TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[Yasar_TR]

I have a problem with the tail rotor,it looks weak and fragile.
Why dont they use a Fenestron(fantail)?
@Cabatli_53 @Test7 @Spook @TheInsider @Yasar @Anmdt and others.

It all depends on what you expect from your design, what your priorities are.
If you look at the main disadvantages of a fenestron:

• Greater weight, therefore greater power requirement and more air resistance brought by the enclosed structure
• Higher cost to construct.
• More power is needed during the hover phase

To be less noisy during flight, against above disadvantages; I wouldn’t like to trade.
About the safety to people around fenestron ; I wouldn’t care in a military killing machine.
These birds are not going to be operating too much at altitude with all the man pads and short range AD systems around nowadays. They will be behind geographic barriers hiding, even whilst flying towards a target, they will be at low level away from enemy radars.

 

[Zafer]

An open rotor is more efficient.
The model of the helicopter may be faulty and not properly dimensioned.

 

[Spook]

Thanks for detail @Spook Sharp eyes you have

@Cabatli_53 @Combat-Master
All Motor sich engines look very similar to each other. Any guesses as to which one this is?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1409911988495470596

 

[Kartal1]

It will be good if they provide assistance for the development of TS-3000.

 

[Saithan]

Better to develop local TS meanwhile, I can't really expect to rely on Ukraine which anytime may turn towards the west and join the herd of embargoers.

Didn't Motor Sich establish a Turkish company in Turkey together with another Turkish Defence Company (Baykar). According to my memory the blueprints of some engines should also have been moved to Turkey to ensure that "western" sanctioning couldn't prevent any engine production transfer.

Ukraine and Turkey establish joint arms production company

Ukraine and Turkey have established a joint corporation for producing precision weaponry and aerospace technologies, the National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) of Ukraine reports. In particular, a contract has been signed between Ukraine’s UkrSpetsExport and Turkey’s Baykar Defence. The...

uawire.org

After seeing the tweet on TV3-117 with western components I am a bit nervous that we'll get stuck on those parts.

 

[TheInsider]

It will be good if they provide assistance for the development of TS-3000.

Western turbines and Soviet turbines are very different. Ukraine has little to offer in terms of TS-3000 development. I don't think we need any assistance from anyone after developing TS-1400.

 

[TheInsider]

Didn't Motor Sich establish a Turkish company in Turkey together with another Turkish Defence Company (Baykar). According to my memory the blueprints of some engines should also have been moved to Turkey to ensure that "western" sanctioning couldn't prevent any engine production transfer.

Ukraine and Turkey establish joint arms production company

Ukraine and Turkey have established a joint corporation for producing precision weaponry and aerospace technologies, the National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) of Ukraine reports. In particular, a contract has been signed between Ukraine’s UkrSpetsExport and Turkey’s Baykar Defence. The...

uawire.org

After seeing the tweet on TV3-117 with western components I am a bit nervous that we'll get stuck on those parts.

The rights of the AL-450T(T for Turkish version) engines belong to Blacksea Shield.

 

[Zafer]

Blacksea Shield is based in Istanbul an is 51% Baykar.

 

[Philips]

Western turbines and Soviet turbines are very different. Ukraine has little to offer in terms of TS-3000 development. I don't think we need any assistance from anyone after developing TS-1400.

Turkey has mastered two of the most critical components of a turbine engine, the combustion chamber and HP turbine blades. Something tells me this feat led to GE to allow TEI to produce the combustion chamber for the T700-TEI-701D, something unprecedented in the world:

Hot spot parts such as high-cycle combustion chamber (combustor) during the lifetime of the engine will be manufactured by TEI in Turkey for the first time. https://tei.com.tr/en/projects/ait-mro/t700-tei-701d-2584

The major thing that needs improvement is the use of materials to make the engine lighter. TEI uses materials that are heavier but easier to get in the case of embargoes. This makes the TS1400 weigh 30kg heavier than the CTS-800-4A. A TS3000 will weigh almost 400kg if non lighter materials are used. Unacceptable, since the Ukrainian engine weighs 300kg at 2500hp. TEI/Turkey needs to somehow get the lighter materials in-house.

 

[Nutuk]

Western turbines and Soviet turbines are very different. Ukraine has little to offer in terms of TS-3000 development. I don't think we need any assistance from anyone after developing TS-1400.

Not really!

Turbines are pretty much the same, just the approach is different.

While western engine makers prioritize durability, emission, efficiency, safety etc. (hence why Western engines are much more expensive)

Russian engine makers looked more at practical and cheaper production ways, else these engines are not that much different

 

[TheInsider]

TEI - TEI-TS1400 Turboşaft Motor Geliştirme Projesi

www.tei.com.tr

TS-3000 will produce more power. As the name suggests it is in the 3000 shp (take-off power) class. TS-1400 produces over 1400 shp take-off power with a ratio of 8.54shp/kg which means it weighs ~164kg. It indeed shies away from using the exotic alloys because of the embargo threat but the weight of the engine is successfully kept in check by using widespread 3D additive manufacturing. It will be the same for TS-3000. At the current ratio of 8.54shp/kg, we can expect TS-3000 to weigh ~350kg but I expect an even lower weight as TS-1400 is the first turboshaft engine development project of TEI. I think we can hit a ratio of 9 shp/kg with TS-3000 which will put it around 335kg.

