TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Lool]

UK is after the big cake; TFX engine deal and a large order for Typhoons.

F119 engine was worth 9.5 million dollars in 2006. With today’s dollar that makes 14.5million dollars.

Ancile

www.deagel.com

Rolls Royce, if given the engine project, will probably produce in Turkey and sell this engine with all it’s rights staying in Turkey, for in excess of 15 million dollars each.
Turkey needs to produce in excess of 250+ TFX planes until 2040s and beyond for her own airforce. There should be as much for export as well. That makes nearly 1100 engines, worth upwards of 17 billion dollars. Add to this the engines for the 48 Typhoons and new engines for 20+ Tranche1. The engine deal is worth close to 20 billion dollars.
48 Typhoons will be around 10billion dollars on their own.
So the big cake is nearly 30billion dollars. This is not taking in to account the M60 tank engines, and a prospective supply of EJ200s for the Hurjet for the light attack version too
4 x Type 23 frigates at 25 million each are peanuts, and can even be offered as a sweetener; If already hasn’t been done so!
To have such a defence relation for such a protracted length of time between two countries will have more economical advantages for both countries along the lines of cross insemination. Especially for the UK side.
The deal for the TFX engine lies in the heart of this entire defence collaboration.

This is just my 2 cents on the issue but I think that it is quite wrong to give RR the engine deal at this stage

TEI-TF 6000's prototype is being built at the moment and TEI-TF10000 will have its prototype built by the end of the year. Moreover, TEI-TF35000 will have its prototype built by the end of 2024, as far as I remember! Thus, in just 3 years time, Turkey may have a decent engine family with national means and this will save Turkey's ass in the future rather than Rolls Royce that may give Turkey the middle finger at any moment

 

[Yasar_TR]

can you share any source on that please? Because AFAIK is Tempsets engine is completely next generation development, specially the core engine.

Only time i heard about anything pearl derived, is from TEI CEO in conversation about RR possible option for TFX.

Have a look at TFX thread my post #5282?

 

[Saithan]

It is very wrong yo assume any such deal may be included. How often haven’t we believed things were included just to end up with a long nose afterwards.

don’t forget what we gain on battlefield we lose on the table.

 

[Turan]

UK is after the big cake; TFX engine deal and a large order for Typhoons.

F119 engine was worth 9.5 million dollars in 2006. With today’s dollar that makes 14.5million dollars.

Ancile

www.deagel.com

Rolls Royce, if given the engine project, will probably produce in Turkey and sell this engine with all it’s rights staying in Turkey, for in excess of 15 million dollars each.
Turkey needs to produce in excess of 250+ TFX planes until 2040s and beyond for her own airforce. There should be as much for export as well. That makes nearly 1100 engines, worth upwards of 17 billion dollars. Add to this the engines for the 48 Typhoons and new engines for 20+ Tranche1. The engine deal is worth close to 20 billion dollars.
48 Typhoons will be around 10billion dollars on their own.
So the big cake is nearly 30billion dollars. This is not taking in to account the M60 tank engines, and a prospective supply of EJ200s for the Hurjet for the light attack version too
4 x Type 23 frigates at 25 million each are peanuts, and can even be offered as a sweetener; If already hasn’t been done so!
To have such a defence relation for such a protracted length of time between two countries will have more economical advantages for both countries along the lines of cross insemination. Especially for the UK side.
The deal for the TFX engine lies in the heart of this entire defence collaboration.

The important thing is whether intellectual property to stay in Turkey or in RR. If the Turkish side had agreed to keep the intellectual property in RR, this issue would have been resolved. İ thing even if huge EF typhoon purchase from UK may not solve this issue.
But if the deal is done as you say, then it will be a very profitable deal for Turkey.

 

[TheInsider]

Isn't it ridiculous? A state with 10 million citizens are planning to have a better army than us. How they can sustain such expense? I mean is this our fault or their success?

It can be done with outside help. If the US really wants to push it to another level it can donate 3 billion to Greece annually to be spent on American weapons.

 

[TheInsider]

This is just my 2 cents on the issue but I think that it is quite wrong to give RR the engine deal at this stage

TEI-TF 6000's prototype is being built at the moment and TEI-TF10000 will have its prototype built by the end of the year. Moreover, TEI-TF35000 will have its prototype built by the end of 2024, as far as I remember! Thus, in just 3 years time, Turkey may have a decent engine family with national means and this will save Turkey's ass in the future rather than Rolls Royce that may give Turkey the middle finger at any moment

LooooooL there is no way a TF-35000 prototype to appear in 2024. Are you guys out of your mind? The end of 2026 is presented as a best-case scenario for the first ignition. This puts availability in 2030 at best.

