TR Air Defence Programs

[TheInsider]

Gentlemen, I have a question. Does any of you know what radar ASELSAN's Gokdemir AD system uses? @TheInsider

Kalkan II and AIC.

 

[Siper>MMU]

Gentlemen, I have a question. Does any of you know what radar ASELSAN's Gokdemir AD system uses? @TheInsider

Gökdemir doesn't have a specific radar. It's fed with all radars over the country via RADNET

 

[TheInsider]

Gökdemir is integrated into AIC. AIC has its own radar and most of the time AIC gets radar data from a Kalkan or Kalkan-II because they are most of the time part of the same air defense unit. Of course, AIC is connected to RADNET and HERIKSS therefore get data from those.

https://wwwcdn.aselsan.com/api/file/ATES_IDARE_CIHAZI_TR.pdf

 

[Kaan Azman]

It will work as a support to HİSAR systems as a middle ground so we can anticipate it to be connected to KALKAN-II or MAR when it joins a battery.

 

[Afif]

Finlandiya hava savunmada İsrail'i tercih etti

Finlandiya, İsrail ile Rafael Advanced Defense Systems'in 'David's Sling' hava savunma sisteminin tedarikine ilişkin bir sözleşme imzaladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

According to this news, Finland is buying 1x battery David’s Sling for 317 millions euro only.

Which is surprisingly cost effective for such a high end system. I wonder How much SIPER block ii battery will cost? @TheInsider

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Finlandiya hava savunmada İsrail'i tercih etti

Finlandiya, İsrail ile Rafael Advanced Defense Systems'in 'David's Sling' hava savunma sisteminin tedarikine ilişkin bir sözleşme imzaladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

According to this news, Finland is buying 1x battery David’s Sling for 317 millions euro only.

Which is surprisingly cost effective for such a high end system. I wonder How much SIPER block ii battery will cost? @TheInsider

Much cheaper missiles as well compared to PAC-3.

 

[boredaf]

Acceptance tests for SİPER Air Defense System have started

SİPER Hava Savunma Sistemi için kabul testleri başladı

SİPER Uzun Menzilli Hava Savunma Füze Sistemi'nin kabul faaliyetlerine başlanıldı. Sistemin, gelecek yıl TSK envanterine girmesi planlanıyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Acceptance activities for the SİPER Long Range Air Defense Missile System, developed with national resources, have started. The system is planned to enter the Turkish Armed Forces inventory next year.

 

[Heartbang]

oh no... anyway...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1724876061245075930

 

[Strong AI]

SİPER, the protector of the sky homeland, is entering the inventory!
National Long Range Regional Air and Missile Defense System SİPER Product-1 is preparing to enter the inventory. The SİPER System will be available to the Air Force Command in 2024.
SIPER, which is of great importance for our country's layered air defense needs and was developed to protect strategic facilities against enemy attacks; It will enable air defense in long range, high altitude and distributed architecture.
SİPER Project; It is carried out in partnership with ASELSAN, ROKETSAN and TUBITAK SAGE.
Continue to work diligently (canSIPERane) for the security of the skies!

 

[Afif]

Long range high altitude Air and Missiles defence systems are Tier 1 strategic assets that any armed force can posses. The most easy way to understand the contribution of high altitude long range AD systems to successful war fighting is to put it this way, your expensive and limited numbers of 4th gen and 5th gen fighter fleet, as well as other areal assets won’t be able to put up a good fight if majority of them and their logistical set-up are taken out on the ground and you failed to protect them from adversary's offensive counter air. which pretty often would include Stand off glide bombs that can be launch from the outside of effective engagement range of medium range AD systems like HISAR O+, as well as hypersonic ballistic missiles that cannot be engaged by medium range/altitude interceptors. Hence, adequate Long range high altitude Air and Missile defence systems are indispensable to joint defensive counter-Air framework.

Previously, If you wanted to procure top-end long range high altitude Air defence systems like Patriot, SAMP/T or BARAK-8 MX, either you have to be a close 'ally' (vessel state) or you have to mortgage a good portion of your foreign policy and geopolitical interests to the West. Or you can just buy Russian systems which are mostly not up to the job.

