Biden says Pakistan may be ‘one of the most dangerous nations in the world’

Kedikesenfare

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The problem with Biden is that you can never know when something he says is a result of a policy decision and when it's the dementia talking.

I also heard that there was a resolution tabled in the House that seeks to recognise the 1971 Genocide of Bangladeshis.

Something tells me the US is not entirely happy with whatever came of Gen. Bajwa's recent visit to DC.
He's too old. I'm not saying this because I don't like his foreign policy.

Biden has dementia and it is undeniable. Even a layman can tell you this after a quick YouTube search. Just watch the videos.

According to some journalists with connections to the Democrats though, many seniors in the party are against him running for a second term. I hope he steps down voluntarily and gets his treatment.
 

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I'm fairly ignorant of Pakistan/India relations and history. All i know about India is that she has certain domestic issues like most nations. But India despite its massive size and despite being a nuclear power it never gave off the impression it was looking to start a fight with anyone.

Even in recent years with the anti-Turkey sentiment stemming from erdogans constant shitting on India, they still haven't thrown their capabilities and weight entirely behind our foes.

The other thing is i live in England and got to know plenty of Indians, mostly Sikhs, but also Hindus and Muslims and they don't really strike me as the people who are looking to start trouble or a fight. Unless you instigate these people, all they seemed concerned with here is making a life for themselves.

If erdogan wanted to help Pakistan and India resolve their issues he should have done it quietly and behind doors, instead he antagonised India and further inflamed divisions between either state.

Other then making Pakistanis happy, i don't see any tangible results or benefits for any nation involved from it.

From what i gather Bangaladesh has a good relationship with India, we have a good relationship with Pakistan and Bangladesh. If Turkey helped resolve Pakistan/India differences, or even just helped to diminish them, thats a market of 1.5 to 2 billion people for Turkey to benefit from. And honestly if you have a good relationship with these people i don't see them looking to undermine us the same way the USA and EU does.
While there's a good possibility for Turkey to mediate in good faith, India will be vary of it given Erdogan's previous statements on Kashmir, military ties and weapons sales with pak and the ummah brotherhood

Secondly, I wonder how exactly is Turkey in a position to mediate since it doesn't have any clout, significant economic/trade partner or maintaining a neutral stance wrt to India let alone being an ally or having friendly ties

Also, even if India & pak sit together to resolve the dispute or convert LoC into an IB...the west wouldn't allow it and would want to keep the conflict ongoing for several reasons
 

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I think Pakistan is running towards becoming a "failed state" in full throttle. From this perspective, Biden is right.

However; Biden has no right to say a word when there is a US invading Iraq by making excuses, and Russia occupying Ukraine, a neighbor that does not attack him.

No one is safe in a world with the nuclear USA and nuclear Russia displaying such behaviors. Let Biden and the USA first look in the mirror and then talk!
 
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dBSPL

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First of all, one thing needs to be clarified. Trying to say that the USA's point of view is about world peace is nothing but western type propaganda.

Even the USA admits that its foreign policy is determined by its own interests, not law and justice -even if it's totally illegal-, and has confess this over the example of Turkiye-Greece just a week ago, it is extremely difficult to convincing Turks that the US statement here is about the fight against international terrorism. It actually creates a tragicomic situation.

There is a territorial dispute between India and Pakistan. As an extension of this, a balance of nuclear terror emerged. First India, then Pakistan got nuclear warheads. There were many tense moments and hot-contacts that came to the brink of war between the two countries, but this nuclear balance among the reason that protected both countries. Now, under this thread, Indian members are trying to explain that this capacity of Pakistan is a problem for the world. This way of thinking reminds me too much of the Greeks.

If Pakistan's nuclear capability is a risk, India's nuclear capability is the greater risk. Nuclear disarmament should be valid for both sides, not for one side, if it is not possible, the current situation should be preserved. In addition, there is also a 'for us, Turks' side of the issue. And this side is not just about Pakistan-Turkiye relations, it is also about India's public and foreign policies.