 

[TheInsider]

Could the fact that the negotiations are based on the FGR4 indicate that we want to buy some of these aircraft ready-made or from a series already in production for another country at Lancashire facility?

We urgently need a platform to replace the F4E Terminators. In other words, rather than a jet in the development phase, it may be desirable to have a completely seamless platform, when we are already dealing with a lot of integration and documentation work. Probably the main consideration here is that every single ordnance in the F4E catalog (except Popeyes) can be used in EFs. By the way, I know that the Qatar Eurofighters will be coming to Konya are also in this configuration.

If the purchase of 48 EFs can be achieved within a two-year timeframe, this will make the purchase of new F-16s unnecessary. Regarding the existing F-16 fleet, we may not be able to increase the number of aircrafts w conformal tank, but we can create our own modernization plan at the B-70 level in terms of avionics. This could have some political implications, which could undermine Greek F-35 initiatives, albeit to a limited extent, and on the other hand, could also increase the UK's enthusiasm for cooperation on the Hurjet and MMU projects.

It might be. It remains to be seen we know very little about TR-UK defense deals.

 

[Yasar_TR]

It is very wrong yo assume any such deal may be included. How often haven’t we believed things were included just to end up with a long nose afterwards.

don’t forget what we gain on battlefield we lose on the table.

First of all there is no deal that we know of. That is not what I am saying.
What I am suggesting is a possible outcome with respect to the way in which the whole UK-Turkey approach has been towards the defence issues.
We have not been told by either party about any deal being reached. But the way news about the engine and possible Typhoon purchase is progressing, I am extrapolating a possible outcome.
It may well be that none of it actually materialises. Or worse still there may be just a Typhoon purchase no motor deal (this I think will be a very wrong move on our behalf even though we need the Typhoons).

The important thing is whether intellectual property to stay in Turkey or in RR. If the Turkish side had agreed to keep the intellectual property in RR, this issue would have been resolved. İ thing even if huge EF typhoon purchase from UK may not solve this issue.

According to the news of RR/Kale offer that came out, the IP rights would be with RR/Kale but stay in Turkey. There would be no restrictions about selling the motors to third parties. No company would give you the IP rights and pass on to you modern jet engine technology, no matter how much money you are prepared to part with.

 

[Chocopie]

The important thing is whether intellectual property to stay in Turkey or in RR. If the Turkish side had agreed to keep the intellectual property in RR, this issue would have been resolved. İ thing even if huge EF typhoon purchase from UK may not solve this issue.
But if the deal is done as you say, then it will be a very profitable deal for Turkey.

IP for jet engine technology is more worth in the long run than cashing billions of dollars in the short run. Can‘t imagine that RR would give up the core assets of its business. Why should they? License production is the most realistic deal.

 

[TheInsider]

IP for jet engine technology is more worth in the long run than cashing billions of dollars in the short run. Can‘t imagine that RR would give up the core assets of its business. Why should they? License production is the most realistic deal.

Because everybody knows Turkiye will come up with an engine sooner or later. Every western jet engine producer works with TEI, and knows its capabilities. They know what TEI can do and can't do precisely. SSB won't accept any license production offer even if export rights are guaranteed.

 

[Chocopie]

Because everybody knows Turkiye will come up with an engine sooner or later. Every western jet engine producer works with TEI, and knows its capabilities. They know what TEI can do and can't do precisely. SSB won't accept any license production offer even if export rights are guaranteed.

As far as I know, no one of GE, P&W, Safran or RR has ever transferred IP rights for fighter jet engine tech to anybody.

Such a deal with Turkey or a Turkish company would be the first. Until TEI comes up with a comparable engine it‘s doubtful RR would give in beforehand.

 

[Nutuk]

As far as I know, no one of GE, P&W, Safran or RR has ever transferred IP rights for fighter jet engine tech to anybody.

Such a deal with Turkey or a Turkish company would be the first. Until TEI comes up with a comparable engine it‘s doubtful RR would give in beforehand.

Ge transferred tech to the Swedish Volvo, that is used in the Gripen fighter jet

 

[Heartbang]

As far as I know, no one of GE, P&W, Safran or RR has ever transferred IP rights for fighter jet engine tech to anybody.