However, SIPER with its top-notch quality and cost effectiveness will offer traditionally independent and non aligned countries a solution that can adequately meet the requirement of strategic Air and Missile defence, yet does not demand comprises on foreign policy interests and sovereign decision making.

After HISAR O+ purchase (contract has been signed already) I am passionately looking forward to see SIPER block II in Bangladesh Armed Force inventory.

 

[BaburKhan]

Siper to enter Türkiyes inventory in 2024

Long-range air defense and missile system ‘Siper Product-1’ will be available to the Turkish Air Force Command in 2024.

www.anews.com.tr

 

[Strong AI]

The development of high-tech defense systems requires advanced testing systems and infrastructures.
In the ASELSAN ROBOSIM Dynamic Target Test Infrastructure, tests of enemy targets and attack scenarios are simulated in the open field.
The effectiveness of our air defense systems against various attack scenarios can be tested in ROBOSİM.

 

[DBdev]

Long range high altitude Air and Missiles defence systems are Tier 1 strategic assets that any armed force can posses. The most easy way to understand the contribution of high altitude long range AD systems to successful war fighting is to put it this way, your expensive and limited numbers of 4th gen and 5th gen fighter fleet, as well as other areal assets won’t be able to put up a good fight if majority of them and their logistical set-up are taken out on the ground and you failed to protect them from adversary's offensive counter air. which pretty often would include Stand off glide bombs that can be launch from the outside of effective engagement range of medium range AD systems like HISAR O+, as well as hypersonic ballistic missiles that cannot be engaged by medium range/altitude interceptors. Hence, adequate Long range high altitude Air and Missile defence systems are indispensable to joint defensive counter-Air framework.

Previously, If you wanted to procure top-end long range high altitude Air defence systems like Patriot, SAMP/T or BARAK-8 MX, either you have to be a close 'ally' (vessel state) or you have to mortgage a good portion of your foreign policy and geopolitical interests to the West. Or you can just buy Russian systems which are mostly not up to the job.

However, SIPER with its top-notch quality and cost effectiveness will offer traditionally independent and non aligned countries a solution that can adequately meet the requirement of strategic Air and Missile defence, yet does not demand comprises on foreign policy interests and sovereign decision making.

After HISAR O+ purchase (contract has been signed already) I am passionately looking forward to see SIPER block II in Bangladesh Armed Force inventory.

It all depends on who is your foe, isn't it? What do you guys think of this possible scenario?

Assume we have already lost most of our air force to intercept enemy fighters in the air during first hours of the surprise attack like Ukraine, Egypt etc. did. Ground based air defense is all we have left now. But...

LOS is the bane of all ground based air defenses. Türkiye for example is boasting about 100+km range but in reality we can not even see non stealthy low flying enemy planes from 100 kms away if they are flying under 800 meters (according to LOS calculator). So IMHO Siper just like Russia's s400s will be mostly ineffective in a war.

Russia started to destroy still flying borrowed Ukrainian jets in mass only recently according to MOD Shoigu because they just started using their AWACS for directing their missiles instead of relying on s400's ground based radars.

Türkiye is making a huge mistake by not using cheap Akincis with largest possible power plant and engines to host biggest possible airborne radars. Something like this but without the sacrificial crew.

We can't rely on our Radnet because LOS ends on our shores+10km. In war times our small fleet of manned E7-Ts will be destroyed by enemy very quickly. Ground radars can't even see the approaching non stealthy enemy planes UTH let alone stealthy ones, that leaves us only with our hilariously tiny fleet of SHORADs against incoming missiles, drones. Again, see Ukraine.

Just like Russia-Ukraine war, non-stealthy attacking enemy jets will fly under 10 meters. That gives LOS around 10km only. Unless we can daily replenish our swarms of Akinci's with 360 long range radars from deep bunker factories it will be a total defeat. Also building war factories on the ground is foolish. Again see what happened to Ukrainian factories. Worse will happen to us against a foe like USA or even Greece both have long range airborne attack capabilities.

https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/line-of-sight-calculator

 

[Zafer]

It all depends on who is your foe, isn't it? What do you guys think of this possible scenario?

