TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

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The Turkish Air Force will acquire 240 Kaans between 2028 and 2040. By 2040, the Turkish Air Force's fighter fleet will consist of 40 Eurofighters, 120 F16s, and 240 Kaans.

Considering that we will switch to a domestic engine after 2035, 240 Kaan is impossible.
 

Zoth

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Considering that we will switch to a domestic engine after 2035, 240 Kaan is impossible.

And that’s if everything goes well.

Exactly this, we don't even know if we are going to receive the f110 engines or not.
We are talking about a country who refuses to give us the jets that we paid for, they don't even consider giving us back the money.

If USA goes full crazy and decides to not give us engines, both Hurjet and Kaan will get delayed by so many years if we decide to not find any alternative.

We have alternatives, but even if we decide to go that route, it will delay the projects at least a year or two to adapt to those alternative engines.

I'm not going to lie, i hope what i mentioned above happens, because i think that in the long term , it will be much better for us to get the alternatives of F404(WS-13) and F110(WS-10).

I personally don't trust Americans at all at this rate, we made very good deals with Chinese and they stay loyal to their agreements, by simply letting Varyag pass the straits, we gained a very important technology which led to Hisar and then to Siper.


I don't know what others think, i would love to hear your opinions too.
 
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dBSPL

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IMO, 200+ KAAN and 80 Eurofighter+Viper is enough investment in TurAF (until it moves toward 6th gen platforms in 25 years or so.) As there will be hundreds of loyal wingman alongside these manned platforms. Which I don't think were given enough attention in 2000s and early 2010s. Back then the Concept of 5th gen areal warfare with the MUM-T at the center of it wasn't widely accepted. Even for USAF.

Technically Türkiye can still procure more KAAN. But in the end it is about overall trade-off and balancing between Air, land, Naval and space capabilities. And i think that money is better invested elsewhere with more return potential for strategic effect. Like an SSN program. (Which definitely doesn't get enough attention here among Turkish industry enthusiasts.)

If we ignore the efforts that were thwarted in the early years of the Republic; The Turkish Air Force has come to this day with a platform acquisition adventure that is completely dependent on foreign sources. KAAN is not only a new generation combatant platform, but also a domestic industrial product , that will be designed and produced directly in line with the needs and doctrines of TAF. The money will not go to Lockheed or Northop, but to Aselsan and TAI... Every stage of maintenance, and all logistics of the aircraft will be provided by domestic means, every penny spent will go to domestic institutions and companies. Not only the generation transition, a new era is opening in the air force as multidimensional mean. Let's keep this in mind.

This airframe will continuously develop and will have a production line for at least 20 years, maybe over 30 years. Maybe 15 years later, another main combatant program by TAI will be done on another airframe, but this airframe will definitely remain in production for many years. There have been fleets that have been closed due to external dependency in the active fleet structure, aging platforms, accidents, or other platform supply-based problems. Years ago, when KAAN was still a project on paper and TAF was still a part of JSF, authorized sources speculated that the new generation jet supply would be over 300 F-35+KAAN in total. In today's situation, my logic is saying that the possible KAAN airframe production number that we heard about ten years ago should be revised upwards and that this average platform need that we heard about ten years ago should be met in this way.

Because let alone next 25 years, even in the past 10 years, our risk perception has just increased exponentially. We are struggling with wars or near-war problems on 4 sides, which of our foreign followers would be surprised if one morning the world media wrote that the Turkish state was caught in a war? The threat is real, and it's close enough to engulf you at any moment.

Our fleet numbers are decreasing because we cannot supply aircraft, the country is under a serious security threat and this is increasing, the region is a boiling cauldron. This is one side of the scale; on the other side of the scale there is the domestic industry, engineering and workforce that is now quite developed and can meet its own aviation needs. On the other side, efforts to increase our pilot numbers are becoming increasingly diverse, unmanned aviation will not kill manned combat aviation.

I am simply adding up the data that is available, I am not doing anything else. In this case, there is not a single data that can make me believe that the Turkish Air Force will shrink in terms of main combat platforms in the transition to the new generation.
 
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godel44

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With the assignments Trump is doing, I would expect there to be serious problems with the US in the next 4 years, due to PKK, Israel-Hamas, or Greece or any other reason they can drum up. Hopefully the F110 engine can be procured in the background and they can be satisfied making a big show of denying us the F-35. But an engine embargo and delay of a few years in Kaan is a distinct possibility that we are hopefully preparing for.
 

uçuyorum

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Didn't someone from TAI at some point say they expected total KAAN production including exports was expected to be around 300?
 

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Eurofighter is many things, but it's not new.
I meant it would be a new product that we would have to get familiar with.

And I can see people are high on stuff again, counting their eggs and birds well ahead of realities.

Let's just make 100 hürkus with domestic engine, just to be a little safer. We can give those to Africa etc. once we get real jets.
 
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Huelague

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You cant see who replied am i?

Without continuous flow of order..what do you expect?

