TR Air Defence Programs

[Quasar]

needless to say Hisar A and Sungur are not interchangeable....Sensors, Target capacity, Range, Altitude.... they are for different Scenarios.

Sungur is the last line of defense V.S HİSAR-A is a preventive layer, even in more simpler words Sungur engages what has already penetrated yet HİSAR-A prevents penetration in the first place. MANPADS are reactive and terminal; SHORAD provides proactive area denial for maneuvering forces and covers the gaps.

.... and having more preventive layers and covering the gaps is the essence

cheaper missiles is not a sound argument.

instead of getting rid of Hisar A, we should supplement them with Gürz type systems


MANPADS

-Rely on simple seekers
-Engage threats only once already close
-Provide local protection (point defense) against low threats (e.g., helicopters, UAVs)

SHORAD

-Detect and track threats earlier
-Provide area coverage and proactive response
-Support maneuver forces and prevent deeper penetration

https://www.nato.int/en/about-us/of...missile-defence-policy?utm_source=chatgpt.com

 

[Afif]

needless to say Hisar A and Sungur are not interchangeable....Sensors, Target capacity, Range, Altitude.... they are for different Scenarios.

Sungur is the last line of defense V.S HİSAR-A is a preventive layer, even in more simpler words Sungur engages what has already penetrated yet HİSAR-A prevents penetration in the first place. MANPADS are reactive and terminal; SHORAD provides proactive area denial for maneuvering forces and covers the gaps.

.... and having more preventive layers and covering the gaps is the essence

cheaper missiles is not a sound argument.

instead of getting rid of Hisar A, we should supplement them with Gürz type systems


MANPADS

-Rely on simple seekers
-Engage threats only once already close
-Provide local protection (point defense) against low threats (e.g., helicopters, UAVs)

SHORAD

-Detect and track threats earlier
-Provide area coverage and proactive response
-Support maneuver forces and prevent deeper penetration

https://www.nato.int/en/about-us/of...missile-defence-policy?utm_source=chatgpt.com

The point is to use sungur and levent with sensor package similar to that of HISAR A+ equipped with automatic fire control system. What penetrate HISAR A+ cannot be engaged by any Manpads simply for the fact that it would be too late for human reaction. Automated AAA guns at that point is more practically effective.

However, HISAR A+ is more expensive while something like levent is much more cost effective and practically can engage all the targets that a HISAR A+ would.

On the other hand, a slightly bigger HISAR O+ works much better as preventive option with 30km range and 15 km altitude.

 

[TheInsider]

Hisar-A should be axed. All Hisar-As should be replaced by Hisar-Os. Short-range (<15km) air defense solution should be mainly based on Aselsan Gürz or a similar system.35mm autocannon, Sungur, Levent and semi-active RF Guided cost-effective missile should be the main effectors of the system. The longest range air defense missile of the system should have 15km range. Sensor package should include 4x AESA radars(360 degree coverage) that has at least 2x the range of the longest range missile (30-35km), EO system, self protection sensors (LWR, RWR), acoustic sensor, 360 degree situational awareness system, and ESM/jammer. Missiles should be inherently mass producible in the thousands. The system should carry 16 missiles. Hisar-A IIR missile as well as Bozdoğan WVR missile shouldn't be a part of this structure. Bozdoğan should be a part of Gökdemir (national NASAMs) architecture.

 

[Quasar]

The point is to use sungur and levent with sensor package similar to that of HISAR A+ equipped with automatic fire control system. What penetrate HISAR A+ cannot be engaged by any Manpads simply for the fact that it would be too late for human reaction. Automated AAA guns at that point is more practically effective.

However, HISAR A+ is more expensive while something like levent is much more cost effective and practically can engage all the targets that a HISAR A+ would.

On the other hand, a slightly bigger HISAR O+ works much better as preventive option with 30km range and 15 km altitude.

.

