TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

Heartbang

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but no posts when it comes to our deliveries? That's just really, really weird.
There are evil mf'ers on both sides of the world who track and count this sort of stuff, and update their plans accordingly.
I think its smart, and this kind of obfuscation should be done more.
 

boredaf

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There are evil mf'ers on both sides of the world who track and count this sort of stuff, and update their plans accordingly.
I think its smart, and this kind of obfuscation should be done more.
What obfuscation? Just because there has been no news doesn't mean there is a clever ruse to hide things. Let's not pretend like our companies and government haven't been advertising every little thing for years now, including any delivery/acquisition, big and small. This also includes when Tusaş made T-70 and T-129 deliveries to our military. Let's not start pretending like they have suddenly decided that these deliveries were super duper important and should be kept secret lol

And do you honestly thing people who track these sorts of deliveries really look at tweets?
 

Heartbang

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Let's not pretend like our companies and government haven't been advertising every little thing for years now, including any delivery/acquisition, big and small.
You got a point. I was advocating for them to NOT advertise those.
But we have elections to "win" and such. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And do you honestly thing people who track these sorts of deliveries really look at tweets?
They use every single source they can, including tweets. OSINT is a force to be reckoned with.
 
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Osman

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Do you really think that tsk and defence companies are making every single delivery public? Then you can find easily our inventory by googling. How many bora and kaplan missiles how many hgk/lgk and kgk do we have for example?
 

boredaf

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Do you really think that tsk and defence companies are making every single delivery public? Then you can find easily our inventory by googling. How many bora and kaplan missiles how many hgk/lgk and kgk do we have for example?
Talk about false equivalence, missiles are kept in storage, helicopters are not and their numbers are never shared. There have been numerous posts about all kinds of deliveries, including helicopters with numbers mentioned. On top of that, we are not putting these helicopters in some secret base that is hidden from everyone. Not mentioning any deliveries doesn't help in keeping them away from prying eyes, satellites exist you know?

Why is it so hard to accept that TAI hasn't been delivering T-70 in over a year and T-129 in almost a year? What proof is there that they've actually been making these deliveries in secret, while beforehand they were merrily announcing them?
 

BalkanTurk90

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Do you really think that tsk and defence companies are making every single delivery public? Then you can find easily our inventory by googling. How many bora and kaplan missiles how many hgk/lgk and kgk do we have for example?
Some stratejik systems can be secret like MRBM numbers but armored vihacles and tanks or small anri tank missiles are open to public .
 

Sanchez

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T129, T625 and T70 all have plenty of major foreign subcomponents in them. None of these deliveries can ever be secret.
Furthermore, MSB does weekly press conferences talking about recent events, exercises and new stuff added to inventory. That's how most of defence media literally learns about deliveries. They usually don't give any numbers and this is a good thing, but all systems are mentioned unless it's actually secretive. Some recent ones:
From last week:
"The locally-powered Vuran vehicle, Armored Anti-Tank Vehicle-UMTAS CİRİT / Tracked (ZTA-UC/P) weapon system, Inspection and acceptance activities of the tactical UAV system were completed."

January 18:
"The inspection and acceptance activities of various quantities of "Medium Range Modern Anti-Tank Missile-OMTAS" and "Long Range Acoustic System" were completed by the Turkish Land Forces Command."

January 4:
"The inspection and acceptance activities of various quantities of "Mini Smart Ammunition", "Electronic Attack System MİLKAR" and "Hisar-O Missile" were completed by the Turkish Land Forces Command.

November 30:
"Six Armored Wheeled Vehicle Rescuers, which were planned to be procured under the Tactical Wheeled Vehicles Project, were taken into the inventory of the Turkish Land Forces on November 27."

November 23:
"2 Basic Training Helicopters[AW109T], 4 Mobile Mortar Detection Radars, 8 Armored Anti-Tank Vehicles, 17 Armored Fighting Vehicles with NEFER Turrets, 1 Vehicle Mines / Handmade Explosive Detector were taken into the inventory of the Land Forces Command."
 

Merzifonlu

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Why were Gökbey deliveries delayed? Did Gendarmerie General Command dislike the first 3 Gökbey helicopters delivered and asked for modifications?
 

Zafer

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While there is so much intricacies around defense sector it is only natural to be selective in what you make known. Every move you make is closely watched by enemies and also friends. Impatiently.
 