Thats why its important for pruducer country's orders to spread over the years
T. Kotil was clear about that. I will trust more in his words.
 

Zoth

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T. Kotil was clear about that. I will trust more in his words.
The planned production rate of Kaan is 2 per month in a scenario where there is no production issues, so assuming that everything goes well: we can build 24 Kaans per year which adds up to 240 in 10 years, that's already enough spreading of production.

In my opinion, it's really early to talk about how many Kaans we are going to produce when we are still lacking the most important part of a jet fighter, the engine.
The engine, the radar and many other important avionics of Kaan hasn't even entered into serial production, let's fix those first then we can talk about how many Kaans we should build.

We are trying to run while we can't even knee walk yet. My humble and totally amateur opinion is still the same since many years, we should've focus on Hurjet, make an engine for it, and with the experience we learned from it make a damn engine for Kaan. Hurjet's success potential is much bigger when we think about short time solutions.
 

Saithan

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Hence I think it's more important to semi-serial produce Hürjet as soon as possible if trainer (unarmed) version is accepted, then we should start with that, and as many as possible. Especially if it's relatively safe to change it to lightarmed version afterwards (if it becomes absolutely necessary in case of war).
 

Zoth

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Hence I think it's more important to semi-serial produce Hürjet as soon as possible if trainer (unarmed) version is accepted, then we should start with that, and as many as possible. Especially if it's relatively safe to change it to lightarmed version afterwards (if it becomes absolutely necessary in case of war).
This, this, this, and 100 times this. But we don't even have a damn domestic engine project for it, i don't know at this rate, is it me who overvalues Hurjet or they undervalue it? Maybe due to Kizilelma they don't think that Hurjet is important, i don't really know.
 

TheInsider

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The Turkish Air Force will acquire 240 Kaans between 2028 and 2040. By 2040, the Turkish Air Force's fighter fleet will consist of 40 Eurofighters, 120 F16s, and 240 Kaans.
This is the plan. The requirement is 240 Kaans after Turkiye is kicked out of the F-35 program. Will there be any delays? Likely but your guess is as good as mine. Turkish Air Force wants a fleet of 400 fighters with a 2/3 ratio of 4.5th and 5th/5.5th gen fighters. You make plans and you want to execute it as well as possible but in the end, Turkiye will produce 240 fighters for its own needs.
 

Saithan

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I believe it's easier for us to buy trainer jet engine from US (getting Senate permission) than buying for an armed Hürjet.

So the resistance and argument and counterarguments will be extremely reduced. But I do not believe that is going to be the case when we present to the world our light armed Hürjet.

So by ordering the engine for trainer jet (while no armed version of it exists) we don't give those in the Senate ammunition to refuse us the sale and those who are more pro Türkey can much easier get through with the sale.

What we must avoid is. We must under no circumstance transform a trainer jet to lightarmed combat jet because they'll cut the export and say we don't stick to our promise bla bla bla. hopefully we should have 90+ trainers built before trying to get a deal for armed hürjet.

If they refuse we can transform the trainer jet to combat jet.
 

hugh

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I believe it's easier for us to buy trainer jet engine from US (getting Senate permission) than buying for an armed Hürjet.

So the resistance and argument and counterarguments will be extremely reduced. But I do not believe that is going to be the case when we present to the world our light armed Hürjet.

So by ordering the engine for trainer jet (while no armed version of it exists) we don't give those in the Senate ammunition to refuse us the sale and those who are more pro Türkey can much easier get through with the sale.

What we must avoid is. We must under no circumstance transform a trainer jet to lightarmed combat jet because they'll cut the export and say we don't stick to our promise bla bla bla. hopefully we should have 90+ trainers built before trying to get a deal for armed hürjet.

If they refuse we can transform the trainer jet to combat jet.
If they don't provide engines for LCA Hürjet, then we'd be in deep trouble as there's no way we could acquire F110s for KAAN.
 

UkroTurk

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Trump was the who sanctioned F-35 deal however democrats were okay with f-16 viper purchase.

Trump didn't listen national security advisors more than 5 minutes in daily briefings of white house. Since he is mad he could do everything. Unpredictable.
 

Rooxbar

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Trump was the who sanctioned F-35 deal however democrats were okay with f-16 viper purchase.

Trump didn't listen national security advisors more than 5 minutes in daily briefings of white house. Since he is mad he could do everything. Unpredictable.
Although his appointees are extreme people, that has more to do with the pool of available people from the gop. There are no non-crazy person in the gop wrt issues concerning mid-east and us. The silver lining is Trump is seemingly going for the people among the crazies who are sycophants, so they will probably be more clerical rather than independent although the general political culture there is mostly "israel first" as they say, so it will be very hard for Trump or Vance to go against that even if they want to. I don't think the F110s will be a problem as Israelis and the think tanks close to them haven't really made any fusses about it in the past years, unless their plan is to wait and see if the project succeeds and what the specifications and achievements will be in that regard, and make us depend on the engines in the meanwhile, to be able to sabotage in later stages.
 

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