India is among the biggest supporters that encouraged Armenia to another adventure with its arms sales, at a time when Turkiye's initiatives ended the 35-year war in the Caucasus and was closer to peace than ever before. So India is ignoring the risk of rekindling terrorism in the region. The Indian public is also producing an increasingly extreme understanding of the Turkish state. These are the basic parameters that allow us to get an idea about a country, not some Indians joining us and giving warm messages. Actions and mass orientations are superior to perception studies. In the light of these parameters, we have the right to say the stance that TR should adopt here, just as the US has expressed its own view(NOT ABOUT WORLD PEACE).
 
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Quite the irony when it was pakistan which threatened to retaliate with nukes every time when there are heightened tensions or escalated skirmishes at the border while India hardly ever brings up the usage of nukes on a public platform. Not to mention, we're still bound by NFU (no first use) policy

When Indian military came up with the concept of cold start doctrine against pak's aggression and terrorist activities, pak immediately made a statement they'd resort to tactical nukes ... simply reflects pak's disregard to their own populace on the potential nuclear fallout
It is very logical for pakistan from a deterrence perspective.
Why do you think russia instantly talks about nukes nowadays ?
Because they are heavily outgunned conventionally by NATO. And the same is true with india pakistan dynamics.
but More ironically, During the cold NATO itself used to threatened first use of tactical nukes because of the soviet conventional ground force superiority.
so, there is nothing special about pakistans behaviour.
And by the way, as far as i read, even though the cold start doctrine exist in the text book but the doctrine is never been seriously adapted by indian political leadership. because, it is likely to ended up with pakistan using tactical nukes on subcontinents soil.
 

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Not to mention putting a nuclear delivery system in the hands of a Brigade commander is a recipe for disaster. This on top of the nuclear arsenal having zero civilian control or oversight. The Army junta is still in control of everything, not the "elected" government.

Lets not forget this is the country where officer-rank members of the Navy sought to literally hijack a Guided Missile Frigate and use its SSMs in a terror attack.


Anyone who thinks there need not be any concerns over Pakistan's control (or lack thereof) of its arsenal is not living in reality.

Trust me, if this country was your neighbour, you'd be extremely concerned.
but we are extremely concerned about constantly appearing in BJPs 'GREATER INDIA MAP!'
not to say how aggressive and insulting it is, just ask turks here how would they feel if they see the greek ruling party showing a map in which the whole turkey is part of greece!

aside from nuclear escalation threat in subcontinent at least pakistan for now doesn't have any 'GREATER MAP' ambition which include the sovereign bangladesh.
 
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Gessler

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just ask turks here how would they feel if they see the greek ruling party showing a map in which the whole turkey is part of greece!

Are you seriously drawing a parallel between what some fanboys do on Twitter and that which is adopted as official policy by the Govt? Because this is what Pakistan did under PTI govt:

Eh9RfMsX0AElhK1.jpg:large


Imagine saying territories you never even claimed since 1947 are now yours and then making them official map of country. The fact that even US sought regime change in Pakistan for the first time in decades ought to tell you the kind of madmen in charge of the country.

5f297e440a203.jpg


First of all, one thing needs to be clarified. Trying to say that the USA's point of view is about world peace is nothing but western type propaganda.

Even the USA admits that its foreign policy is determined by its own interests, not law and justice -even if it's totally illegal-, and has confess this over the example of Turkiye-Greece just a week ago, it is extremely difficult to convincing Turks that the US statement here is about the fight against international terrorism. It actually creates a tragicomic situation.

There is a territorial dispute between India and Pakistan. As an extension of this, a balance of nuclear terror emerged. First India, then Pakistan got nuclear warheads. There were many tense moments and hot-contacts that came to the brink of war between the two countries, but this nuclear balance among the reason that protected both countries. Now, under this thread, Indian members are trying to explain that this capacity of Pakistan is a problem for the world. This way of thinking reminds me too much of the Greeks.