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Saithan

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It's important to announce deliveries and such. If we have been reduced to keeping these things secret then that means we've regressed.

If I announce to the world that we delivered 200 Cakir and Atmaca, who's to say that number isn't 20000 of each. But if I can't event announce delivery because I've grown paranoid. Then people should be worried of the government spending TSK money elsewhere.

If you're worried about revealing such things, then you should at least ensure and do hardcore PR spending 1 billion USD on the progress on all publicly available projects.

Meaning showing and performing cirkus act of flying Gökbey around 700h is nothing. we want to see those number double up every year.

Just like how Baykar was smart enough to promote flighthours of TB2. Trust is everything, if you can't trust your government and officials to be upfront with their own people then there is no future.
 

uçuyorum

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It's important to announce deliveries and such. If we have been reduced to keeping these things secret then that means we've regressed.

If I announce to the world that we delivered 200 Cakir and Atmaca, who's to say that number isn't 20000 of each. But if I can't event announce delivery because I've grown paranoid. Then people should be worried of the government spending TSK money elsewhere.

If you're worried about revealing such things, then you should at least ensure and do hardcore PR spending 1 billion USD on the progress on all publicly available projects.

Meaning showing and performing cirkus act of flying Gökbey around 700h is nothing. we want to see those number double up every year.

Just like how Baykar was smart enough to promote flighthours of TB2. Trust is everything, if you can't trust your government and officials to be upfront with their own people then there is no future.
If you were to produce that many just the raw materials you order and the scale of what you do would be easy to track for any intelligence organization
 

Sanchez

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While there is so much intricacies around defense sector it is only natural to be selective in what you make known. Every move you make is closely watched by enemies and also friends. Impatiently.
Yes, but a light general duty helicopter that will be given to a semi civilian agency is not such a system.
 

Saithan

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If you were to produce that many just the raw materials you order and the scale of what you do would be easy to track for any intelligence organization
Those were just example. But I hope you got my point.
 

Zafer

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Yes, but a light general duty helicopter that will be given to a semi civilian agency is not such a system.
Not when this helicopter can be remade to operate on a carrier ship. There maybe issues about how many engines you can procure in a given period of time and the maker may want to keep those engines for some other customer while the domestic replacement engine is being prepared for the task. I would say we need to have faith in our industrialists and stop making a big deal out of nothing.
 

Sanchez

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Not when this helicopter can be remade to operate on a carrier ship.
Is this navalized helicopter is in the same room with us? We are not talking about future T625Ns for navy, we are talking about civilian T625s that were produced at least 2 years ago and are yet to be delivered to gendarme. We first saw J-6001 in 2022. A 2 year delay for a serial production aircraft is not nothing. This aircraft was to be delivered to gendarme in Q1 2023, which was already a delayed date, because first 3 T625s were to be delivered to gendarme in 2022. Going even further, originally first delivery was to be made in Q4 2021, which was later updated to 1 T625 by H2 2022, which was later revised to first delivery in Q1 2023, then revised to Q4 2023, and we currently do not have any dates.

"The first batch of 3 helicopters is expected to be delivered in 2022. The delivery date for the T625 GÖKBEY was previously planned as October 29, 2021, which was later updated as 'mid-2022'."

"Kotil announced that they will deliver the first GÖKBEY helicopter to the Gendarmerie General Command towards the end of 2022."

I get that you like to be optimistic and usually take the words from appointees as gospel, but there's a fine line between being optimistic and too optimistic for his
own good. I guess I'll be the bad guy again, but that's fine. There are some big delays in this program for the last 3 years and we don't know the cause of those delays because like rest of the media, most of the defence media is also just a bunch of propagandists that are too scared of asking questions for the fear of being put out of the ecosystem and losing their access. Those that do question things are shunned and forced to stay away, being called traitors even for asking questions. So all we get is continuous delays and revised delivery dates with no accountability whatsoever while we are hurting heavily for utility helicopters and our pilots still use UH-1s.
 

Zafer

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Is this navalized helicopter is in the same room with us? We are not talking about future T625Ns for navy, we are talking about civilian T625s that were produced at least 2 years ago and are yet to be delivered to gendarme. We first saw J-6001 in 2022. A 2 year delay for a serial production aircraft is not nothing. This aircraft was to be delivered to gendarme in Q1 2023, which was already a delayed date, because first 3 T625s were to be delivered to gendarme in 2022. Going even further, originally first delivery was to be made in Q4 2021, which was later updated to 1 T625 by H2 2022, which was later revised to first delivery in Q1 2023, then revised to Q4 2023, and we currently do not have any dates.

