TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Saithan]

We have a saying, burnu biraz sürtülsün. Which means it's time to get down from that high horse.

Like @Yasar_TR said he's fortunate to have right connections.

 

[TR_123456]

He has truly boo-booed big time here.
Mixed up cost of manufacture with cost of buying whilst exaggerating out of proportions to make a point.

@TheInsider has made it clear in his posts as well.

The guy is a genius in his field. He has the good luck of being well connected. He should know better to rein in his salesmanship impulses.

The KE is the future of air combat. But with a turbofan jet engine, a state of the art Murad Aesa radar and avionics, plus munitions that are suitable for such a platform and ground control units, it’s cost to prospective buyers is not going to be too far off most manned aircrafts like JF17 and baseline f16. One mustn’t forget the fact that good capable ground operators/pilots are also needed for these.

Yes by his logic the KE would cost $80 million devided by 20 which is $4 million a piece and what makes it cheaper then the TB-2 at $5 millon a piece.
Acting like its done without having a NATO standard engine is also a ridiculous claim.
But why not,if they eat it just feed them more.

 

[Zafer]

Selçuk Bayraktar is talking about when fighter jets are offered to some buyers at premium prices like the ones custom made for the UAE. In those cases the prices go up exponentially. He should tone down his narrative to the perception capability of the audience who mixes up hypothetical talk with reality.

 

[Turkic]

Yes by his logic the KE would cost $80 million devided by 20 which is $4 million a piece and what makes it cheaper then the TB-2 at $5 millon a piece.
Acting like its done without having a NATO standard engine is also a ridiculous claim.
But why not,if they eat it just feed them more.

Ig you didn't read the thread.

He didn't say that

He said Kızılelma will be 5-10 times cheaper than manned fighter jets.

Later Fulya forced him on the topic and he said "I can't say if it will be 20 times cheaper. Fighter jets aren't sold for fixed prices. It can be 20-30 times cheaper if you count all (referring to the Eurofighter/Rafale sales with a price tag of up to 300 million euros per jet when all spare parts and others added)"

It's not the exact conversation. I translated with what's left in my mind from last night but that was what he said. He said 5-10 times cheaper than 5th gen manned fighters. When he said 20-30 times was after Fulya asked him if it will be 20 times cheaper than F-16.

So it's not Selçuk's fault but media's.

 

[Ripley]

‘Tis Sick, bruh

the best visual of the shoot is at 1:38

Hope they release higher res images as well.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1953491646647017492

“The Turkish Stars Acrobatic Team soared over Beyşehir Lake; our Göktürk-1 Satellite immortalized this moment from space.

This moment, where courage in the skies met space technology (the Turkish Stars Acrobatic Team flying at an altitude of 100 meters with a speed of 740 km/hour, and Göktürk-1 at an orbital altitude of 686 km with an orbital speed of 7.5 km/second), became a photograph of a national harmony and coordination locked onto its target.”

 

[Sanchez]

‘Tis Sick, bruh

the best visual of the shoot is at 1:38

Hope they release higher res images as well.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1953491646647017492

“The Turkish Stars Acrobatic Team soared over Beyşehir Lake; our Göktürk-1 Satellite immortalized this moment from space.

This moment, where courage in the skies met space technology (the Turkish Stars Acrobatic Team flying at an altitude of 100 meters with a speed of 740 km/hour, and Göktürk-1 at an orbital altitude of 686 km with an orbital speed of 7.5 km/second), became a photograph of a national harmony and coordination locked onto its target.”

Bigger news is that they have 7 aircraft simultaneously. They've been flying with 6 for so long. Maintenance guys must have saved up another airframe, heroes.

 

[Quasar]

-I am hoping that we solve the engine issue for KIZILELMA and ANKA 3 as soon as possibe with domestic engines sure it may effect the price tag of KIZILELMA and ANKA 3. Further, I strongly belive that both KIZILELMA and ANKA3 will have diffrent configurations so making price comparisons to F 16 is mainly for public consumption I guess.