VK-2500 295kg 2400shp take-off power(8.13shp/kg)

VK-2500-03 - Motor Sich

TV3-117VMA-SBM1V Series 5 335kg 2800hp take-off power.(8.35shp/kg)

TV3-117VMA-SBM1V series 5 - Motor Sich

 

[TheInsider]

Not really!

Turbines are pretty much the same, just the approach is different.

While western engine makers prioritize durability, emission, efficiency, safety etc. (hence why Western engines are much more expensive)

Russian engine makers looked more at practical and cheaper production ways, else these engines are not that much different

False. Western engines use single crystal turbine blades. Soviet tech is different they manufacture turbine blades differently. This is why they are not durable and their overall performance is worse than their western counterparts. On the good side, they are cheaper and easier to produce. If you master the production of western single-crystal switching to the production of soviet turbine blades takes nearly a similar effort. So even if Ukraine gives us the blueprints for their engines we need metallurgic expertise(this is gained via hard work even when you are getting it through ToT) and specialized machinery to produce soviet turbine blades.

 

[Nutuk]

That's the same bro.

The turbine technique is basically the same with durability differences

 

[TheInsider]

I explained in detail why they are not the same. Brayton cycle is the same that is it. That is why China is having real difficulty switching Soviet to western single crystal turbine blades. For example, Russian RD-33 and AL-31 use directionally solidified turbine blades while Turkish TS-1400 uses single crystal turbine blades.

Further read on turbine blades.

Each Blade a Single Crystal

Clever casting techniques produce jet engines that can withstand 2,000-degree temperatures, allowing unprecedented efficiency.

www.americanscientist.org

 

[Nutuk]

single crystal is newer technique, that's all

 

[Yasar_TR]

Actually, the Russian turbine blade manufacturing is way behind it’s western counterparts. They still use super alloys in the manufacture of their engine blades. Pls see below.
As can be seen, the RD33 uses super alloys in the blades. Their life span is much shorter and need maintenance more often.

Material Origins of the Accelerated Operational Wear of RD-33 Engine Blades

The structural and strength analysis of the materials used to construct an important engine element such as the turbine is of great significance, at both the design stage and during tests and training relating to emergency situations. This paper presents the results of a study on the chemical...

www.mdpi.com

They are now working on producing higher life cycle blades with additive technologies. This is still in experimental stages. But they are closing the gap.

Russian-made Gas Turbine Production Moves Step Closer

Power Machines finishes development of new flow path for GTE-65.1 gas turbine

www.dieselgasturbine.com

 

[Saithan]

Airwolf Pretty Much Shaped My Life And It Turns 35 Years Old Today

The '80s action show about a reclusive pilot, a shady intelligence outfit and an incredible black helicopter got me hooked on a bunch of topics.

www.thedrive.com

Perhaps we should adopt the theme song from this series I am really looking forward our own domestic engine being used.

 

[Ryder]

Actually, the Russian turbine blade manufacturing is way behind it’s western counterparts. They still use super alloys in the manufacture of their engine blades. Pls see below.
As can be seen, the RD33 uses super alloys in the blades. Their life span is much shorter and need maintenance more often.

Material Origins of the Accelerated Operational Wear of RD-33 Engine Blades

The structural and strength analysis of the materials used to construct an important engine element such as the turbine is of great significance, at both the design stage and during tests and training relating to emergency situations. This paper presents the results of a study on the chemical...

www.mdpi.com

They are now working on producing higher life cycle blades with additive technologies. This is still in experimental stages. But they are closing the gap.

Russian-made Gas Turbine Production Moves Step Closer

Power Machines finishes development of new flow path for GTE-65.1 gas turbine

www.dieselgasturbine.com

Has Russian Technology ever caught up to the West??

It seems in the cold war from the 1950s to the 1970s that they were able to keep parity in technology but once the 1980s hit the Russians began to fall behind which can explain why they lost the Cold War.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Has Russian Technology ever caught up to the West??

It seems in the cold war from the 1950s to the 1970s that they were able to keep parity in technology but once the 1980s hit the Russians began to fall behind which can explain why they lost the Cold War.

Actually I don’t think that they ever caught up with the West. There is a saying ; There is more than one way to skin a cat. Russians/Soviets made practical machines instead of high tech elaborate machines, that served their purpose. When US spent millions of dollars to perfect a ballpoint pen that writes in space, Russians used a pencil. But with the emergence of computer era and high tech becoming more of a game changer, they really fell behind. They realised that the old and antiquated machine park that needed replacing, was going to bankrupt them. (Look what it took for the West Germans to bring East to their standard) . If it weren’t for their natural resources and their educated population, they would have become a pre industrialised nation after the break up of Soviets.

 

[Ryder]

Actually I don’t think that they ever caught up with the West. There is a saying ; There is more than one way to skin a cat. Russians/Soviets made practical machines instead of high tech elaborate machines, that served their purpose. When US spent millions of dollars to perfect a ballpoint pen that writes in space, Russians used a pencil. But with the emergence of computer era and high tech becoming more of a game changer, they really fell behind. They realised that the old and antiquated machine park that needed replacing, was going to bankrupt them. (Look what it took for the West Germans to bring East to their standard) . If it weren’t for their natural resources and their educated population, they would have become a pre industrialised nation after the break up of Soviets.

Also build reliable and cheap stuff.

I watched a video on how the Soviets failed in going to the moon due to their communist political system and bureaucracy.