TR Air Defence Programs

[Afif]

Long range high altitude Air and Missiles defence systems are Tier 1 strategic assets that any armed force can posses. The most easy way to understand the contribution of high altitude long range AD systems to successful war fighting is to put it this way, your expensive and limited numbers of 4th gen and 5th gen fighter fleet, as well as other areal assets won’t be able to put up a good fight if majority of them and their logistical set-up are taken out on the ground and you failed to protect them from adversary's offensive counter air. which pretty often would include Stand off glide bombs that can be launch from the outside of effective engagement range of medium range AD systems like HISAR O+, as well as hypersonic ballistic missiles that cannot be engaged by medium range/altitude interceptors. Hence, adequate Long range high altitude Air and Missile defence systems are indispensable to joint defensive counter-Air framework.

Previously, If you wanted to procure top-end long range high altitude Air defence systems like Patriot, SAMP/T or BARAK-8 MX, either you have to be a close 'ally' (vessel state) or you have to mortgage a good portion of your foreign policy and geopolitical interests to the West. Or you can just buy Russian systems which are mostly not up to the job.

However, SIPER with its top-notch quality and cost effectiveness will offer traditionally independent and non aligned countries a solution that can adequately meet the requirement of strategic Air and Missile defence, yet does not demand comprises on foreign policy interests and sovereign decision making.

After HISAR O+ purchase (contract has been signed already) I am passionately looking forward to see SIPER block II in Bangladesh Armed Force inventory.

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Siper to enter Türkiyes inventory in 2024

Long-range air defense and missile system ‘Siper Product-1’ will be available to the Turkish Air Force Command in 2024.

www.anews.com.tr

 

[DBdev]

Long range high altitude Air and Missiles defence systems are Tier 1 strategic assets that any armed force can posses. The most easy way to understand the contribution of high altitude long range AD systems to successful war fighting is to put it this way, your expensive and limited numbers of 4th gen and 5th gen fighter fleet, as well as other areal assets won’t be able to put up a good fight if majority of them and their logistical set-up are taken out on the ground and you failed to protect them from adversary's offensive counter air. which pretty often would include Stand off glide bombs that can be launch from the outside of effective engagement range of medium range AD systems like HISAR O+, as well as hypersonic ballistic missiles that cannot be engaged by medium range/altitude interceptors. Hence, adequate Long range high altitude Air and Missile defence systems are indispensable to joint defensive counter-Air framework.

Previously, If you wanted to procure top-end long range high altitude Air defence systems like Patriot, SAMP/T or BARAK-8 MX, either you have to be a close 'ally' (vessel state) or you have to mortgage a good portion of your foreign policy and geopolitical interests to the West. Or you can just buy Russian systems which are mostly not up to the job.

However, SIPER with its top-notch quality and cost effectiveness will offer traditionally independent and non aligned countries a solution that can adequately meet the requirement of strategic Air and Missile defence, yet does not demand comprises on foreign policy interests and sovereign decision making.

After HISAR O+ purchase (contract has been signed already) I am passionately looking forward to see SIPER block II in Bangladesh Armed Force inventory.

It all depends on who is your foe, isn't it? What do you guys think of this possible scenario?

Assume we have already lost most of our air force to intercept enemy fighters in the air during first hours of the surprise attack like Ukraine, Egypt etc. did. Ground based air defense is all we have left now. But...

LOS is the bane of all ground based air defenses. Türkiye for example is boasting about 100+km range but in reality we can not even see non stealthy low flying enemy planes from 100 kms away if they are flying under 800 meters (according to LOS calculator). So IMHO Siper just like Russia's s400s will be mostly ineffective in a war.

Russia started to destroy still flying borrowed Ukrainian jets in mass only recently according to MOD Shoigu because they just started using their AWACS for directing their missiles instead of relying on s400's ground based radars.

Türkiye is making a huge mistake by not using cheap Akincis with largest possible power plant and engines to host biggest possible airborne radars. Something like this but without the sacrificial crew.

We can't rely on our Radnet because LOS ends on our shores+10km. In war times our small fleet of manned E7-Ts will be destroyed by enemy very quickly. Ground radars can't even see the approaching non stealthy enemy planes UTH let alone stealthy ones, that leaves us only with our hilariously tiny fleet of SHORADs against incoming missiles, drones. Again, see Ukraine.

