TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[Zafer]

Radial flow fans will not give the fine tuned compression ratios you want while axial flow fans will.

 

[Aqerdf]

This was interesting for me, so wanted to share here.

Mr. Akşit said that TS1400's continuous power is 1570 shp multiple times. And interestingly, since last 2-3 months, he mentioned 1600+ shp, but that 1600 shp figure is for continuous power or is it for emergency power, couldn't figure myself.

 

[I_Love_F16]

This was interesting for me, so wanted to share here.

Mr. Akşit said that TS1400's continuous power is 1570 shp multiple times. And interestingly, since last 2-3 months, he mentioned 1600+ shp, but that 1600 shp figure is for continuous power or is it for emergency power, couldn't figure myself.

https://www.tei.com.tr/uploads/docs/1599491452_ts1400turboshaftengine.pdf?1693078442

 

[Strong AI]

#ATAKII

April

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1784912931383074861

 

[Huelague]

#ATAKII

April

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1784912931383074861

Ugly as hell!

 

[Cenkcnk]

was shown in a hurry (possible election effect) and no one heard anything ever since.

 

[boredaf]

#ATAKII

April

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1784912931383074861

Unbelievable. This was one of the worst cock ups from TAI and they are sharing a video of it? Just let people forget about it until you are truly ready to show it again ffs.

 

[No Name]

Does Turkey even need a heavy-attack helicopter?

 

[Huelague]

Does Turkey even need a heavy-attack helicopter?

Yes.

 

[No Name]

Yes.

Doesn't the T129 ATAK cover all of Turkey's needs?

TAI already has too much on its plate without including a helicopter into the mix.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

Doesn't the T129 ATAK cover all of Turkey's needs?

TAI already has too much on its plate without including a helicopter into the mix.

T-129 is fine but it lacks the firepower and protection of a heavy attack helicopter. T-929s would play a key role in amphibious assaults as they can carry a lot more missiles. Think of it this way. The T-129 is good for quick anti-terror strikes in the mountains. Meanwhile, the T-929 is more suitable for peer warfare; Launching cruise missiles, keeping the coast safe during landings, targeting any remaining strongholds with precision after the primary air campaign is complete. Ideally you want something that is PACKED with an assortment of different weapons for this role.

I still think that we should accelerate work on our unmanned helicopter concepts. Because as useful as helicopters are, they are deathtraps.

 

[Anmdt]

Unbelievable. This was one of the worst cock ups from TAI and they are sharing a video of it? Just let people forget about it until you are truly ready to show it again ffs.

Celebrating birthday of a prematurely born-dead project.

 

[Zafer]

T-929 is a technology demonstrator developed in a short timeframe. TAI didn't go through a lot of trouble making one. But the data learned from making it is invaluable. The project only lacks an engine and once an engine is available it can go to production quickly. I think when TEI or TR-Motor have an empty schedule to accommodate a TS3000 project they can go for one and they can start a TP3000 project along with it as they are very similar. Totally worthwhile doing it.

 

[Pinco Pallino]

The project only lacks an engine and once an engine is available it can go to production quickly.

Going into production "quickly" when an engine is available means the development has already been completed, the design has been frozen (which can't be done without an engine), the production line has been established and the supply chain has been successfully set up.

From what I'm reading on these forum pages, the ATAK 2 project development at this stage is clearly years away from completion, and significanlty further away from production.

 

[Zafer]

Going into production "quickly" when an engine is available means the development has already been completed, the design has been frozen (which can't be done without an engine), the production line has been established and the supply chain has been successfully set up.

From what I'm reading on these forum pages, the ATAK 2 project development at this stage is clearly years away from completion, and significanlty further away from production.

How quickly do you want it.

 

[Pinco Pallino]

I don't know. My opinion doesn't matter in any case.

The correct question should be "how quickly do the Turkish Armed Forces want it?". And I know that currently there really isn't a certain answer.

 

[Anmdt]

T-929 is a technology demonstrator developed in a short timeframe. TAI didn't go through a lot of trouble making one. But the data learned from making it is invaluable. The project only lacks an engine and once an engine is available it can go to production quickly. I think when TEI or TR-Motor have an empty schedule to accommodate a TS3000 project they can go for one and they can start a TP3000 project along with it as they are very similar. Totally worthwhile doing it.

Well no, actually Navy demands it, a platform sharing the same drive train with the Multi Role helicopter platform. And TAI doesn't seem to spare enough resources for Navy-related programmes (like they did with Rotor UAV - G- IHA and so on). Can't blame them either, they have a lot to do in a short time span with limited resources. But been waiting G-IHA for more than a decade already and haven't seen much.

 

[Zafer]

Well no, actually Navy demands it, a platform sharing the same drive train with the Multi Role helicopter platform. And TAI doesn't seem to spare enough resources for Navy-related programmes (like they did with Rotor UAV - G- IHA and so on). Can't blame them either, they have a lot to do in a short time span with limited resources. But been waiting G-IHA for more than a decade already and haven't seen much.