Such a deal with Turkey or a Turkish company would be the first. Until TEI comes up with a comparable engine it‘s doubtful RR would give in beforehand.

Willingly, yes. In general though, there are exceptions.

Rolls-Royce Nene - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Its most widespread use was in the form of the Klimov VK-1, a reverse-engineered, modified and enlarged version which produced around 6,000 lbf (27 kN) of thrust, and powered the famous Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15, a highly successful fighter aircraft which was built in vast numbers.

Klimov VK-1 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 1958 it was discovered during a visit to Beijing by Whitney Straight, then deputy chairman of Rolls-Royce, that this engine had been copied without license to power the MiG-15 'Fagot', first as the RD-45, and after initial problems of metallurgy forced the Soviet engineers to develop a slightly redesigned (and metallurgically closer) copy, the engine had then entered production as the Klimov VK-1 (Rolls-Royce later attempted to claim £207m in license fees, without success).

Perhaps they'd try to put some officiality into it this time to not lose the license revenue.

 

[Chocopie]

Willingly, yes. In general though, there are exceptions.

Rolls-Royce Nene - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Klimov VK-1 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Perhaps they'd try to put some officiality into it this time to not lose the license revenue.

Thanks for the new info. An engine from the 40s, the Brits got scammed by the Soviets, hahaha.
But it's a clear case of illegal reverse engineering and not an legal IP transfer we are talking about.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Tech can be released or transferred in the form of machinery producing specific parts of an engine.
But that does not mean those parts and the engine can be sold to third parties freely.

Quote:

The US engines (F404/F414) that are the source of parts for the Volvo engines are military products controlled by the ITAR. When parts are exported separately from the complete engine, the export controls are set at the part level. So some parts may be controlled differently than others. But, in general any part controlled by the ITAR will require a license from the Dept of State before it can be exported. It is also possible that some components may be EAR controlled and require a license from the Dept of Commerce.

The licenses for export do contain restrictions on use, the end user, and reexport. That is typically spelled out in the individual license. Also, the 'technology' needed to transform the parts into an engine is controlled separately. That includes drawings, software, tooling, etc.

Unquote .

As far as I know, no one of GE, P&W, Safran or RR has ever transferred IP rights for fighter jet engine tech to anybody.

Such a deal with Turkey or a Turkish company would be the first. Until TEI comes up with a comparable engine it‘s doubtful RR would give in beforehand.

According to what the Kale Director had explained, my understanding of the offer involves a deal between Turkey and TAEC (Kale/RR 51/49 partnership) in such a way that TAEC is to have the IP rights. Therefore RR is not relinquishing its hold on the engine that is to be developed. But TAEC can redevelop the engine in the future, with RR’s consent.
How much technology RR is going to release so that Kale is to be able to become a second TEI, is another story.

 

[Rodeo]

As far as I know, no one of GE, P&W, Safran or RR has ever transferred IP rights for fighter jet engine tech to anybody.

Such a deal with Turkey or a Turkish company would be the first. Until TEI comes up with a comparable engine it‘s doubtful RR would give in beforehand.

In 2009, GE transfered blisk manufacturing technology to TEI.

TEI HAS MANUFACTURED TURKEY’S FIRST INTEGRAL COMPRESSOR PALE AND DISC (BLISK) PIECE

Competing among the world’s leading manufacturers in aircraft engines, TEI h

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Heartbang]

But it's a clear case of illegal reverse engineering and not an legal IP transfer we are talking about.

That's what I meant by opening with the lines of
"Willingly, yes. In general though, there are exceptions."

 

[Chocopie]

Ge transferred tech to the Swedish Volvo, that is used in the Gripen fighter jet

Tech transfer or IP rights transfer? Afaik core IP rights of F404 and F414 engines are owned by GE.

 

[Nutuk]

Yes but the IP rights of volvo engine which is a version of the F404 belongs to Sweden

 

[Chocopie]

In 2009, GE transfered blisk manufacturing technology to TEI.

TEI HAS MANUFACTURED TURKEY’S FIRST INTEGRAL COMPRESSOR PALE AND DISC (BLISK) PIECE

Competing among the world’s leading manufacturers in aircraft engines, TEI h

www.defenceturkey.com

That's a great deal for TEI and Turkey. Transferring manufacturing technology is still different to IP rights for jet engine technology. Never happened so far by Western jet engine manufacturers.

Even the Russians don't do that, the Chinese obtained their tech through reverse engineering and stealing and they needed decades to come up with reliable engines.