TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Nilgiri]

Believe me in the international arena no permanent friend or foe, the only permanent thing is interests.
We signed for the auxiliary ship's deal when relations were in the worst shape

It can go further in another driver aspect, because there is fairly large trade surplus in India's favour each year....about 6 - 7 billion yearly in last couple years before covid crisis.

This means by economics.... there is inherent price-competitive advantage (currently) that Turkey would enjoy in its products (that it can tap into) w.r.t India compared to countries where India surplus is much smaller or is a deficit.

It would of course need market analysis and promotion and strategy involving all of that. This becomes somewhat more difficult when geopolitics start to get involved like they do in military products....as there is small but key set of doors to open first in such area compared to more general civilian products which have many doors in more open marketplace.

 

[Nilgiri]

Another example is the fleet support vessel (FSV) that includes ToT for the Indian Navy, despite the cancellation and then the backtracking from the Indian side.

This project is ongoing:

Hindustan Shipyard to build 5 naval support vessels with Turkish help

The project, estimated to cost between $1.5 billion and $2 billion, will involve transfer of technology from Turkey's Anadolu Shipyard.

www.hindustantimes.com

 

[crixus]

Turkey has an interesting policy when it comes to cooperation in defence products.
Turkey sees this as business and doesn't act with emotions and hardly any politics.
Examples are selling drones tot to Saudi Arabia and military equipment to the UAE and Bahrain despite the trio's still ongoing wild smear campaign against Turkey alongside Egypt.
Another example is the fleet support vessel (FSV) that includes ToT for the Indian Navy, despite the cancellation and then the backtracking from the Indian side.

I think if India shows genuine interest in such cooperation, Turkey will likely respond positively.

The same is the policy of India too, we will not mess in your internal crap and you will not in ours . Regarding the auxiliary ships, the deal is still on.

India to go ahead with $2.3 billion Turkish shipyard deal

The formal contract was signed days after India issued a strong statement rejecting all references made to Jammu and Kashmir in a joint declaration by Turkey and Pakistan during President Erdogans visit to Islamabad last month. The contract was signed by HSL last month after clearances were...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

We literally have no beef with Turks ever, you can find many people like me in India who admire Attaturk as a great leader and statesman. As you said there is no scope of emotion in international relations only my two cents let India Turkey relation be free from any third country

 

[crixus]

It can go further in another driver aspect, because there is fairly large trade surplus in India's favour each year....about 6 - 7 billion yearly in last couple years before covid crisis.

This means by economics.... there is inherent price-competitive advantage (currently) that Turkey would enjoy in its products (that it can tap into) w.r.t India compared to countries where India surplus is much smaller or is a deficit.

It would of course need market analysis and promotion and strategy involving all of that. This becomes somewhat more difficult when geopolitics start to get involved like they do in military products....as there is small but key set of doors to open first in such area compared to more general civilian products which have many doors in more open marketplace.

Any suggestion what you think should be the starting points or steps to build up the relationship

 

[Nilgiri]

Any suggestion what you think should be the starting points or steps to build up the relationship

Indian Economy just needs to get lot bigger and broader...given its population. There is only so much that can be done without that raw sustenance. Economic heft just does things no amount of words and finesse etc can do (rather that should come after to help it...rather than other way around too much).

The application of this in reality (already) already shows w.r.t India-Turkey trade compared to Turkey trade with rest of subcontinent for example (past the geopolitics driven cart before donkey approach in some of those).

In current world geopolitics cake setting, I think what we have (with Turkey) is more or less fairly OK. To develop relationships more (anywhere, not just Turkey), simply India needs to broaden and bulk itself up lot more. Then things progress far more naturally anyway.

 

[crixus]

Indian Economy just needs to get lot bigger and broader...given its population. There is only so much that can be done without that raw sustenance. Economic heft just does things no amount of words and finesse etc can do (rather that should come after to help it...rather than other way around too much).

The application of this in reality (already) already shows w.r.t India-Turkey trade compared to Turkey trade with rest of subcontinent for example (past the geopolitics driven cart before donkey approach in some of those).

In current world geopolitics cake setting, I think what we have (with Turkey) is more or less fairly OK. To develop relationships more (anywhere, not just Turkey), simply India needs to broaden and bulk itself up lot more. Then things progress far more naturally anyway.

makes sense

 

[Zafer]

Any suggestion what you think should be the starting points or steps to build up the relationship

Space, Turkish Space Agency is looking for cooperation and partnerships.