-Contrary to the common assumption ( which lacks sound arguments to support it) KIZILELMA & ANKA have unprecedented potantial as a complementary assets in BVR engagement in network centric warfare and Even in some cases they have the potantial to hold the ground even when they are alone without a manned fighter aircraft. Making them operational and developing a doctrine and strategies is vital.

-I think we may all agree that in Air to Air engagements not only the platform but also the A2A missles you have is equally important and in some cases even more important.

 

[Strong AI]

-I think we may all agree that in Air to Air engagements not only the platform but also the A2A missles you have is equally important and in some cases even more important.

Missile, Sensors, Datalink, Sensor Fusion, EW and Stealth. Also the launching platform should be able to fly high (+40k feet) and at supersonic speeds. Türkiye will have all of them in the near future.

 

[godel44]

‘Tis Sick, bruh

the best visual of the shoot is at 1:38

Hope they release higher res images as well.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1953491646647017492

“The Turkish Stars Acrobatic Team soared over Beyşehir Lake; our Göktürk-1 Satellite immortalized this moment from space.

This moment, where courage in the skies met space technology (the Turkish Stars Acrobatic Team flying at an altitude of 100 meters with a speed of 740 km/hour, and Göktürk-1 at an orbital altitude of 686 km with an orbital speed of 7.5 km/second), became a photograph of a national harmony and coordination locked onto its target.”

For the record, IIRC Gokturk-1 has 0.5 m resolution in panchromatic spectra and it captures flying jets very well. It makes you think what would happen if we were to have continuous monitoring with multiple satellites in relevant areas and were able to detect stealth jets in real time.

 

[Zafer]

For the record, IIRC Gokturk-1 has 0.5 m resolution in panchromatic spectra and it captures flying jets very well. It makes you think what would happen if we were to have continuous monitoring with multiple satellites in relevant areas and were able to detect stealth jets in real time.

A satellite constellation like the Starlink is essentially an AESA radar network with global coverage. We need one for ourselves too and we can put visual observation on top of it to zoom into movement with a smaller number of optical satellites.

 

[Samba]

A satellite constellation like the Starlink is essentially an AESA radar network with global coverage. We need one for ourselves too and we can put visual observation on top of it to zoom into movement with a smaller number of optical satellites.

I assume this is why Elon Musk is shouting that stealth is just a gimmick. They may be seeing all f35s and f22s with the use of Starlink

 

[Zafer]

I assume this is why Elon Musk is shouting that stealth is just a gimmick. They may be seeing all f35s and f22s with the use of Starlink

Probably but satellite transmission is probably only half of the trick, I would say possibly ground antenna transmission complements the detection process. So it is absolutely necessary to avoid Starlink service in the regions of interest to us. But this is just my guess.

 

[Yasar_TR]

For the record, IIRC Gokturk-1 has 0.5 m resolution in panchromatic spectra and it captures flying jets very well. It makes you think what would happen if we were to have continuous monitoring with multiple satellites in relevant areas and were able to detect stealth jets in real time.

How are you going to follow planes over cloud cover?
You need large (and I mean humongous) antennae to give you Synthetic Aperture Radar pictures over cloud cover.

Also you need satellites that are at geosynchronous orbit (not geostationary or in line with the equator) to have continuous coverage. That is a satellite some 38K km above earth.
Not 685km above us like Göktürk, that has a sun synchronous orbit and allows the satellite to visit over a 640km wide specific area every 2.5 days.

 

[godel44]

How are you going to follow planes over cloud cover?
You need large (and I mean humongous) antennae to give you Synthetic Aperture Radar pictures over cloud cover.

Also you need satellites that are at geosynchronous orbit (not geostationary or in line with the equator) to have continuous coverage. That is a satellite some 38K km above earth.
Not 685km above us like Göktürk, that has a sun synchronous orbit and allows the satellite to visit over a 640km wide specific area every 2.5 days.

