TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[Combat-Master]

Am I seeing right? The lines and geometry of the design is analogous to a stealth geometry. I wonder if they succeeded to bring down the RCS value of the helicopter as well! Too many flat surfaces!

It seems that way, I'm sure they can get the RCS signature lower - with electric propulsion, they should do some work to reduce auditory signature of the aircraft too.

 

[Nilgiri]

Will there be more conventional version which is just basically a T-129 with the new TEI-1400 engine instead of the lhtec one?

 

[Combat-Master]

Tolga Ozbek gives his analysis on T629 electric version

 

[Yasar_TR]

Will there be more conventional version which is just basically a T-129 with the new TEI-1400 engine instead of the lhtec one?

That is the plan. But the ts1400 engined version will take longer. This engine has to pass qualification tests first with T625 Gokbey first. Then they will start testing it on t629.

 

[Test7]

Two more helicopters'll be delivered to the General Directorate of Security in March. A total of 9 T129 will have been delivered by '22.

Emniyet Genel Müdürlüğünün ilk Atak helikopteri teslim edildi

Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii Genel Müdürü Temel Kotil, mart ayı içinde 2 Atak helikopterini daha Emniyet Genel Müdürlüğüne teslim edeceklerini bildirdi. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Combat-Master]

Some closeups of T629-Elektirik

 

[Test7]

 

[dustdevil]

Am I seeing right? The lines and geometry of the design is analogous to a stealth geometry. I wonder if they succeeded to bring down the RCS value of the helicopter as well! Too many flat surfaces!

Way too many rivets, gaps, no surface finish and looks like a simple mockup ( maybe some kind of wrapping real helicopter frame and parts with sheet metal). Landing gear, gun and rotating parts are exposed.

Of course, I want to be wrong. At least, maybe they want both this and manned T-629 to be stealth but they lack low RCS design know-how, just for mockup phase..

 

[Cabatli_TR]

 

[Cabatli_TR]

 

[astragan]

In his YouTube stream, Mr Tolga Özbek said that T-629 will be a hybrid and NOT a fully electric helicopter. Of course, in the future, as technology evolves, it would be possible to turn a hybrid model into a completely electric model. He has also stated that (logically) this is a Mockup, not the final design. They are probably trying to fit in different systems and create various layouts to ensure a more efficient design. Hence, the rivets and panel gaps and the lack of any proper surface coating. TUSAŞ is not an amateur company. It is one of the largest aviation and defence industry corporations, not just in Turkey but around the globe.

In my opinion, the most important approach we should take towards this model is that the launch of such products shows that we now fully OWN the platform and that having such a platform allows us to extensively customize it. Today, we can see an autonomous and electric T-629. Tomorrow, we could see a dual rotor version or even a quad-rotor design based on this platform. Germans have adopted this approach with everything they’ve done. Volkswagen develops a single platform called MQB and utilizes that platform to manufacture numerous models. Having such a flexible platform helps ensure production of a cheap (because of mass production) yet reliable and tested line-up.

 

[dustdevil]

In his YouTube stream, Mr Tolga Özbek said that T-629 will be a hybrid and NOT a fully electric helicopter. Of course, in the future, as technology evolves, it would be possible to turn a hybrid model into a completely electric model. He has also stated that (logically) this is a Mockup, not the final design. They are probably trying to fit in different systems and create various layouts to ensure a more efficient design. Hence, the rivets and panel gaps and the lack of any proper surface coating. TUSAŞ is not an amateur company. It is one of the largest aviation and defence industry corporations, not just in Turkey but around the globe.

In my opinion, the most important approach we should take towards this model is that the launch of such products shows that we now fully OWN the platform and that having such a platform allows us to extensively customize it. Today, we can see an autonomous and electric T-629. Tomorrow, we could see a dual rotor version or even a quad-rotor design based on this platform. Germans have adopted this approach with everything they’ve done. Volkswagen develops a single platform called MQB and utilizes that platform to manufacture numerous models. Having such a flexible platform helps ensure production of a cheap (because of mass production) yet reliable and tested line-up.

He also did not like the mockup. TUSAŞ should be more careful with mockups, it's easy to impress ordinary people or journalists, but not the professionals.

Because of "composites" experience TUSAŞ can easily build a mockup like this:

 

[Zafer]

In his YouTube stream, Mr Tolga Özbek said that T-629 will be a hybrid and NOT a fully electric helicopter. Of course, in the future, as technology evolves, it would be possible to turn a hybrid model into a completely electric model. He has also stated that (logically) this is a Mockup, not the final design. They are probably trying to fit in different systems and create various layouts to ensure a more efficient design. Hence, the rivets and panel gaps and the lack of any proper surface coating. TUSAŞ is not an amateur company. It is one of the largest aviation and defence industry corporations, not just in Turkey but around the globe.

