TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[TheInsider]

Could the fact that the negotiations are based on the FGR4 indicate that we want to buy some of these aircraft ready-made or from a series already in production for another country at Lancashire facility?

We urgently need a platform to replace the F4E Terminators. In other words, rather than a jet in the development phase, it may be desirable to have a completely seamless platform, when we are already dealing with a lot of integration and documentation work. Probably the main consideration here is that every single ordnance in the F4E catalog (except Popeyes) can be used in EFs. By the way, I know that the Qatar Eurofighters will be coming to Konya are also in this configuration.

If the purchase of 48 EFs can be achieved within a two-year timeframe, this will make the purchase of new F-16s unnecessary. Regarding the existing F-16 fleet, we may not be able to increase the number of aircrafts w conformal tank, but we can create our own modernization plan at the B-70 level in terms of avionics. This could have some political implications, which could undermine Greek F-35 initiatives, albeit to a limited extent, and on the other hand, could also increase the UK's enthusiasm for cooperation on the Hurjet and MMU projects.

It might be. It remains to be seen we know very little about TR-UK defense deals.

 

[Yasar_TR]

It is very wrong yo assume any such deal may be included. How often haven’t we believed things were included just to end up with a long nose afterwards.

don’t forget what we gain on battlefield we lose on the table.

First of all there is no deal that we know of. That is not what I am saying.
What I am suggesting is a possible outcome with respect to the way in which the whole UK-Turkey approach has been towards the defence issues.
We have not been told by either party about any deal being reached. But the way news about the engine and possible Typhoon purchase is progressing, I am extrapolating a possible outcome.
It may well be that none of it actually materialises. Or worse still there may be just a Typhoon purchase no motor deal (this I think will be a very wrong move on our behalf even though we need the Typhoons).

The important thing is whether intellectual property to stay in Turkey or in RR. If the Turkish side had agreed to keep the intellectual property in RR, this issue would have been resolved. İ thing even if huge EF typhoon purchase from UK may not solve this issue.

According to the news of RR/Kale offer that came out, the IP rights would be with RR/Kale but stay in Turkey. There would be no restrictions about selling the motors to third parties. No company would give you the IP rights and pass on to you modern jet engine technology, no matter how much money you are prepared to part with.

 

[Chocopie]

The important thing is whether intellectual property to stay in Turkey or in RR. If the Turkish side had agreed to keep the intellectual property in RR, this issue would have been resolved. İ thing even if huge EF typhoon purchase from UK may not solve this issue.
But if the deal is done as you say, then it will be a very profitable deal for Turkey.

IP for jet engine technology is more worth in the long run than cashing billions of dollars in the short run. Can‘t imagine that RR would give up the core assets of its business. Why should they? License production is the most realistic deal.

 

[TheInsider]

IP for jet engine technology is more worth in the long run than cashing billions of dollars in the short run. Can‘t imagine that RR would give up the core assets of its business. Why should they? License production is the most realistic deal.

Because everybody knows Turkiye will come up with an engine sooner or later. Every western jet engine producer works with TEI, and knows its capabilities. They know what TEI can do and can't do precisely. SSB won't accept any license production offer even if export rights are guaranteed.

 

[Chocopie]

Because everybody knows Turkiye will come up with an engine sooner or later. Every western jet engine producer works with TEI, and knows its capabilities. They know what TEI can do and can't do precisely. SSB won't accept any license production offer even if export rights are guaranteed.

As far as I know, no one of GE, P&W, Safran or RR has ever transferred IP rights for fighter jet engine tech to anybody.

Such a deal with Turkey or a Turkish company would be the first. Until TEI comes up with a comparable engine it‘s doubtful RR would give in beforehand.

 

[Nutuk]

As far as I know, no one of GE, P&W, Safran or RR has ever transferred IP rights for fighter jet engine tech to anybody.

Such a deal with Turkey or a Turkish company would be the first. Until TEI comes up with a comparable engine it‘s doubtful RR would give in beforehand.

Ge transferred tech to the Swedish Volvo, that is used in the Gripen fighter jet

 

[Heartbang]

As far as I know, no one of GE, P&W, Safran or RR has ever transferred IP rights for fighter jet engine tech to anybody.

Such a deal with Turkey or a Turkish company would be the first. Until TEI comes up with a comparable engine it‘s doubtful RR would give in beforehand.

Willingly, yes. In general though, there are exceptions.

Rolls-Royce Nene - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Its most widespread use was in the form of the Klimov VK-1, a reverse-engineered, modified and enlarged version which produced around 6,000 lbf (27 kN) of thrust, and powered the famous Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15, a highly successful fighter aircraft which was built in vast numbers.

Klimov VK-1 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 1958 it was discovered during a visit to Beijing by Whitney Straight, then deputy chairman of Rolls-Royce, that this engine had been copied without license to power the MiG-15 'Fagot', first as the RD-45, and after initial problems of metallurgy forced the Soviet engineers to develop a slightly redesigned (and metallurgically closer) copy, the engine had then entered production as the Klimov VK-1 (Rolls-Royce later attempted to claim £207m in license fees, without success).

Perhaps they'd try to put some officiality into it this time to not lose the license revenue.

 

[Chocopie]

Willingly, yes. In general though, there are exceptions.

Rolls-Royce Nene - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Klimov VK-1 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Perhaps they'd try to put some officiality into it this time to not lose the license revenue.

Thanks for the new info. An engine from the 40s, the Brits got scammed by the Soviets, hahaha.
But it's a clear case of illegal reverse engineering and not an legal IP transfer we are talking about.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Tech can be released or transferred in the form of machinery producing specific parts of an engine.
But that does not mean those parts and the engine can be sold to third parties freely.