If Pakistan's nuclear capability is a risk, India's nuclear capability is the greater risk. Nuclear disarmament should be valid for both sides, not for one side, if it is not possible, the current situation should be preserved. In addition, there is also a 'for us, Turks' side of the issue. And this side is not just about Pakistan-Turkiye relations, it is also about India's public and foreign policies.

India is among the biggest supporters that encouraged Armenia to another adventure with its arms sales, at a time when Turkiye's initiatives ended the 35-year war in the Caucasus and was closer to peace than ever before. So India is ignoring the risk of rekindling terrorism in the region. The Indian public is also producing an increasingly extreme understanding of the Turkish state. These are the basic parameters that allow us to get an idea about a country, not some Indians joining us and giving warm messages. Actions and mass orientations are superior to perception studies. In the light of these parameters, we have the right to say the stance that TR should adopt here, just as the US has expressed its own view(NOT ABOUT WORLD PEACE).

You don't seem to understand what the issue is - its not about whether Pakistan should have nukes or not (officially, any country outside the P5 shouldn't have nukes, but that's not the world we live in), its about how safe they are in a country with near-zero civilian authority over the military, a well-documented radicalization issue within the ranks of said military, the control of nukes increasingly becoming decentralized and handed down to lower & lower ranked officers in operational roles in the pursuit of deterring conventional attack.

Pointing at India's nukes is not a justification for Pakistan not having a No-First-Use policy, having an opaque & nondescript command structure with no Elected Representative (who can at least claim to represent the public's interest) holding actual executive power over the use of nukes, so quite clearly its stated that their use of nukes will be as blackmail leverage in the pursuit of the military & ISI's offensive actions & designs in the region.

Is India stopping Pakistan from adopting an NFU or bringing the nukes under a command structure where one can be reasonably assured that nukes would be held in public interest and not as leverage against retaliation for ISI's sub-conventional operations i.e. terrorism?

It's easy to say "both sides are at fault", but a lot more complicated to look deeper into what the actual problem is. Look at the comparative track records wrt proliferation. Was it India supplying nuclear materials to Iran, Libya & North Korea? Officially, India has fewer nukes than either Pakistan or China, and yet India ratified a No-First-Use policy.

There's a reason why India was the only non-NPT i.e. illegal nuclear power to be given a waiver by the Nuclear Suppliers Group to carry out trade in nuclear materials - its because of that track record. There's such a thing as being a responsible nuclear power.

---

Lastly, let's not forget the most important thing: Demonstration of intent.

India's nuclear program was started with China in mind (China tested its first nuke in 1964), not Pakistan. India tested its first nuke in 1974 and Pakistan only did by 1998. There was a period of 24 years where India not only had conventional superiority but also was the only one with nukes. It was not difficult for India to start a sub-conventional or even full-blown conventional war against Pakistan and use its nuclear weapons (+ Soviet support) as leverage against anyone intervening in Pakistan's defence. How many wars did India start against Pak in those 24 years? Zero.

Pakistan acquired its first nuke in 1998. Just 1 year later, the Pakistan military (with the civilian government having little to no knowledge or control over their actions) launched a war against India and immediately went to nuclear blackmail as leverage.


Like I said, there's such a thing as being a responsible nuclear power, and such a thing as being "Exhibit A" of why nuclear proliferation is a major global concern. I know that there are a lot of people in other Islamic-majority countries that have a soft corner or bleeding heart for Pakistan because its the only Muslim country with nukes - but that doesn't mean one can say because India also has nukes, so everything is excused.

There are very legitimate concerns over the safety of Pakistan's nuclear weapons - the primary ones being 1) the civilian leadership being largely a puppet of the military, and 2) the possibility of radicals, either within or outside the military's ranks, acquiring the weapons or at least nuclear materials which can result in a dirty bomb to be used in terrorist actions.
 

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By the way, the fact that Pakistan's arsenal is a global concern is not something that Pakistan's own Army doesn't know. They know very well, and the fact that concerned powers could enact military actions to "Snatch & Grab" the warheads is part of Pakistan Military's strategic considerations:

photo_2022-04-10_00-25-11 (1).jpg


 

Afif

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Are you seriously drawing a parallel between what some fanboys do on Twitter and that which is adopted as official policy by the Govt? Because this is what Pakistan did under PTI govt:

Eh9RfMsX0AElhK1.jpg:large


Imagine saying territories you never even claimed since 1947 are now yours and then making them official map of country. The fact that even US sought regime change in Pakistan for the first time in decades ought to tell you the kind of madmen in charge of the country.