 

[Huelague]

This cooperation would have possibly if India solve issue with Pakistan.

 

[Zapper]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1400831294460686338

@crixus @Test7 several of these tanks don't fall in the same weight category that IA is looking for...Any MBT over 60 tons is not ideal for the terrains that IA operates in. If that was the case, IA wouldn't bug DRDO to reduce the weight of Arjun MBT

IA will primarily be looking for an MBT under 50 tons with Russia's T-14 Armata fitting the bill at 48 tons, considering the fact that it is also a modern newly developed tank. The second aspect is the cost...an Altay or most other tanks out there including the Arjun cost in excess of $10mn each while a T-90 Bishma is costing IA $3.5mn which is also the reason we're license producing more of em while limiting the order of Arjun Mk-1A.

Given the fact that T-14 will be a family of mechanized vehicles, I believe it has the highest probability to get selected. Again, there is a good chance for IA to scrap the tender and re-issue a whole new one few years down the lane given their flawed and shoddy procurement/selection process

 

[Zapper]

This cooperation would have possibly if India solve issue with Pakistan.

Either country won't budge and we're both nuclear powers...so it's sort of a stalemate. There is lil to no chance for Altay to get selected since IA knows the pak-Turk relation and a potential possibility that PA will be using turk weapons systems

Imagine PA's mechanized columns having aerial support by T-129s while facing IA's Altays...it'd be dumb AF

 

[Zapper]

I thought India was going to improve the Arjun then evolve it to make a new tank?

Arjun's design is that of a heavy MBT in excess of 60 tons and there's only so much weight reduction one can do on it. The particular dept of DRDO which is responsible for development of armoured vehicles CVRDE is not the most efficient arm of DRDO causing delays of next gen MBT technologies.

IA is looking to develop & induct a family of armoured vehicles using the same chassis by the end of this decade

 

[crixus]

This cooperation would have possibly if India solve issue with Pakistan.

Man, we have a policy our bilateral relationship does not depend on any third country. Anyways Pakistan is not a country it's a thought process .

You can deal with a country, not with a thought process. When a country's whole existence is based on hate then its never possible to negotiate or resolve issues . And it will be helpful if you not bring Pakistan when we are talking about Turkey and India .
If you want you can open a new thread

 

[crixus]

@crixus @Test7 several of these tanks don't fall in the same weight category that IA is looking for...Any MBT over 60 tons is not ideal for the terrains that IA operates in. If that was the case, IA wouldn't bug DRDO to reduce the weight of Arjun MBT

IA will primarily be looking for an MBT under 50 tons with Russia's T-14 Armata fitting the bill at 48 tons, considering the fact that it is also a modern newly developed tank. The second aspect is the cost...an Altay or most other tanks out there including the Arjun cost in excess of $10mn each while a T-90 Bishma is costing IA $3.5mn which is also the reason we're license producing more of em while limiting the order of Arjun Mk-1A.

Given the fact that T-14 will be a family of mechanized vehicles, I believe it has the highest probability to get selected. Again, there is a good chance for IA to scrap the tender and re-issue a whole new one few years down the lane given their flawed and shoddy procurement/selection process

I think it will be more of a consultancy in designing and sensor fusion. I am not sure the current product will fulfill the detailed requirements

 

[Nilgiri]

@crixus @Test7 several of these tanks don't fall in the same weight category that IA is looking for...Any MBT over 60 tons is not ideal for the terrains that IA operates in. If that was the case, IA wouldn't bug DRDO to reduce the weight of Arjun MBT

IA will primarily be looking for an MBT under 50 tons with Russia's T-14 Armata fitting the bill at 48 tons, considering the fact that it is also a modern newly developed tank. The second aspect is the cost...an Altay or most other tanks out there including the Arjun cost in excess of $10mn each while a T-90 Bishma is costing IA $3.5mn which is also the reason we're license producing more of em while limiting the order of Arjun Mk-1A.

Given the fact that T-14 will be a family of mechanized vehicles, I believe it has the highest probability to get selected. Again, there is a good chance for IA to scrap the tender and re-issue a whole new one few years down the lane given their flawed and shoddy procurement/selection process

It just RFI stage, so it goes to OEM (Otokar in this case w.r.t Turkey) rather than specific product (Altay) they have made (since brochures on that already out there). Though specific products (i.e production chain) do show proven capability so definitely high influence in making the RFP later and its down-selection qualifying process....that one can definitely make educated guess on now.