.... and having more preventive layers and covering the gaps is the essence

instead of getting rid of Hisar A, we should supplement them with Gürz type systems

As I clearly stated I am in favor of supplementing Hisar A+ with other systems as it should be but I am also clearly and definitly against the notion that hisar A+ is a useless system


-MANPADS cannot replace automated terminal defense (correct)
-HISAR O+ is a better preventive interceptor (correct)
-LEVENT + AAA is more cost-effective at close range (correct)

However

Removing HISAR A+ entirely risks a mid-layer engagement gap & dead zone where Glide bombs, Loitering munitions, Pop-up helicopters operate.

Unless LEVENT gains extended range or Hisar O+ density is increased yet still Hisar A+ is fulfilling Direct SHORAD escort role (Bubble around moving units) V.S Hisar O+ is an Area air defense (Umbrella over maneuver area)

 

[TheInsider]

Hisar-A is an outdated system. The T-LALADMIS project dates back to 2007. The system is designed taking into account the battlespace of that era and much has changed since then. Mass use of FPV and kamikaze drones, loitering munitions, NLOS anti-tank missiles, and low-cost cruise missiles like Kemankeş opened way to low-cost saturation of air defense systems. Short-range air defense must provide a solution to those problems.

 

[UkroTurk]

I don't think Hisar A+ is more expensive than Levent and göksur. More compact and tiny solutions are always more expensive.

 

[Quasar]

Defense Industry President Prof. Dr. Haluk Görgün;

“The HİSAR-A system, one of the critical components of ÇELİKKUBBE within our layered air defense architecture, has successfully completed its acceptance firing using elements from the serial production line. In the firing conducted via the Missile Launch System (FFS) against a high-speed target detected and tracked by the Fire Control Device (AİC), full engagement was achieved with the HİSAR-A missile featuring an IIR seeker head, and the target was neutralized. With this firing, the new-generation HİSAR FFS configuration and the serial production batch consisting of HİSAR-A missiles with seeker heads have become mission-ready. With its advanced sensor, guidance, and engagement capabilities, HİSAR-A continues to serve as one of the foundational elements forming the backbone of our low-altitude air defense and strengthening the on-the-ground deterrence of ÇELİKKUBBE. I wholeheartedly congratulate the ASELSAN and ROKETSAN teams who contributed to this significant achievement, our Ministry of National Defense, and the esteemed personnel of our Land Forces Command. This firing is a resolute signature cast into the skies of the Sky Homeland, a silent yet powerful expression of our national engineering prowess. We continue to advance with confident steps in the Sky Homeland.”

Fire Control Device (AİC)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2006021444573016229

 

[MonteCarlo]

Deliveries continue uninterrupted at ÇELİKKUBBE. Another Siper System Added to Inventory!

The serial production process of our long-range regional air defense system SİPER-1, which continues without slowing down, has successfully completed the firing test activity for autonomous battery acceptance.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2007733558949912706

SİPER mass production battery delivery acceptance firing...
Successfully destroying the target in a challenging scenario where friend and enemy aircraft were maneuvering...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2007734801898319964

I wonder what is our definition of "Siper battery" . Last time it was 13 vehicles including support vehicles. Is this one 13 vehicles too?

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Deliveries continue uninterrupted at ÇELİKKUBBE. Another Siper System Added to Inventory!

The serial production process of our long-range regional air defense system SİPER-1, which continues without slowing down, has successfully completed the firing test activity for autonomous battery acceptance.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2007733558949912706

SİPER mass production battery delivery acceptance firing...
Successfully destroying the target in a challenging scenario where friend and enemy aircraft were maneuvering...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2007734801898319964

Music to my ears!

 

[Samba]

How does siper fair against S400 given that s400 can provide what is written on paper?

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Deliveries continue uninterrupted at ÇELİKKUBBE. Another Siper System Added to Inventory!