5f297e440a203.jpg




You don't seem to understand what the issue is - its not about whether Pakistan should have nukes or not (officially, any country outside the P5 shouldn't have nukes, but that's not the world we live in), its about how safe they are in a country with near-zero civilian authority over the military, a well-documented radicalization issue within the ranks of said military, the control of nukes increasingly becoming decentralized and handed down to lower & lower ranked officers in operational roles in the pursuit of deterring conventional attack.

Pointing at India's nukes is not a justification for Pakistan not having a No-First-Use policy, having an opaque & nondescript command structure with no Elected Representative (who can at least claim to represent the public's interest) holding actual executive power over the use of nukes, so quite clearly its stated that their use of nukes will be as blackmail leverage in the pursuit of the military & ISI's offensive actions & designs in the region.

Is India stopping Pakistan from adopting an NFU or bringing the nukes under a command structure where one can be reasonably assured that nukes would be held in public interest and not as leverage against retaliation for ISI's sub-conventional operations i.e. terrorism?

It's easy to say "both sides are at fault", but a lot more complicated to look deeper into what the actual problem is. Look at the comparative track records wrt proliferation. Was it India supplying nuclear materials to Iran, Libya & North Korea? Officially, India has fewer nukes than either Pakistan or China, and yet India ratified a No-First-Use policy.

There's a reason why India was the only non-NPT i.e. illegal nuclear power to be given a waiver by the Nuclear Suppliers Group to carry out trade in nuclear materials - its because of that track record. There's such a thing as being a responsible nuclear power.

---

Lastly, let's not forget the most important thing: Demonstration of intent.

India's nuclear program was started with China in mind (China tested its first nuke in 1964), not Pakistan. India tested its first nuke in 1974 and Pakistan only did by 1998. There was a period of 24 years where India not only had conventional superiority but also was the only one with nukes. It was not difficult for India to start a sub-conventional or even full-blown conventional war against Pakistan and use its nuclear weapons (+ Soviet support) as leverage against anyone intervening in Pakistan's defence. How many wars did India start against Pak in those 24 years? Zero.

Pakistan acquired its first nuke in 1998. Just 1 year later, the Pakistan military (with the civilian government having little to no knowledge or control over their actions) launched a war against India and immediately went to nuclear blackmail as leverage.


Like I said, there's such a thing as being a responsible nuclear power, and such a thing as being "Exhibit A" of why nuclear proliferation is a major global concern. I know that there are a lot of people in other Islamic-majority countries that have a soft corner or bleeding heart for Pakistan because its the only Muslim country with nukes - but that doesn't mean one can say because India also has nukes, so everything is excused.

There are very legitimate concerns over the safety of Pakistan's nuclear weapons - the primary ones being 1) the civilian leadership being largely a puppet of the military, and 2) the possibility of radicals, either within or outside the military's ranks, acquiring the weapons or at least nuclear materials which can result in a dirty bomb to be used in terrorist actions.
i want to avoid drawing parallel between twitter fan boys and official govt policy as much as you do!
but i do not believe this is what happening here.

RSS headquarter ( which is the backbone of BJP and the biggest and most influential socio cultural organization in india ) is definitely not the place for twitter fanboys! so, when we see a GREATER INDIA MAP hanging on the wall there it is really concerning. and it is not just there only but lot of their ohter places like regional offices hold it too. ( no one has to take my word for it anyone can research for him/herself.
1665928954455.png

( just like the one you showed hanging in PTI headquarter! but actually it is less concerning compared to GREATER INDIA map given the india and pakistan are both nuclear power so change of border between them is very unlikely which not the case with bangladesh. )

the RSS has even a new FLAG for their GREATER INDIA! and these are the word of a man who was second chief of RSS and who formulated their notorious doctrine and the cannon book BUNCH OF THOUGHTS ( where he identify the muslims in general (not pakistan) number one internal threat to india )
1665925305276.png


not to mention, many indian ultra rightwing politicians expressed similar desire many times in the past directly or indirectly.
 