RİHA was the name AFAIK, Vestel was tasked with it. If Baykar's Kalkan VTOL UAV is up to the task then the problem is already solved. I believe Baykar will make larger versions of Kalkan as more powerful motors and engines become available.

 

[YeşilVatan]

T-129 is fine but it lacks the firepower and protection of a heavy attack helicopter. T-929s would play a key role in amphibious assaults as they can carry a lot more missiles. Think of it this way. The T-129 is good for quick anti-terror strikes in the mountains. Meanwhile, the T-929 is more suitable for peer warfare; Launching cruise missiles, keeping the coast safe during landings, targeting any remaining strongholds with precision after the primary air campaign is complete. Ideally you want something that is PACKED with an assortment of different weapons for this role.

I still think that we should accelerate work on our unmanned helicopter concepts. Because as useful as helicopters are, they are deathtraps.

I thought about how much an unmanned helicopter can add value by mission type, excluding small drones (FPVs and such).

1. Attack helicopter missions as they are in 2024 would be way complicated because of the technical limitations (lag) and required computational power for targeting (automation). With the advances in AI this might be mitigated and a nimble, mostly anti-infantry car sized UAV can be produced. I don't see a lumbering 10 ton behemoth unmanned helicopter having any success against even the militias, if we consider the proliferation of MANPADS. This is mostly because of the cost factor.
2. Relay duty is basically pointless. Normally a fixed wing UAV that's flying outside the range of MANPADS and even short range AA will be able to do the job. And it would be much more effective because of its longer flight hours. Maybe in some instances where EW is a factor, there might be a benefit to having a relay equipment closer but I doubt it.
3. Indirect fire support is a weird one, because essentially you can achieve much with network centric warfare. The operators can bring much shorter range missiles near the target. This would in theory serve to concentrate more firepower against enemy targets because shorter range weapons would come into play. Unmanned helicopters can "fly under the radar" of capable enemy air defense and fire missiles from a much closer distance. But then you need to avoid short range AA. Especially considering the cost of payload, is it worth it? I don't think so.
4. Recon is somewhat pointless, because of the limited flight time and susceptibility to MANPADS. Whatever reconnaisance you get from an unmanned helicopter, you would get a better one from fixed-wing UAVs and FPV drones.
5. Supply delivery is the type of mission unmanned helicopters will excel at. It would greatly contribute to the streamlining of logistics and maybe even medevac.
6. Decoy. I think this is one underappreciated and unexpected role unmanned helicopters will have. Baciscally, the enemy will have to decide; try to destroy the decoy, expending munitions and reveal AA positions, or just let it go and hope it was a dud. Creating deoys out of decomissioned UAV parts, especially worn-out engines would also be a very economical use of old equipment.

And the catch is, nearly all of those instances are circumstantial.

All in all, I think 3 types of rotary-wing UAVs will appear in the next 10-15 years.

1. Hunter-killers: Armed primarily with an automatic grenade launcher, or a small number of anti-armor missiles, these small unmanned helicopters would utilize swarm tactics and automation. They will be used in tandem with relay UAVs. The main sticking point for hunter-killer drones would be manpower conservation for advanced militaries. When operating in an environment of complete air domination and very little AA, they would dominate non-urban environments. Plus, easily mass produced. This is the kind of hardware that will completely phase out militias in a rural environment. TB2 was the start, this will be the end. A big bonus for these kind of drones would be aerial retrievability, i.e. deploy and recollect from another flying vehicle.
2. Logistics UAVs: Simple unmanned helicopters utilized for transportation of people and things. Greatly enhance logistics, used to transport personnel with improvements in the future. The most important of the three IMO.
3. Decoy/kamikaze: Various rotary-wing drones built from repurposed parts of decomissioned military vehicles. May be strapped with explosives depending on the strength of the engine. Use them for probing, aid with SEAD/DEAD etc. A modular EW resistant data transfer system would be required for this to be streamlined. Also needs to be used together with other sensor systems because you can't put expensive stuff on those.

Other roles will be fulfilled with fixed wing UAVs.

This is my amateur opinion though.

 

[Anmdt]

RİHA was the name AFAIK, Vestel was tasked with it. If Baykar's Kalkan VTOL UAV is up to the task then the problem is already solved. I believe Baykar will make larger versions of Kalkan as more powerful motors and engines become available.

"G-IHA" is not merely R-IHA and Vestel was tasked with catapult launched UAV not R-IHA.

Kalkan, BAHA whatever in such shape and in such manner of "VTOL" is not navy compliant they won't be able to land or take off even at the slightest wind and gust at sea. Best use is when the weather is calm and to show-off at exercises. Many more has done it before Baykar and none has been mentioned this much.