"The first batch of 3 helicopters is expected to be delivered in 2022. The delivery date for the T625 GÖKBEY was previously planned as October 29, 2021, which was later updated as 'mid-2022'."

"Kotil announced that they will deliver the first GÖKBEY helicopter to the Gendarmerie General Command towards the end of 2022."

I get that you like to be optimistic and usually take the words from appointees as gospel, but there's a fine line between being optimistic and too optimistic for his
own good. I guess I'll be the bad guy again, but that's fine. There are some big delays in this program for the last 3 years and we don't know the cause of those delays because like rest of the media, most of the defence media is also just a bunch of propagandists that are too scared of asking questions for the fear of being put out of the ecosystem and losing their access. Those that do question things are shunned and forced to stay away, being called traitors even for asking questions. So all we get is continuous delays and revised delivery dates with no accountability whatsoever while we are hurting heavily for utility helicopters and our pilots still use UH-1s.
You don't get it. It is perfectly OK to be behind schedule when you don't have all the ecosystem elements locally made for many years. Mind you we are at only 80% local made at this point. The remaining 20% can drag you quite a bit. You need to navigate your way around obstacles and make the most of what you have at the moment you do your planning.

Talking about Gökbey I am talking about its engines, if you will need to give engines to the marines you need to take it from the gendarmerie which is the easiest of all the forces. This is considering the engines may be scarce.
 

Sanchez

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You don't get it. It is perfectly OK to be behind schedule when you don't have all the ecosystem elements locally made for many years. Mind you we are at only 80% local made at this point. The remaining 20% can drag you quite a bit. You need to navigate your way around obstacles and make the most of what you have at the moment you do your planning.

Talking about Gökbey I am talking about its engines, if you will need to give engines to the marines you need to take it from the gendarmerie which is the easiest of all the forces. This is considering the engines may be scarce.
We will never be 100% and we don't need to be 100%. Literally no weapon system or platform we have are 100% local and they will never be. We still have plenty of projects that do have foreign components and are in fact in the inventory. All TB2s have foreign components, even more than Anka itself, and they sell like hot cakes. All MAMs as well, they also sell like hot cakes and are built continuously. We have 300+ STAs in service and they all have foreign powerpacks. Sometimes it's not embargoes, sometimes it's just bad to horrible project planning and missed delivery dates.

If you want to believe that the same TAI that can't deliver a light utility helicopter to gendarmerie in 3 years with a set contract is working behind everyone's back to navalize the same helicopter with the engines for gendarmerie ones, without a contract for DzKK, be my guest.
 

Sanchez

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Army already had plenty of drone projects for future as well, and also with drone-helicopter teaming. But yes, they probably mostly think that the time of scout helicopter is over when there's a proliferation of SHORADs over the world. Remember droves of Russian Mis being shot down while flying low in the first months of the war. Lessons to be learned.
Quoting this from US' cancellation of FARA.

Even with all this however, having 6 times the attack helicopters unlike before and them being vulnerable, KKK looks to be still very much interested in T629 according to everything that has been said so far.
With KKK's interest in T629 being very high, is this the best course of action for future army aviation. T629 is not a big helicopter, it will still be hard to develop mission profiles for it as it will have a lower MTOW compared to purebred attack helicopters. And T929 is on the backburner.


US is reshuffling their helicopter programs but we can't?
Reshuffle to what? Gendarmerie, army and navy all need utility helicopters. Gendarmerie already placed an order because they have the oldest fleet of utility helicopters, and gendarmerie's number of roles and missions increase every passing day in and outside the country. T70 deliveries doesn't look like will continue after 40+ units. JnGK alone was supposed to get 30 T70s to replace its 30 year old S70s, now it's not clear if there will be a total delivery of more than 40 units with the latest delays. How do we supply them with new helicopters?

T625 in its current state is a semi civilian helicopter with some bare bones avionics and self defense suite for military roles. It'd be a pretty good fit for low threat gendarmerie environments at the moment, saving the S70s and new T70s for missions in hotter areas. Which is exactly why JnGK was its first customer. So that it could mature while being in use with JnGK.
 

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