The serial production process of our long-range regional air defense system SİPER-1, which continues without slowing down, has successfully completed the firing test activity for autonomous battery acceptance.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2007733558949912706

SİPER mass production battery delivery acceptance firing...
Successfully destroying the target in a challenging scenario where friend and enemy aircraft were maneuvering...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2007734801898319964

Does Türkiye do tests if this air defence is any good agaist top tech and powerful countries ?
Just splint the army in 2 teams one with every high tech EW like Koral 1/2 and others while team 2 with radars and Siper 1 , hisar Air defence ?
Can Koral manipulate / hack Siper radars ?
Are those kind of tests done or army keep them secret ?
İ am saying this after US entering Venezuela like going in its airspace , Aslo İsrael - Qatar attacks etc etc !

 

[IC3M@N FX]

How does siper fair against S400 given that s400 can provide what is written on paper?

SİPER should be understood as a block-based air and missile defense family, with performance roughly comparable as follows:

SİPER Block 1 operates in the performance range between PATRIOT PAC-2 (GEM-T) and the early PAC-3 variants. Its primary role is the interception of aircraft, cruise missiles, and UAVs, rather than ballistic missile defense.

SİPER Block 2 roughly corresponds to PATRIOT PAC-3 (baseline) capability and introduces limited tactical ballistic missile interception, but remains below the performance of PAC-3 MSE.

SİPER Block 3 sits between PATRIOT PAC-3 MSE and the S-400 system. When integrated into a modern sensor-fusion and network-centric command architecture, it can match or surpass older S-400 configurations in overall effectiveness.

Expected:
SİPER Block 4 is aimed at very high endo-atmospheric interception, approaching the endo-exo transition region. While it is not a true exo-atmospheric interceptor like THAAD, its system-level effectiveness can exceed that of S-400.

Only once SİPER Block 2 is in series production and SİPER Block 3 is undergoing extended prototype and qualification testing will Turkey realistically be ready to hand over, decommission or completely phase out the S-400 system.
Before that, it is not plausible to give it up, as this would create a real capability gap in national air and missile defence. No state would relinquish such a critical capability before a credible replacement of its own was at least operationally available and the resulting deficit had been largely closed.

 

[Afif]

SİPER should be understood as a block-based air and missile defense family, with performance roughly comparable as follows:

SİPER Block 1 operates in the performance range between PATRIOT PAC-2 (GEM-T) and the early PAC-3 variants. Its primary role is the interception of aircraft, cruise missiles, and UAVs, rather than ballistic missile defense.

SİPER Block 2 roughly corresponds to PATRIOT PAC-3 (baseline) capability and introduces limited tactical ballistic missile interception, but remains below the performance of PAC-3 MSE.

SİPER Block 3 sits between PATRIOT PAC-3 MSE and the S-400 system. When integrated into a modern sensor-fusion and network-centric command architecture, it can match or surpass older S-400 configurations in overall effectiveness.

Expected:
SİPER Block 4 is aimed at very high endo-atmospheric interception, approaching the endo-exo transition region. While it is not a true exo-atmospheric interceptor like THAAD, its system-level effectiveness can exceed that of S-400.

More like SIPER block 2 is comparable to PAC-2 (GEM-T)

PAC-3 is a hit to kill system. SIPER block 2 is not comparable to that.

And its C2 and sensor architecture exceed all types of S400 systems (old or new) there is. in terms of technology, it is obviously a generation ahead.

 

[TR_123456]

SİPER should be understood as a block-based air and missile defense family, with performance roughly comparable as follows:

SİPER Block 1 operates in the performance range between PATRIOT PAC-2 (GEM-T) and the early PAC-3 variants. Its primary role is the interception of aircraft, cruise missiles, and UAVs, rather than ballistic missile defense.

SİPER Block 2 roughly corresponds to PATRIOT PAC-3 (baseline) capability and introduces limited tactical ballistic missile interception, but remains below the performance of PAC-3 MSE.

SİPER Block 3 sits between PATRIOT PAC-3 MSE and the S-400 system. When integrated into a modern sensor-fusion and network-centric command architecture, it can match or surpass older S-400 configurations in overall effectiveness.