Just like Russia-Ukraine war, non-stealthy attacking enemy jets will fly under 10 meters. That gives LOS around 10km only. Unless we can daily replenish our swarms of Akinci's with 360 long range radars from deep bunker factories it will be a total defeat. Also building war factories on the ground is foolish. Again see what happened to Ukrainian factories. Worse will happen to us against a foe like USA or even Greece both have long range airborne attack capabilities.

https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/line-of-sight-calculator

 

[Zafer]

It all depends on who is your foe, isn't it? What do you guys think of this possible scenario?

Assume we have already lost most of our air force to intercept enemy fighters in the air during first hours of the surprise attack like Ukraine, Egypt etc. did. Ground based air defense is all we have left now. But...

LOS is the bane of all ground based air defenses. Türkiye for example is boasting about 100+km range but in reality we can not even see non stealthy low flying enemy planes from 100 kms away if they are flying under 800 meters (according to LOS calculator). So IMHO Siper just like Russia's s400s will be mostly ineffective in a war.

Russia started to destroy still flying borrowed Ukrainian jets in mass only recently according to MOD Shoigu because they just started using their AWACS for directing their missiles instead of relying on s400's ground based radars.

Türkiye is making a huge mistake by not using cheap Akincis with largest possible power plant and engines to host biggest possible airborne radars. Something like this but without the sacrificial crew.

We can't rely on our Radnet because LOS ends on our shores+10km. In war times our small fleet of manned E7-Ts will be destroyed by enemy very quickly. Ground radars can't even see the approaching non stealthy enemy planes UTH let alone stealthy ones, that leaves us only with our hilariously tiny fleet of SHORADs against incoming missiles, drones. Again, see Ukraine.

Just like Russia-Ukraine war, non-stealthy attacking enemy jets will fly under 10 meters. That gives LOS around 10km only. Unless we can daily replenish our swarms of Akinci's with 360 long range radars from deep bunker factories it will be a total defeat. Also building war factories on the ground is foolish. Again see what happened to Ukrainian factories. Worse will happen to us against a foe like USA or even Greece both have long range airborne attack capabilities.

https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/line-of-sight-calculator

Wouldn't Akıncı's nose radar be usefull for this purpose?

 

[Afif]

It all depends on who is your foe, isn't it? What do you guys think of this possible scenario?

Amm.....No, what I wrote is mostly US military text book stuff.
Even for a country that won't loose Air superiority, Long Range High Altitude Air and Missile defence is a priority.

You can't intercept SRBMs, MRBMs and (recent addition) Hypersonics with your fighter fleet. Those countries that have BM and Hypersonic, always going to use them against you as part of their joint offensive counter Air framrwork to destroy your air assets on the ground. That is why US doctrine put heavy emphasis on balistic missile defence.

Türkiye already has one such potential adversary, Iran. With a large arsenal of state of art SRBMs, and MRBMs. Which going to be devastating if you can't shoot them down. Hence, long range High Altitude Air and Missile defence assets are always indispensable.

About your point of fighters flying very low, well...it cuts both ways. Trying to get deep into enemy air space by flying low will expose you to short range air defence systems and even manpads.

And I am not sure if AWACS can provide fire control to Missiles. Never heard of it.

 

[DBdev]

Wouldn't Akıncı's nose radar be usefull for this purpose?

That is unknown. But not likely. It all depends on the specific performance of Murad and RCS of enemy aircraft. It can't even defend itself against a Rafale carrying 300km range Meteor missile using it's small Murad radar. Let's not forget it can't evade a missile like manned jetfighters or even hide between mountains to hide and wait for enemy to get close like manned jets do. It is pretty much a duck hunt if radar is small too. Larger the radar longer the range it can detect and target low flying Rafale carrying SCALPs. With it's own BVR missiles (take off weight could be an issue) or by directing a 400km future Siper missile from Turkish shores.

 

[Zafer]

That is unknown. But not likely. It all depends on the specific performance of Murad and RCS of enemy aircraft. It can't even defend itself against a Rafale carrying 300km range Meteor missile using it's small Murad radar. Let's not forget it can't evade a missile like manned jetfighters or even hide between mountains to hide and wait for enemy to get close like manned jets do. It is pretty much a duck hunt if radar is small too. Larger the radar longer the range it can detect and target low flying Rafale carrying SCALPs. With it's own BVR missiles (take off weight could be an issue) or by directing a 400km future Siper missile from Turkish shores.

