TR Air Defence Programs

[Manomed]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478403350768984067

When will we see our own C-RAM solution`?

We are dealing with the same threats. C-RAM is a life saver and a must for FOB in Iraq and Syria.

We lost 2 soldiers when Iranians attacked our fob In Iraq If there was a korkut there It wouldn't happened

 

[Yasar_TR]

Is the c-ram not the same as phalanx, only that the c ram is the land version? If thats the case. MKE developed the 20mm CIWS, while aselsan have the gokdeniz 35mm. This 2 systems is for naval use, but i dont know if they are planning to have a land based solution.

C-RAM is the acronym for ; Counter-Rocket, Artillery and Missile
There are many versions. Best known one is the US Phalanx CIWS.
Yes both our Gokdeniz and the MKE’s Phalanx lookalike CWIS solutions can be used as C-RAMs. In fact Gokdeniz has been developed for naval use from “Korkut” close in air defence system.

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/KORKUT_SSA_Kundagi_Motorlu_Namlulu_Alcak_Irtifa_Hava_Savunma_Silah_Sistemi_7763.pdf

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/KORKUT_KKA_7187.pdf

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/KORKUTIHATR_2246.pdf

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

C-RAM is the acronym for ; Counter-Rocket, Artillery and Missile
There are many versions. Best known one is the US Phalanx CIWS.
Yes both our Gokdeniz and the MKE’s Phalanx lookalike CWIS solutions can be used as C-RAMs. In fact Gokdeniz has been developed for naval use from “Korkut” close in air defence system.

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/KORKUT_SSA_Kundagi_Motorlu_Namlulu_Alcak_Irtifa_Hava_Savunma_Silah_Sistemi_7763.pdf

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/KORKUT_KKA_7187.pdf

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/KORKUTIHATR_2246.pdf

Really i didnt know that they developed the CIWS system based on the korkut air defence. I forgot completely about korkut! Would 20mm ciws not be a cheaper option then 35mm korkut?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Really i didnt know that they developed the CIWS system based on the korkut air defence. I forgot completely about korkut! Would 20mm ciws not be a cheaper option then 35mm korkut?

Not necessarily! 20mm Phalanx system is imported, and costly. Korkut and Gokdeniz are local production and have many commonalities. If you think about economies of scale, then Korkut/Gokdeniz appears to be more economical way to go for us. Also it has a longer engagement range than Phalanx, and more versatile with the ammunition it uses.
MKE’s 20mm Phalanx lookalike version is an unknown entity at the moment. It is still in development stage. Long time before it can be accepted and integrated in to ships.
We know that a PHALANX costs best part of 14 million dollars. There hasn’t been an open source about cost of Gokdeniz. However Korkut system is being used and in the inventory of Turkish armed forces.
Most important part of a CIWS system is to be able to engage multiple targets as far away from the ship or ground assets, and not run out of ammunition. Phalanx has a very good search and track system. But uses a lot of 20mm ammunition to execute a hard kill. And is tested and proven system. Gokdeniz doesn’t use as many rounds. But by forming a wall in front of the target it achieves it’s goal. And is just as effective if not more from a further distance. It doesn’t run out of ammunition as quickly as Phalanx would.
Until a local alternative of Phalanx is in use, my money is on Gokdeniz.

 

[Turko]

It doesn’t run out of ammunition as quickly as Phalanx would.

But Korkut has less ammunition since Phalanx has 1500 round which gives 15 engagements of counterattack.


Millennium gun has 252 round while it is bursting as hell. So neither Korkut nor Millennium can engage more than 5 times.

The only advantage of Korkut is longer range. İt is kinda between RAM and PHALANX. But as i said Korkut systems have very limited ammunition storage.

I am strongly sure that Phalanx superior however Phalanx is usually combined with RIM-116. Thus there is no gap.

Turkish Navy urges ASAP MKE 20mm CIWS as it is more compact than Korkut and more lighter than Phalanx.
Look at my Avatar.

 

[Yasar_TR]

But Korkut has less ammunition since Phalanx has 1500 round which gives 15 engagements of counterattack.


Millennium gun has 252 round while it is bursting as hell. So neither Korkut nor Millennium can engage more than 5 times.