The point about cloud cover is valid but this is a sensor fusion game where you combine optic sensors and SAR, the latter of which is not affected by clouds. For example, you can even now use ESA's Sentinel-1 to get free SAR data if the optical Sentinel-2 suffers from cloud cover. You definitely don't need humongous antennae either. Modern SAR satellites like ICEYE and Capella have 3-5 meter deployable reflectors and still get 0.25–1 m resolution through clouds.

With regards to orbits, you would actually want to stay in low earth orbit and have a constellation for this type of task so that you shorten revisit times to minutes. Starlink has proven this type of density is feasible technically. If you were to go to geosynchronous orbit, you sacrifice a lot of geospatial resolution simply because you are that high up. This is why most observation satellites (except for meteorology) are at low earth orbit.

So, in theory, with a large enough LEO constellation combining SAR and optical (including NIR and other relevant infrared bands) and some efficient computer vision algorithms, you can detect stealth jets. It comes down to cost and engineering effort, but I bet somebody will do it in the end. In Turkey's case the areas you want to monitor are not that large (seas around us and Syria), so it should be quite doable at some time in the future if there is a will.

 

[hugh]

The point about cloud cover is valid but this is a sensor fusion game where you combine optic sensors and SAR, the latter of which is not affected by clouds. For example, you can even now use ESA's Sentinel-1 to get free SAR data if the optical Sentinel-2 suffers from cloud cover. You definitely don't need humongous antennae either. Modern SAR satellites like ICEYE and Capella have 3-5 meter deployable reflectors and still get 0.25–1 m resolution through clouds.

With regards to orbits, you would actually want to stay in low earth orbit and have a constellation for this type of task so that you shorten revisit times to minutes. Starlink has proven this type of density is feasible technically. If you were to go to geosynchronous orbit, you sacrifice a lot of geospatial resolution simply because you are that high up. This is why most observation satellites (except for meteorology) are at low earth orbit.

So, in theory, with a large enough LEO constellation combining SAR and optical (including NIR and other relevant infrared bands) and some efficient computer vision algorithms, you can detect stealth jets. It comes down to cost and engineering effort, but I bet somebody will do it in the end. In Turkey's case the areas you want to monitor are not that large (seas around us and Syria), so it should be quite doable at some time in the future if there is a will.

your answer reads like chatgpt. please use it as much as you desire(hell, i must be reading over 50 prompts daily) but don't paste it directly here. it is so obvious for the initiated. i already blocked a few people here for their incessant abuse(despite several warnings). i've never seen you doing it before. so please don't go that way.

to counter your last point, it does not matter if Turkey is big or as small as Vatican. that's not how LEO works. if you want constant coverage you need a constellation. and a LEO constellation cannot be regional, it has to be global. you can limit the constellation to lower latitudes and save some satellites from venturing the poles but, again, the satellites won't be stationary and will circle the earth.

 

[godel44]

your answer reads like chatgpt. please use it as much as you desire(hell, i must be reading over 50 prompts daily) but don't paste it directly here. it is so obvious for the initiated. i already blocked a few people here for their incessant abuse(despite several warnings). i've never seen you doing it before. so please don't go that way.

to counter your last point, it does not matter if Turkey is big or as small as Vatican. that's not how LEO works. if you want constant coverage you need a constellation. and a LEO constellation cannot be regional, it has to be global. you can limit the constellation to lower latitudes and save some satellites from venturing the poles but, again, the satellites won't be stationary and will circle the earth.

I wasn't using chatgpt mate. I was told in the past I come across as formal but I never was accused of that specifically before.

Regarding your point about LEO: It should have been obvious that I am not talking about LEO satellites staying above one specific region. I was talking about the constellation constantly imaging one specific region. You can design a LEO constellation with inclined orbits so that it passes over your area of interest frequently. That way you always get coverage from at least one satellite in the constellation. So while the individual LEO sat circles the whole Earth, the constellation will always get image from the area of interest. While you dismiss this as "that's not how LEO works," this is common practice in space industry. And yes, Turkey's seas being a smaller area than, say, the whole Pacific Ocean does make Turkey's job easier than America's.