It will not be required to defend itself, perhaps a couple of WVR missiles can be provided for targets of opportunity. But as long as it stays in the air it will provide radar capability to other assets. Several of such planes can create a wall of radar coverage. For possible additional power requirements TS1400 engine should be adapted to a new variant of Akıncı for expanded radar capabilities. I am not sure if a large dorsal radar for Akıncı is viable but additional radars as far as Akıncı can handle should be implemented to make use of this platform to its full extent.

 

[DBdev]

And I am not sure if AWACS can provide fire control to Missiles. Never heard of it.

Turkish E7-t shot down Russian plane in Syria by this method. Turkish F-16 was UTH, waiting between mountains. Our E7-Ts were always around so Russians did not see any danger. Especially since E7-T MESA does not give of targeting radar warnings. Their pilot even said there were no enemy fighters and no missile warnings. Same must be done using Akinci as AWACS without risking crew and sacrificing billion dollar E7-ts. Our e7-ts got away with it only because it was in official NATO air space. In a war with Greece they will be shot down early on.

 

[DBdev]

I don't think you can

You can't intercept SRBMs, MRBMs and (recent addition) Hypersonics with your fighter fleet. Those countries that have BM and Hypersonic, always going to use them against you as part of their joint offensive counter Air framrwork to destroy your air assets on the ground. That is why US doctrine put heavy emphasis on balistic missile defence.

Türkiye already has one such potential adversary, Iran. With a large arsenal of state of art SRBMs, and MRBMs. Which going to be devastating if you can't shoot them down. Hence, long range High Altitude Air and Missile defence assets are always indispensable.

About your point of fighters flying very low, well...it cuts both ways. Trying to get deep into enemy air space by flying low will expose you to short range air defence systems and even manpads.

Even huge stockpiles of Russia ran out of ballistic missiles. So I ignore them. Some will get in and destroy your over ground factories. So that is why I said it is foolish. There is zero chance of defending them no matter how many ADs you have.

Ballistic missiles have their own problems, they are too expensive, slow to produce and not as effective as our Roketsan chief Murat İkinci fantasises about. They have an interception probability around %80 using western air defense systems according to data from Ukraine MOD. Meanwhile $20k Shahed has %90 probability of interception they say. Considering the price. It is silly to use ballistic missiles in a long lasting conflict instead of cheap Shaheds. Eventually it will become a fight between cheap, fast produced, simple drones, stand of glide bombs, launched from fighters and swarms of SHORAD. That is why I must insist we need underground factories producing Akincis with long range radars to hunt down platforms delivering those stand off glide bombs.

Russian AWACS are far away and safe from Ukrainian jets because west won't let them attack those but we won't have that luxury. So we must be able to replenish our shot down E7-ts quickly with daily Akincis or we will be bombed to smithereens like Iraq.

 

[Afif]

Turkish E7-t shot down Russian plane in Syria by this method. Turkish F-16 was UTH, waiting between mountains. Our E7-Ts were always around so Russians did not see any danger. Especially since E7-T MESA does not give of targeting radar warnings. Their pilot even said there were no enemy fighters and no missile warnings. Same must be done using Akinci as AWACS without risking crew and sacrificing billion dollar E7-ts. Our e7-ts got away with it only because it was in official NATO air space. In a war with Greece they will be shot down early on.

As far my technical knowledge goes, AWACS can't provide fire ontrol.
You need to provide specific credible source that explain in detail how E7-T provides weapon quality track.

Ballistic missiles have their own problems, they are too expensive, slow to produce and not as effective as our Roketsan chief Murat İkinci fantasises about. They have an interception probability around %80 using western air defense systems according to data from Ukraine MOD. Meanwhile $20k Shahed has %90 probability of interception they say. Considering the price. It is silly to use ballistic missiles in a long lasting conflict instead of cheap Shaheds. Eventually it will become a fight between cheap, fast produced, simple drones, stand of glide bombs, launched from fighters and swarms of SHORAD. That is why I must insist we need a factories producing Akincis daily with long range radars to hunt down platforms delivering those stand off glide bombs.

I don't see how this refutes my point of about the essentiality of High Altitude Long Range air defence system.

Countries still continue to invest heavily in BM. and Iran will do so for the foreseeable future. Hence the threat remains.

 

[DBdev]

As far my technical knowledge goes, AWACS can't provide fire ontrol.
You need to provide specific credible source that explain in detail how E7-T provides weapon quality track.



I don't see how this refutes my point of about the essentiality of High Altitude Long Range air defence system.

Countries still continue to invest heavily in BM. and Iran will do so for the foreseeable future. Hence the threat remains.