The only advantage of Korkut is longer range. İt is kinda between RAM and PHALANX. But as i said Korkut systems have very limited ammunition storage.

I am strongly sure that Phalanx superior however Phalanx is usually combined with RIM-116. Thus there is no gap.

Turkish Navy urges ASAP MKE 20mm CIWS as it is more compact than Korkut and more lighter than Phalanx.
Look at my Avatar.

Korkut has 400 rounds of 35mm atom air burst ammunition. How many of these do you need to expend to form a barrier in front of the target?
Latest version of phalanx has a 4500rounds/minute fire rate. That means in 20 seconds it uses up all it’s ammo.
Korkut fires at a rate of 1100rounds/minute. So at nonstop firing they are about the same. But since Korkut doesn’t have to achieve hard kill to destroy target, it doesn’t use as many rounds as Phalanx. Gokdeniz however, has not revealed how many rounds it will house. But looking at the size of it’s armoury it is going to be a lot more than 400.

 

[yusuf]

But Korkut has less ammunition since Phalanx has 1500 round which gives 15 engagements of counterattack.


Millennium gun has 252 round while it is bursting as hell. So neither Korkut nor Millennium can engage more than 5 times.

The only advantage of Korkut is longer range. İt is kinda between RAM and PHALANX. But as i said Korkut systems have very limited ammunition storage.

I am strongly sure that Phalanx superior however Phalanx is usually combined with RIM-116. Thus there is no gap.

Turkish Navy urges ASAP MKE 20mm CIWS as it is more compact than Korkut and more lighter than Phalanx.
Look at my Avatar.

20mm can not make safe for the ships,debris of the missiles are very dangerous history tell us so just look back falkland war one of exoecet did not worked but fuel of the missile leads fire and the ship is sunk

 

[Turko]

Korkut has 400 rounds of 35mm atom air burst ammunition. How many of these do you need to expend to form a barrier in front of the target?
Latest version of phalanx has a 4500rounds/minute fire rate. That means in 20 seconds it uses up all it’s ammo.
Korkut fires at a rate of 1100rounds/minute. So at nonstop firing they are about the same. But since Korkut doesn’t have to achieve hard kill to destroy target, it doesn’t use as many rounds as Phalanx. Gokdeniz however, has not revealed how many rounds it will house. But looking at the size of it’s armoury it is going to be a lot more than 400.

Phalanx spends app 100 rounds for every engagement so 1500 rounds give 15 engagements.
I don't think Korkut has more than 252 35mm rounds. Difference between Millennium and Korkut just is a number of barrels. Although millennium has one barrel , the system uses double feed mechanism at left and right sides. I saw a double feeding mechanism of Millennium Gun but unfortunately i can't find it now.

EDIT : i found.

35mm Oerlikon KDA

KDA:

Also OERLIKON 35mm gun doesn't have too much capacity. Operators load ammunition while gun is firing.


Feeding mechanism of Sky shield might be different from Millennium.
Some images of Skyshield.

Look neither Skyshield nor Millennium Gun is more compact than Korkut.

 

[Siper>MMU]

Phalanx spends app 100 rounds for every engagement so 1500 rounds give 15 engagements.
I don't think Korkut has more than 252 35mm rounds. Difference between Millennium and Korkut just is a number of barrels. Although millennium has one barrel , the system uses double feed mechanism at left and right sides. I saw a double feeding mechanism of Millennium Gun but unfortunately i can't find it now.

EDIT : i found.

35mm Oerlikon KDA

KDA:
View attachment 38036
View attachment 38037


Also OERLIKON 35mm gun doesn't have too much capacity. Operators load ammunition while gun is firing.


Feeding mechanism of Sky shield might be different from Millennium.
Some images of Skyshield.

View attachment 38032
View attachment 38033
View attachment 38034
View attachment 38035
Look neither Skyshield nor Millennium Gun is more compact than Korkut.

Korkut has like 420~ rounds for its 2 guns. Both are almost the same gun except cannons because actually they are products of the same project..

 

[Turko]

Korkut has like 420~ rounds for its 2 guns. Both are almost the same gun except cannons because actually they are products of the same project..