Expected:
SİPER Block 4 is aimed at very high endo-atmospheric interception, approaching the endo-exo transition region. While it is not a true exo-atmospheric interceptor like THAAD, its system-level effectiveness can exceed that of S-400.

I call bs,we havent seen it in action yet and these comparisons are also fictive.
When did we see/hear of S-400 in action?
We only have seen/heard of Pac-3 action against Iranian(obsolete) missiles.
Stop using Chatgpt or any other AI,use your own research instead.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I call bs,we havent seen it in action yet and these comparisons are also fictive.
When did we see/hear of S-400 in action?
We only have seen/heard of Pac-3 action against Iranian(obsolete) missiles.
Stop using Chatgpt or any other AI,use your own research instead.

I did not use AI. Depending on the source and version (e.g. PAC-2 GEM), PAC-2 -> PAC-3 MSE missiles have a range of between 70 -> 100+ and more kilometres.

The range of the Patriot PAC-3 system varies depending on the type of missile and target, but is typically around 68 km for general air defence (PAC-2), while the more modern PAC-3 and MSE (Missile Segment Enhancement) can achieve an extended range of up to 100+ and more km against aircraft and up to 30-40 km against ballistic missiles.

Is everything searchable with Google Search.

 

[TR_123456]

I did not use AI. Depending on the source and version (e.g. PAC-2 GEM), PAC-2 -> PAC-3 MSE missiles have a range of between 70 -> 100+ and more kilometres.

The range of the Patriot PAC-3 system varies depending on the type of missile and target, but is typically around 68 km for general air defence (PAC-2), while the more modern PAC-3 and MSE (Missile Segment Enhancement) can achieve an extended range of up to 100+ and more km against aircraft and up to 30-40 km against ballistic missiles.

Is everything searchable with Google Search.

''it can match or surpass older S-400 configurations in overall effectiveness.''
''When integrated into a modern sensor-fusion and network-centric command architecture, it can match or surpass older S-400 configurations in overall effectiveness.''
''its system-level effectiveness can exceed that of S-400.''


It says ''level of effectiveness,overall effectiveness,system level effectiveness''
This does not say or mean ''range level'' alone which is what you meant to say?
So,i find it bs.
We need to see them all in action to make such statements.

 

[UkroTurk]

S-400 is superior than pac-3? KAMAZ truck vs Chevrolet Suburban
PAC 3 older version is worse than pac-3 MSE? MSE is created for economy because first gen pac-3 was expensive.
Totally Bullshit.

 

[mehmed beg]

I think that few days ago I read the n the Ukrainian site ,that Russians hit an Ukrainian plane from 150 km distance at the altitude of 15 m. Probably it was S 400 . Probably Russia improved the S 400 or improved tactics.

 

[TR_123456]

I think that few days ago I read the n the Ukrainian site ,that Russians hit an Ukrainian plane from 150 km distance at the altitude of 15 m. Probably it was S 400 . Probably Russia improved the S 400 or improved tactics.

Probably R-77,R-37 or maybe even KS-172.

 

[Pokemonte13]

there are currently 3 Different patriot missiles in production/service
1. Pac 2 GEM-T: Based on the Pac 2 but has better hit probability against target especially ballistic missiles and use a fragmentation warhead.
2. Pac 3 CRI: (Cost reduction initiativ) Has a reduced range compared to Pac 2 but higher kill probability and is hit to kill and uses a single stage engine and the biggest difference are the attitude control thrusters.
3. Pac 3 MSE: (Missile segment enhancement) Greater Range compared to Pac 3 CRI and better maneuverability and overall systems upgrade plus a dual pulse rocket engine. Very expensive compared to the others and used for high value target (ballistic missiles).
Siper 1 would be closer to aster 30 than patriot.
Siper 2 is closest to Pac 2 GEM-T maybe with a better range and sensors with limited anti ballistic defences against TBM and maybe some SRBM.
Siper 3 is still unclear some say it will be like sm3 others say like Pac 3 MSE. Most likely it will be similar to MSE because, every block enhances to the next level and because its cheaper.