Quote:

The US engines (F404/F414) that are the source of parts for the Volvo engines are military products controlled by the ITAR. When parts are exported separately from the complete engine, the export controls are set at the part level. So some parts may be controlled differently than others. But, in general any part controlled by the ITAR will require a license from the Dept of State before it can be exported. It is also possible that some components may be EAR controlled and require a license from the Dept of Commerce.

The licenses for export do contain restrictions on use, the end user, and reexport. That is typically spelled out in the individual license. Also, the 'technology' needed to transform the parts into an engine is controlled separately. That includes drawings, software, tooling, etc.

Unquote .

As far as I know, no one of GE, P&W, Safran or RR has ever transferred IP rights for fighter jet engine tech to anybody.

Such a deal with Turkey or a Turkish company would be the first. Until TEI comes up with a comparable engine it‘s doubtful RR would give in beforehand.

According to what the Kale Director had explained, my understanding of the offer involves a deal between Turkey and TAEC (Kale/RR 51/49 partnership) in such a way that TAEC is to have the IP rights. Therefore RR is not relinquishing its hold on the engine that is to be developed. But TAEC can redevelop the engine in the future, with RR’s consent.
How much technology RR is going to release so that Kale is to be able to become a second TEI, is another story.

 

[Rodeo]

As far as I know, no one of GE, P&W, Safran or RR has ever transferred IP rights for fighter jet engine tech to anybody.

Such a deal with Turkey or a Turkish company would be the first. Until TEI comes up with a comparable engine it‘s doubtful RR would give in beforehand.

In 2009, GE transfered blisk manufacturing technology to TEI.

TEI HAS MANUFACTURED TURKEY’S FIRST INTEGRAL COMPRESSOR PALE AND DISC (BLISK) PIECE

Competing among the world’s leading manufacturers in aircraft engines, TEI h

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Heartbang]

But it's a clear case of illegal reverse engineering and not an legal IP transfer we are talking about.

That's what I meant by opening with the lines of
"Willingly, yes. In general though, there are exceptions."

 

[Chocopie]

Ge transferred tech to the Swedish Volvo, that is used in the Gripen fighter jet

Tech transfer or IP rights transfer? Afaik core IP rights of F404 and F414 engines are owned by GE.

 

[Nutuk]

Yes but the IP rights of volvo engine which is a version of the F404 belongs to Sweden

 

[Chocopie]

In 2009, GE transfered blisk manufacturing technology to TEI.

TEI HAS MANUFACTURED TURKEY’S FIRST INTEGRAL COMPRESSOR PALE AND DISC (BLISK) PIECE

Competing among the world’s leading manufacturers in aircraft engines, TEI h

www.defenceturkey.com

That's a great deal for TEI and Turkey. Transferring manufacturing technology is still different to IP rights for jet engine technology. Never happened so far by Western jet engine manufacturers.

Even the Russians don't do that, the Chinese obtained their tech through reverse engineering and stealing and they needed decades to come up with reliable engines.

 

[Chocopie]

Yes but the IP rights of volvo engine which is a version of the F404 belongs to Sweden

Only the IP rights for parts the Swedes themselves had developed. 65% of the engine were produced by GE (e.g. hot core/section the most important part) with all IP rights belonging to GE delivered for final assembly in Sweden. The Swedes can't manufacture their F404 without GE.

 

[Chocopie]

According to what the Kale Director had explained, my understanding of the offer involves a deal between Turkey and TAEC (Kale/RR 51/49 partnership) in such a way that TAEC is to have the IP rights. Therefore RR is not relinquishing its hold on the engine that is to be developed. But TAEC can redevelop the engine in the future, with RR’s consent.
How much technology RR is going to release so that Kale is to be able to become a second TEI, is another story.

Ah, now I understand what everbody meant here regarding "IP rights". How much technology RR would release in a deal? Maximum as least as possible I guess

 

[Yasar_TR]

Only the IP rights for parts the Swedes themselves had developed. 65% of the engine were produced by GE (e.g. hot core/section the most important part) with all IP rights belonging to GE delivered for final assembly in Sweden. The Swedes can't manufacture their F404 without GE.

An engine is an entity in its own right. If it is called f404 then no matter how many parts or how much of it is produced by Volvo or TEI or IHI, it’s IP rights stay with GE. Without GE’s permission they can not produce the whole engine and they can not develop the engine to a more upgraded level.
Your last sentence puts the full stop on the discussion.

 

[Windchime]

Quite likely!
They would not have forwarded their offer if they had not have a design in hand already , as we would not have entertained their offer.
From what is discussed it looks like they are developing an engine for Tempest project using technologies present in the Pearl engines, like the Blisks in both fan stage and compressor stage.
Pearl engine is smaller in size than what is needed for TFX. But can already develop up to 20000lbf dry thrust, enabling the commercial plane it powers to fly transonic (going in to supersonic domain intermittently). Using this tech in their new engines they can produce a version of it for the TFX that would suffice for a 5th generation plane’s needs.

Have a look at TFX thread my post #5282?

Like I've said in TF-X thread as a reply to your post back then on posts 5295 and 5313, GCAP engine will be based on the Anglo-Japanese design based on RR XG240 and IHI XF9.

No, it doesn't have any direct link to Orpheus and even less to the Pearl family of engines, which are built for biz jets.

 

[Turan]

IP for jet engine technology is more worth in the long run than cashing billions of dollars in the short run. Can‘t imagine that RR would give up the core assets of its business. Why should they? License production is the most realistic deal.

i wanted to say the same thing

 

[what]

There is nothing on BBC, the source is a shady twitter user = fake news.