I'm sorry but i doubt that it has 420 pieces 35 mm rounds.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I'm sorry but i doubt that it has 420 pieces 35 mm rounds.

View attachment 38039
View attachment 38040

According to this site Korkut has a bank of 400 rounds:
Quote:
Korkut 35mm SSA, 200’ü (namlu başına 100) uzaktan kumandalı kule içerisinde 200’ü de araç içinde olmak üzere toplam 400 adet 35mm mermi taşıma kapasitesine sahiptir.
Unquote.

Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri’nin Hava Savunma Top Sistemleri ve KORKUT | SavunmaSanayiST

Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri envanterinde bulunan Hava Savunma Top Sistemleri ve KORKUT Kundağı Motorlu Namlulu Alçak İrtifa Hava Savunma Top Sistemi Projesi

www.savunmasanayist.com

Gokdeniz, however is supposed to have even more rounds.
quote:
Gökdeniz‘in mermi kapasitesi açıklanmadı. Ancak hacmine bakılırsa çok fazla taşıyacak
Unquote.

Phalanx CIWS İle ASELSAN Gökdeniz CIWS Karşılaştırması

Bu yazımızda dünya donanmalarında (özellikle de NATO donanmalarında) en çok kullanılan yakın hava savunma sistemi General Dynamics Phalanx CIWS ile ASELSAN üretimi

mavivatan.net

 

[Anmdt]

According to this site Korkut has a bank of 400 rounds:
Quote:
Korkut 35mm SSA, 200’ü (namlu başına 100) uzaktan kumandalı kule içerisinde 200’ü de araç içinde olmak üzere toplam 400 adet 35mm mermi taşıma kapasitesine sahiptir.
Unquote.

Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri’nin Hava Savunma Top Sistemleri ve KORKUT | SavunmaSanayiST

Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri envanterinde bulunan Hava Savunma Top Sistemleri ve KORKUT Kundağı Motorlu Namlulu Alçak İrtifa Hava Savunma Top Sistemi Projesi

www.savunmasanayist.com

Gokdeniz, however is supposed to have even more rounds.
quote:
Gökdeniz‘in mermi kapasitesi açıklanmadı. Ancak hacmine bakılırsa çok fazla taşıyacak
Unquote.

Phalanx CIWS İle ASELSAN Gökdeniz CIWS Karşılaştırması

Bu yazımızda dünya donanmalarında (özellikle de NATO donanmalarında) en çok kullanılan yakın hava savunma sistemi General Dynamics Phalanx CIWS ile ASELSAN üretimi

mavivatan.net

What we know about Gökdeniz (solely gun part) so far;

• It is made to provide more engagements per reload compared to Phalanx.
• It provides better scalability of rounds-per-minute and switchable munition that is vital against anti-symmetric threats.
• Less agile than Phalanx but with the most recent configuration Navy is satisfied with the reaction performance in the most adverse threat approaches, there is no way to match reaction of Phalanx with the current architecture.
• Probably better in capturing supersonic-hypersonic threats by using pellet-clouds at longer and safer distances.
• Better if the threat is soft-shell, worse if the threat is hard-shell.

The rest of the advantages or disadvantages will be based on facts given above, so i am not listing those.

 

[Turko]

The longer range, the more trouble with the calculation of threat path. Imagine subsonic harpoon approaching to your warship , Gökdeniz starts engagement at 4km. But while 35mm round delivering at 4km , harpoon changes it's course as it's a cruise missile.

I didn't even mention about super sonic Anti Ship missiles.

IMHO the Best solution is combination of RIM-116 with 20mm CİWS. Americans know their shit. So i am looking forward to seeing Gökdeniz ER and MKE 20 Naval CIWS.

 

[Oublious]

But Korkut has less ammunition since Phalanx has 1500 round which gives 15 engagements of counterattack.


Millennium gun has 252 round while it is bursting as hell. So neither Korkut nor Millennium can engage more than 5 times.

The only advantage of Korkut is longer range. İt is kinda between RAM and PHALANX. But as i said Korkut systems have very limited ammunition storage.

I am strongly sure that Phalanx superior however Phalanx is usually combined with RIM-116. Thus there is no gap.