Assume we have already lost most of our air force to intercept enemy fighters in the air during first hours of the surprise attack like Ukraine, Egypt etc. did. Ground based air defense is all we have left now. But...

LOS is the bane of all ground based air defenses. Türkiye for example is boasting about 100+km range but in reality we can not even see non stealthy low flying enemy planes from 100 kms away if they are flying under 800 meters (according to LOS calculator). So IMHO Siper just like Russia's s400s will be mostly ineffective in a war.

Russia started to destroy still flying borrowed Ukrainian jets in mass only recently according to MOD Shoigu because they just started using their AWACS for directing their missiles instead of relying on s400's ground based radars.

Türkiye is making a huge mistake by not using cheap Akincis with largest possible power plant and engines to host biggest possible airborne radars. Something like this but without the sacrificial crew.

We can't rely on our Radnet because LOS ends on our shores+10km. In war times our small fleet of manned E7-Ts will be destroyed by enemy very quickly. Ground radars can't even see the approaching non stealthy enemy planes UTH let alone stealthy ones, that leaves us only with our hilariously tiny fleet of SHORADs against incoming missiles, drones. Again, see Ukraine.

Just like Russia-Ukraine war, non-stealthy attacking enemy jets will fly under 10 meters. That gives LOS around 10km only. Unless we can daily replenish our swarms of Akinci's with 360 long range radars from deep bunker factories it will be a total defeat. Also building war factories on the ground is foolish. Again see what happened to Ukrainian factories. Worse will happen to us against a foe like USA or even Greece both have long range airborne attack capabilities.

https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/line-of-sight-calculator

Wouldn't Akıncı's nose radar be usefull for this purpose?

 

[Afif]

It all depends on who is your foe, isn't it? What do you guys think of this possible scenario?

Amm.....No, what I wrote is mostly US military text book stuff.
Even for a country that won't loose Air superiority, Long Range High Altitude Air and Missile defence is a priority.

You can't intercept SRBMs, MRBMs and (recent addition) Hypersonics with your fighter fleet. Those countries that have BM and Hypersonic, always going to use them against you as part of their joint offensive counter Air framrwork to destroy your air assets on the ground. That is why US doctrine put heavy emphasis on balistic missile defence.

Türkiye already has one such potential adversary, Iran. With a large arsenal of state of art SRBMs, and MRBMs. Which going to be devastating if you can't shoot them down. Hence, long range High Altitude Air and Missile defence assets are always indispensable.

About your point of fighters flying very low, well...it cuts both ways. Trying to get deep into enemy air space by flying low will expose you to short range air defence systems and even manpads.

And I am not sure if AWACS can provide fire control to Missiles. Never heard of it.

 

[DBdev]

Wouldn't Akıncı's nose radar be usefull for this purpose?

That is unknown. But not likely. It all depends on the specific performance of Murad and RCS of enemy aircraft. It can't even defend itself against a Rafale carrying 300km range Meteor missile using it's small Murad radar. Let's not forget it can't evade a missile like manned jetfighters or even hide between mountains to hide and wait for enemy to get close like manned jets do. It is pretty much a duck hunt if radar is small too. Larger the radar longer the range it can detect and target low flying Rafale carrying SCALPs. With it's own BVR missiles (take off weight could be an issue) or by directing a 400km future Siper missile from Turkish shores.

 

[Zafer]

That is unknown. But not likely. It all depends on the specific performance of Murad and RCS of enemy aircraft. It can't even defend itself against a Rafale carrying 300km range Meteor missile using it's small Murad radar. Let's not forget it can't evade a missile like manned jetfighters or even hide between mountains to hide and wait for enemy to get close like manned jets do. It is pretty much a duck hunt if radar is small too. Larger the radar longer the range it can detect and target low flying Rafale carrying SCALPs. With it's own BVR missiles (take off weight could be an issue) or by directing a 400km future Siper missile from Turkish shores.