E7-ts can do that with latest American AA missiles. Google it. I have read these on the internet but not going to waste an hour to produce them for you. Sorry.

Russia with 3 million people working in defense sector can't produce ballistic missiles fast enough. That makes even 10 thousand ballistic missiles pretty useless in a long war with likely embargos. But yes they will have role to play in the beginning. To destroy enemy fighter jets in their hangars, take out fixed radars, air defenses, factories etc. Most of them will be intercepted and both sides will eventually ran out of expensive ballistic missile interceptors and ballistic missiles themselves.

Ukraine war is my main point of reference. Because it includes a super power vs a mid-tier power that can replenish it's weapons.
Closest modern demonstration of what will happen in a worse case scenario conflict of USA vs Turkey.

 

[Quasar]

-AWACS can feed data to the guidance station (Air land Sea)

-not just RadNet but HERIKKS and now HAKIM should always be in considiration when we talk about Turkish Air defence

-even old HERIKKS was useing Link-16, JREAP-C, Link-11B, Link-1 I am just stating them to open room for a speculation on potential data transfer between HAKIM and ADVENT

- distributed architecture of Turkish SAM systems

- Our Radar rode map should be also considered

 

[Siper>MMU]

"E-7T guided the AMRAAM" story is wrong. E-7T enabled F-16 to acquire target sooner via L16. F-16 tracked the target with its own radar and guided the AMRAAM with the radars X band datalink. Our AMRAAMs doesn't have L16 capability.

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Another Idea of using Akinci in Air Defence Role, with it's Murad AESA Radar the Drone can search for Tergets like Cruise Missiles, UAV/UCAV, Helicopters and low flying Aircraft. It will be able to use BVR and WVR Missiles and have Datalink Connection to AWACS. In this Role Akinci will Supplement hround based Air Defence.

 

[neosinan]

-AWACS can feed data to the guidance station (Air land Sea)

-not just RadNet but HERIKKS and now HAKIM should always be in considiration when we talk about Turkish Air defence

-even old HERIKKS was useing Link-16, JREAP-C, Link-11B, Link-1 I am just stating them to open room for a speculation on potential data transfer between HAKIM and ADVENT

- distributed architecture of Turkish SAM systems

- Our Radar rode map should be also considered

I am not sure everybody is speaking the same thing here, I just want everybody to be in the same page here, Correct me here If I am wrong. Radar information from our Awacs can be utilized in varies levels

- Just for situational awareness
- can be used in semi active radar homing
- target level lock till SAM hits its target

My understanding was, It was only used for situational awareness not To be used in initial part of semi active radar homing. But As far as I understand other were wondering if it can used even in the final stage of the journey. Since our SAM can used in semi active mode, They can use their own radars or IIR sensors for final aproach and They dont need such high level of accuracy. And thus we can use our Awacs in the first half of the jouney till its own sensors can have lock on the target.

 

[Sanchez]

Our AMRAAMs doesn't have L16 capability

C-7s we use do have L16, no? Not sure if it's a two way datalink tho.

 

[Quasar]

I am not sure everybody is speaking the same thing here, I just want everybody to be in the same page here, Correct me here If I am wrong. Radar information from our Awacs can be utilized in varies levels

- Just for situational awareness
- can be used in semi active radar homing
- target level lock till SAM hits its target

My understanding was, It was only used for situational awareness not To be used in initial part of semi active radar homing. But As far as I understand other were wondering if it can used even in the final stage of the journey. Since our SAM can used in semi active mode, They can use their own radars or IIR sensors for final aproach and They dont need such high level of accuracy. And thus we can use our Awacs in the first half of the jouney till its own sensors can have lock on the target.

Brother in F 16 net there is an old thread on AWACS you may want to check... kind of old one but still quite informative. unfortunatly Nowadays we start to use the term ''force multiplier'' so often. AWACS is the real embodiemt of the term

 

[Quasar]

Multiple Target Engagement Scenario for Hisar with mixed IIR and RF seeker missiles

3 cruise missiles + 3 UAVs + 3 aircrafts with diffrent speeds and altitudes

 

[Ştutgart]

IT WILL REPLACE ROADRUNNER S400 MISSILES

WEATHER TECHNOLOGIES ARE GOING TO MANY DIFFERENT PLACES

 

[Kartal1]

IT WILL REPLACE ROADRUNNER S400 MISSILES

WEATHER TECHNOLOGIES ARE GOING TO MANY DIFFERENT PLACES

While I have doubt that this will replace systems like S-400 or Patriot I think such systems have their place on the field.