Turkish Navy urges ASAP MKE 20mm CIWS as it is more compact than Korkut and more lighter than Phalanx.
Look at my Avatar.

Do you now that amount of rounds is not enough for 15 engagements, a burst of fire is enough for several hunderd rounds. And loading a phalanx like system is difficult.

 

[Combat-Master]

The longer range, the more trouble with the calculation of threat path. Imagine subsonic harpoon approaching to your warship , Gökdeniz starts engagement at 4km. But while 35mm round delivering at 4km , harpoon changes it's course as it's a cruise missile.

I didn't even mention about super sonic Anti Ship missiles.

IMHO the Best solution is combination of RIM-116 with 20mm CİWS. Americans know their shit. So i am looking forward to seeing Gökdeniz ER and MKE 20 Naval CIWS.

If Aselsan's 35mm ATOM is traveling at 1,000m/s, do you reckon the harpoon traveling at 240m/s would make such a significant enough manoeuvre within 5 seconds ?

 

[Turko]

If Aselsan's 35mm ATOM is traveling at 1,000m/s, do you reckon the harpoon traveling at 240m/s would make such a significant enough manoeuvre within 5 seconds ?

So For 4 seconds harpoon could be far 1000 meters from 35mm shrapnels. Couldn't be ?
Just a guided missile could catch such an agile target. Or the target should be closer than 4 km if you want to use auto cannon.

Do you now that amount of rounds is not enough for 15 engagements, a burst of fire is enough for several hunderd rounds. And loading a phalanx like system is difficult.

According to internet sources Phalanx bursts 100 ammunition for an engagement however we don't know Korkut/Gökdeniz how much bursts?

Yet loading is difficult, phalanx has 1500 rounds. Again we don't know about ammunition capacity of Gökdeniz either feeding system.

Edit : phalanx is reloaded in 5 minutes.

Last ditch defence – the Phalanx close-in weapon system in focus | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

Please notice, Apart from subsonic Harpoon / Exocet, we havent started speaking about old gen supersonic Soviet Anti-ship missiles that Egyptians have.
And what about new gen supersonics such as Brahmos?

The moedling and simulation of antiship missile terminal maneuver penetration ability | Semantic Scholar

In order to enhance the mobile penetration ability of anti-ship missiles, according to the anti-ship missile and the ship to air missile combat process, reducing the interception probability of ship to air missile weapon system, the construction of spiral maneuvering anti-ship missile...

www.semanticscholar.org

Thus we should assume that against cruise missiles, anti-aircraft auto cannons, Gatling guns are inefficient further than 1500meters.

Those systems could be effective against mortars, artillery rockets, drones at 4 km but except cruise missiles that can maneuver.

Then why would you waste too much powerful cartridge, and sacrifice big space for it?

Less powerful programmable ammunition could also do same job.

Now i can understand why Rheinmetal metal revealed new 30mm cal millennium gun.

Rheinmetall Air Defence unveils its Skyranger 30 (upgraded) - EDR Magazine

By Paolo Valpolini “The Nagorno Karabakh conflict has shown a series of gaps in air defence assets,” Fabian Ochsner, Rheinmetall

www.edrmagazine.eu

 

[Combat-Master]

So For 4 seconds harpoon could be far 1000 meters from 35mm shrapnels. Couldn't be ?
Just a guided missile could catch such an agile target. Or the target should be closer than 4 km if you want to use auto cannon.

It could, if Harpoon had some sort of UFO tech to change direction whilst travelling at terminal speed towards it's target.

Whilst Harpoon is traveling at it's terminal speed towards it's target, a greater ranged CIWS like Gokdeniz has around 15 seconds to engage target. That's an extra 7 seconds then what Phanlanx 20mm effective range is capable of. Now, I don't know about you guys but I'd prefer CIWS that has greater effective range, like Gokdeniz and it's 35mm ATOM.

 

[Anmdt]

So For 4 seconds harpoon could be far 1000 meters from 35mm shrapnels. Couldn't be ?
Just a guided missile could catch such an agile target. Or the target should be closer than 4 km if you want to use auto cannon.


