft that will be more danger to Turkish security than protect its skyes . Will be trojan horse in Türkiye and keep us depeding on US israel tech . While we have our steath jet .
İ am aslo agaist new jet engines from US better wait 2 years than pay alot of money to them .
From US i will only get non attack weapons like chinnok helicopters or c17 transport airplanes , everything else will work agaist Turkish interests

dBSPL said:

Parts produced by Israel for the aircraft are sent to US facilities for integration. Joint production is carried out for allied countries within Lockheed's quality standards. Regarding operational maintenance, the organization is entirely run through ODIN; supplier countries have no authority over this system. Israel can veto the use of its own parts or systems in Turkish aircraft, and that's the only thing it can do, if it's willing to accept the lateral complications it would create.

Click to expand...

What does it matter where it is sent to when the Israelis can do anything they want to those parts?
Just remember the pagers,a small adjusment makes it a bomb.
You think they wouldnt do that to us,a ''sleeper cell(small bomb)'' imbedded in the system?
How can you be so relaxed about it?
You trust US facilities,the zionists are in every US company,not only defence related but almost in all companies?

Sanchez said:

Engines are near done, protest period ends tomorrow.

Click to expand...

Let them be in Türkiye first.

dBSPL said:

Personally, my view is that if a window of opportunity has opened, it won't be for long, and therefore, at least one F-35 fighter squadron should be created. Our information processing and physical infrastructure is already in place, ammunition compatibility is at its highest level, and the cost of six aircraft has already been paid; we won't incur as high a cost as some might think. Our only trade-off is that this fleet will not have autonomous operation capabilities as F-16 or EFT, which will require it to be positioned as a joint platform within the alliance, in line with the program's philosophy. However, an extra bonus is that it could provide the infrastructure for tactical and doctrinal studies, with fifth-generation jets forming the backbone, years before KAAN reaches operational level. The data that the air force will gather from this source could indirectly contribute to the development of KAAN. This will indeed provide an opportunity to measure whether we have built an aircraft that is better than the F-35.

Click to expand...

What window?
This was just for show,when he gets back to the US he'll come up with an excuse to block it.

Yasar_TR said:

@dBSPL ustat, @TR_123456 may have a point. When parts are produced, I remember they were being allocated for specific aircraft per order. So, for example, we knew when we produced our fuselages. (Common spare parts for general spares stocks may be a different issue).

Click to expand...

At this moment in time we cant even trust a feather coming from Israel.

BalkanTurk90 said:

İ listen F35 shit for some 15 years and if Türkiye buys them will be so stupid speding billions on aircraft that will be more danger to Turkish security than protect its skyes . Will be trojan horse in Türkiye and keep us depeding on US israel tech . While we have our steath jet .
İ am aslo agaist new jet engines from US better wait 2 years than pay alot of money to them .
From US i will only get non attack weapons like chinnok helicopters or c17 transport airplanes , everything else will work agaist Turkish interests

Click to expand...

I am in two minds about this. I don't want a single penny going to US , and at the same time I understand the need for a stop-gap solution to our AF.
Like you said it'll only mean less money/effort going into our own projects.