For RFI, they likely will provide info on what they could potentially do/collaborate both with Indian MIC and/or by themselves (both tech and process)....or give non-response if NOTA.

From that it goes to RFP stage where Indian govt actually lists the requirements concretely (based on analysis of the RFI responses) for serious contender proposals to file for.

The T-72s still have lifecycles and improvements left to do on them...so we see our babus (and you and others already know my view on them and tenure/impact of their career lengths) in the typical RFI re-issue buffer stage now.

Maybe more seriousness this time than 2017 since some more years elapsed and retire+replacement horizon drew nearer. But like you say, maybe not enough pressure accumulated from that just yet, so who knows....maybe another RFI later. Let us see.

 

[crixus]

Either country won't budge and we're both nuclear powers...so it's sort of a stalemate. There is lil to no chance for Altay to get selected since IA knows the pak-Turk relation and a potential possibility that PA will be using turk weapons systems

Imagine PA's mechanized columns having aerial support by T-129s while facing IA's Altays...it'd be dumb AF

Think in this way what Pakistan will think before using the Turkish choppers against India if India has good defence cooperation with Turks .

 

[Zapper]

It just RFI stage, so it goes to OEM (Otokar in this case w.r.t Turkey) rather than specific product (Altay) they have made (since brochures on that already out there). Though specific products (i.e production chain) do show proven capability so definitely high influence in making the RFP later and its down-selection qualifying process....that one can definitely make educated guess on now.

For RFI, they likely will provide info on what they could potentially do/collaborate both with Indian MIC and/or by themselves (both tech and process)....or give non-response if NOTA.

From that it goes to RFP stage where Indian govt actually lists the requirements concretely (based on analysis of the RFI responses) for serious contender proposals to file for.

The T-72s still have lifecycles and improvements left to do on them...so we see our babus (and you and others already know my view on them and tenure/impact of their career lengths) in the typical RFI re-issue buffer stage now.

Maybe more seriousness this time than 2017 since some more years elapsed and retire+replacement horizon drew nearer. But like you say, maybe not enough pressure accumulated from that just yet, so who knows....maybe another RFI later. Let us see.

It looks like the RFI is pretty much sent to every MBT OEM out there irrespective of the country. Following is mentioned in the RFI which no tank in production meets as of now except the T-14 to some extent and maybe Israel's recently revealed concept

"The main armament of the FRCV will be able to destroy different types of land targets including MBTs (Main Battle Tanks), armored vehicles, unmanned aerial vehicles, and helicopters. The new vehicle must be fitted with a remotely operated weapon station and anti-aircraft combat equipment to counter UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles).

Standard onboard equipment of the FRCV must include new modern technologies as artificial intelligence, stealth features and can operate in a network-centric and electronic warfare environment."

Also, 60T+ tanks cannot effectively navigate the Indo-Pak terrain and they'd be limited to the Thar desert which Arjuns are destined to handle. Not to mention, none of the Indian forces will never procure an offensive platform from the Turks given their relationship with pak.

also, DRDO is developing a NGMBT. If they bring some private firm like L&T onboard which already has some experience building the K9s, completely eliminating HVF-Avadi or the likes while the entire supply chain/manufacturing is handled by L&T...we don't really need to rely on a foreign firm provided IA/MoD don't keep altering their specs

 

[Raptor]

This RFI would most likely be scrapped due to insufficient ToT offerings and would be handed over to DRDO.
DRDO is already testing on GNMBT prototypes,if army doesn't change requirements often then it could be delivered by 2030 or else no

 

[azaher77]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1401468081604530176

 

[Turko]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1401468081604530176

Roketsan has started mass production of armour packages. So we could assume: there won't be Leo modification with ALTAY turret.

 

[Combat-Master]

Roketsan has started mass production of armour packages. So we could assume: there won't be Leo modification with ALTAY turret.

Hope this is not the case. Leopard 2A4 even with armour package is still not up to standards of current threats posed by ATGM and Drone-borne bomblets. Altay Turret with AKKOR is the only viable solution to having a sleek looking platform that can handle numerous threats. Question is however, can Leopard II platform handle a Altay Turret ?