It will not be required to defend itself, perhaps a couple of WVR missiles can be provided for targets of opportunity. But as long as it stays in the air it will provide radar capability to other assets. Several of such planes can create a wall of radar coverage. For possible additional power requirements TS1400 engine should be adapted to a new variant of Akıncı for expanded radar capabilities. I am not sure if a large dorsal radar for Akıncı is viable but additional radars as far as Akıncı can handle should be implemented to make use of this platform to its full extent.

 

[DBdev]

And I am not sure if AWACS can provide fire control to Missiles. Never heard of it.

Turkish E7-t shot down Russian plane in Syria by this method. Turkish F-16 was UTH, waiting between mountains. Our E7-Ts were always around so Russians did not see any danger. Especially since E7-T MESA does not give of targeting radar warnings. Their pilot even said there were no enemy fighters and no missile warnings. Same must be done using Akinci as AWACS without risking crew and sacrificing billion dollar E7-ts. Our e7-ts got away with it only because it was in official NATO air space. In a war with Greece they will be shot down early on.

 

[DBdev]

I don't think you can

You can't intercept SRBMs, MRBMs and (recent addition) Hypersonics with your fighter fleet. Those countries that have BM and Hypersonic, always going to use them against you as part of their joint offensive counter Air framrwork to destroy your air assets on the ground. That is why US doctrine put heavy emphasis on balistic missile defence.

Türkiye already has one such potential adversary, Iran. With a large arsenal of state of art SRBMs, and MRBMs. Which going to be devastating if you can't shoot them down. Hence, long range High Altitude Air and Missile defence assets are always indispensable.

About your point of fighters flying very low, well...it cuts both ways. Trying to get deep into enemy air space by flying low will expose you to short range air defence systems and even manpads.

Even huge stockpiles of Russia ran out of ballistic missiles. So I ignore them. Some will get in and destroy your over ground factories. So that is why I said it is foolish. There is zero chance of defending them no matter how many ADs you have.

Ballistic missiles have their own problems, they are too expensive, slow to produce and not as effective as our Roketsan chief Murat İkinci fantasises about. They have an interception probability around %80 using western air defense systems according to data from Ukraine MOD. Meanwhile $20k Shahed has %90 probability of interception they say. Considering the price. It is silly to use ballistic missiles in a long lasting conflict instead of cheap Shaheds. Eventually it will become a fight between cheap, fast produced, simple drones, stand of glide bombs, launched from fighters and swarms of SHORAD. That is why I must insist we need underground factories producing Akincis with long range radars to hunt down platforms delivering those stand off glide bombs.

Russian AWACS are far away and safe from Ukrainian jets because west won't let them attack those but we won't have that luxury. So we must be able to replenish our shot down E7-ts quickly with daily Akincis or we will be bombed to smithereens like Iraq.

 

[Afif]

Turkish E7-t shot down Russian plane in Syria by this method. Turkish F-16 was UTH, waiting between mountains. Our E7-Ts were always around so Russians did not see any danger. Especially since E7-T MESA does not give of targeting radar warnings. Their pilot even said there were no enemy fighters and no missile warnings. Same must be done using Akinci as AWACS without risking crew and sacrificing billion dollar E7-ts. Our e7-ts got away with it only because it was in official NATO air space. In a war with Greece they will be shot down early on.

As far my technical knowledge goes, AWACS can't provide fire ontrol.
You need to provide specific credible source that explain in detail how E7-T provides weapon quality track.

Ballistic missiles have their own problems, they are too expensive, slow to produce and not as effective as our Roketsan chief Murat İkinci fantasises about. They have an interception probability around %80 using western air defense systems according to data from Ukraine MOD. Meanwhile $20k Shahed has %90 probability of interception they say. Considering the price. It is silly to use ballistic missiles in a long lasting conflict instead of cheap Shaheds. Eventually it will become a fight between cheap, fast produced, simple drones, stand of glide bombs, launched from fighters and swarms of SHORAD. That is why I must insist we need a factories producing Akincis daily with long range radars to hunt down platforms delivering those stand off glide bombs.

I don't see how this refutes my point of about the essentiality of High Altitude Long Range air defence system.

Countries still continue to invest heavily in BM. and Iran will do so for the foreseeable future. Hence the threat remains.