According to internet sources Phalanx bursts 100 ammunition for an engagement however we don't know Korkut/Gökdeniz how much bursts?

Yet loading is difficult, phalanx has 1500 rounds. Again we don't know about ammunition capacity of Gökdeniz either feeding system.

Edit : phalanx is reloaded in 5 minutes.
View attachment 38074

Last ditch defence – the Phalanx close-in weapon system in focus | Navy Lookout

www.navylookout.com

Please notice, Apart from subsonic Harpoon / Exocet, we havent started speaking about old gen supersonic Soviet Anti-ship missiles that Egyptians have.
And what about new gen supersonics such as Brahmos?

The moedling and simulation of antiship missile terminal maneuver penetration ability | Semantic Scholar

In order to enhance the mobile penetration ability of anti-ship missiles, according to the anti-ship missile and the ship to air missile combat process, reducing the interception probability of ship to air missile weapon system, the construction of spiral maneuvering anti-ship missile...

www.semanticscholar.org

View attachment 38072
View attachment 38073
View attachment 38075
Thus we should assume that against cruise missiles, anti-aircraft auto cannons, Gatling guns are inefficient further than 1500meters.

Those systems could be effective against mortars, artillery rockets, drones at 4 km but except cruise missiles that can maneuver.

Then why would you waste too much powerful cartridge, and sacrifice big space for it?

Less powerful programmable ammunition could also do same job.
View attachment 38079
Now i can understand why Rheinmetal metal revealed new 30mm cal millennium gun.

Rheinmetall Air Defence unveils its Skyranger 30 (upgraded) - EDR Magazine

By Paolo Valpolini “The Nagorno Karabakh conflict has shown a series of gaps in air defence assets,” Fabian Ochsner, Rheinmetall

www.edrmagazine.eu

Let me sum everything in this simple sentence;

Gökdeniz was tested thoroughly in development stage through simulations that accounts behavior of the most-advanced missiles thus their maneuvering characteristics and ammunition path with actual trajectory formulations (that was calibrated with various environmental conditions and cannon wear condition) up to supersonic speeds (3+ mach), from gliding type to low-speed ones.

So the discussion we may continue in here is quite basic compared to what people has done back then, we will lack the data they had, those complex formulations used for the direction changing capabilities of the encountered missile.

The article is quite weak for the assessment, it doesn't even provide %1 of the data to assess a CIWS system, the ones used in development was more sound predictions for the missile behaviour models.

If the question is; "Is Gökdeniz sufficient for the CIWS role?" the answer is " yes, it is as good as Millenium gun or Phalanx, even better in certain aspects".
If the question is; "Is Gökdeniz better than Phalanx?", the answer is "yes for certain aspects, no for certain aspects".
If the question is; "Is Gökdeniz good for C-RAM applications in the cities?", the answer is "No, unless you want to rain metallic pellets on people".

The comparisons you have made so far fits for the 3rd question, assuming and comparing 35mm and 20mm shells as if they are whole single shells while 35mm has pellets inside.

30-35mm is about the tech, if they find a way to fit electronics into a 30mm shell in future then they will do it, even to a 25mm one. But think it this way;
Gökdeniz, Korkut, improved - towed 35mm low-altitude defense system all uses the same mechanical system and ammunition that eases maintenance and logistics by a great extend. So if decision is made for 25-30mm in future, it shall be done with a common barrel, common reloading mechanism and mechanics. Now if time comes to urgent maintenance of Gökdeniz, that shall be done by a technicians affiliated to land forces in any of the ports with ease. For Phalanx you are going to seek for that technician who has the spares in stock, and then transfer him to the port that ship resides.

 

[Turko]

I quit insisting.

Bak bu da vatan evladı, bunu da biz yaptık. La bu Phalanx neetti size

Rolling missiles and 20mm CIWS combination is the better solution than 35mm Gökdeniz. İ quit.

 

[Combat-Master]

I quit insisting.

Bak bu da vatan evladı, bunu da biz yaptık. La bu Phalanx neetti size

Rolling missiles and 20mm CIWS combination is the better solution than 35mm Gökdeniz. İ quit.

Imagine having all three on a ship!

We got the Brrrrrrrrrrt, DakaDaka and Fshewwww