In my opinion, the most important approach we should take towards this model is that the launch of such products shows that we now fully OWN the platform and that having such a platform allows us to extensively customize it. Today, we can see an autonomous and electric T-629. Tomorrow, we could see a dual rotor version or even a quad-rotor design based on this platform. Germans have adopted this approach with everything they’ve done. Volkswagen develops a single platform called MQB and utilizes that platform to manufacture numerous models. Having such a flexible platform helps ensure production of a cheap (because of mass production) yet reliable and tested line-up.

It is even better if it is a hybrid, I would be surprized if it weren't as there is no aviation electric motor nearly as big as to fly this bird readily available. Although you can stack several motors to the same effect. A hybrid is harder to make too. Kudos to TAI for that.

A quad or bi-copter would be a totally different animal.

 

[astragan]

He also did not like the mockup. TUSAŞ should be more careful with mockups, it's easy to impress ordinary people or journalists, but not the professionals.

Because of composite experience TUSAŞ can easily build a mockup like this:

Although that Bell 360 Invictus is not exactly at a mockup stage, I fully agree that it was possible to build a better mockup. However, I think that this is still in R&D stage and they might not want to allocate precious resources to a useless mockup. The rivets allow a more hands-on approach at the workshop level. It seems like this is just a prototype model used to try on different modules, as we can see with the cameras and sensors equipped all around the helicopter.

I fully support building cheaper yet useful mockups that could be further used at workshops to develop the model rather than manufacturing “showcase” mockups that would only serve as advertisement for the vehicle.

 

[Huelague]

A smooth design with very aerodynamic form. Great.

 

[Glass🚬]

Maybe the land forces will use the T-629 in the future as some sort of loyal wingman of the ATAK 2. Interesting new doctrines being developed there.

 

[Sinan]

When I talked about an electric plane six years ago a university professor was like "no way a plane can fly on electric". And now the top Turkish company makes an electric full size helicopter, what an exponential change.

And that professor was right and still right.

Just wait until you see the specs of that heli.

 

[what]

What are the benefits of a hybrid helicopter? The electric engine and batteries probably wont even have enough energy to keep it up or maybe just for a very brief time.

 

[astragan]

What are the benefits of a hybrid helicopter? The electric engine and batteries probably wont even have enough energy to keep it up or maybe just for a very brief time.

The electric engine and its batteries will probably just take some of the load of the main engine so that the main engine can use that extra power for better radars or sat-com systems. So it won’t take over all the duties of the main engine. Use of a hybrid system might also improve the range and operation times of the helicopter by a large margin. T129 Atak can only fly for a maximum of 3 hours and has a range of 561km. If they can extend that flight duration by even a single hour, it could save lots of lives on the battlefield and change the course of a possible war.

Maybe the land forces will use the T-629 in the future as some sort of loyal wingman of the ATAK 2. Interesting new doctrines being developed there.

I fully agree with that possibility. Turkish Army is trying to create a combined manned/unmanned force that works together. A single or a team of ATAKs could be escorted by multiple T-629 helicopters and the weapon systems officers on the manned aircraft could make use of all the weaponry on the escort drones. Or perhaps there could be fully unmanned missions where a TB2 or Anka could designate a target by laser and T-629 could bring the required firepower.

 

[Nilgiri]

Use of a hybrid system might also improve the range and operation times of the helicopter by a large margin. T129 Atak can only fly for a maximum of 3 hours and has a range of 561km. If they can extend that flight duration by even a single hour

Well Energy density of jet fuel is far higher than the best batteries available, so I doubt it (for every kg or L on the platform).

Li-ion (at best) is roughly 0.9 MJ/kg or 2.43 MJ/L

Kerosene is roughly 43 MJ/kg or 35 MJ/L

Employing total efficiencies of .75 and .3 respectively, jet fuel is at worst about 6 times as energy dense and "available" in delivery to propulsion.

So for every kg or Liter that jet fuel is replaced with li-ion (and not factoring in the extra weight of a hybrid motor system to use li-ion alongside), the range and endurance of platform will drop.

The advantages lie elsewhere with going hybrid....like say performing in more silent, stealthy + deployed capacity w.r.t a sensor load + data link w.r.t the head/control unit or general C4I network.

Thus the most interesting thing for me will be this lateral integration of this system with a more conventional manned system and the field and tactical doctrines developed for harnessing this.

The advantages developed in multi-system sensor arraying and processing (as someone has mentioned already with wingman drone concept etc, and we are seeing underwater equivalents with UUV really proliferate now too) will be a defining feature of this decade in defence development.