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Gessler

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i want to avoid drawing parallel between twitter fan boys and official govt policy as much as you do!
but i do not believe this is what happening here.

RSS headquarter ( which is the backbone of BJP and the biggest and most influential socio cultural organization in india ) is definitely not the place for twitter fanboys! so, when we see a GREATER INDIA MAP hanging on the wall there it is really concerning.
( just like the one you showed hanging in PTI headquarter! but actually it is less concerning compared to GREATER INDIA map given the india and pakistan are both nuclear power so change of border between them is very unlikely which not the case with bangladesh. )

the RSS has even a new FLAG for their GREATER INDIA! and these are the word of a man who was second chief of RSS who formulated their notorious doctrine and the cannon book BUNCH OF THOUGHTS ( where he identify the muslims in general (not pakistan) number one internal threat to india ) View attachment 48908

not to mentioned many indian ultra rightwing politicians exressed similar desire many times directly or indirectly.

FYI, that's not PTI's office but that of the National Security Advisor of Pakistan.

The map was declared official by gazette notification. No, there's no parallel to be drawn between that and some people who hold no official position dreaming about being the next Alexander Dugin.
 

Zapper

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What's hilarious is PTI left an open ended boundary for Kashmir... it's like stating we're gonna invade and see how far we can possibly go and then redraw the map

and claiming Junagadh when they literally have no land connection...must've forgotten what happened with Hyderabad or B'desh
 

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FYI, that's not PTI's office but that of the National Security Advisor of Pakistan.

The map was declared official by gazette notification. No, there's no parallel to be drawn between that and some people who hold no official position dreaming about being the next Alexander Dugin.
Actually is this case, it is the otherway around! Alexander Dugin is a tool used by uncle Vlad to gave his ideology an ACADEMIC icing.
While on the other hand, BJP is the tip of the iceberg and the RSS is the rest of it. ( MODI said repeatedly in multiple interviews he found his salvation when he was in the RSS! )

I mean these are well known facts! It seems very surprising to me how you wanna downplay the RSS's massive political and social influence.
 
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fire starter

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Pakistan is a failed nation full of radicals so there is high risk of nuclear weapons falling in the hands of terrorists. And it should really concern the whole world since any nuclear war will result in nuclear winter.
 

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i want to avoid drawing parallel between twitter fan boys and official govt policy as much as you do!
but i do not believe this is what happening here.

RSS headquarter ( which is the backbone of BJP and the biggest and most influential socio cultural organization in india ) is definitely not the place for twitter fanboys! so, when we see a GREATER INDIA MAP hanging on the wall there it is really concerning.
( just like the one you showed hanging in PTI headquarter! but actually it is less concerning compared to GREATER INDIA map given the india and pakistan are both nuclear power so change of border between them is very unlikely which not the case with bangladesh. )

the RSS has even a new FLAG for their GREATER INDIA! and these are the word of a man who was second chief of RSS and who formulated their notorious doctrine and the cannon book BUNCH OF THOUGHTS ( where he identify the muslims in general (not pakistan) number one internal threat to india ) View attachment 48908

not to mention, many indian ultra rightwing politicians expressed similar desire many times in the past directly or indirectly.
RSS has no influence in several parts of India and is kinda non-existant in many state or limited to only certain civilian activities like the South or North East. Why don't you show an actual proof of your claims that "Akhand Bharat" map is hanging on the walls of RSS HQ or regional offices!! BJP govt never claimed or made any statements remotely close to Greater India or Akhand Bharat is official stance.

Even when some ignorant local politicians make such statements, it's mostly about PoK & GB which are disputed and something GoI has been claiming since independence.

As for Greater India, why would we even want to take on another 600mn radicalized population who are anti-India and hell bent on destroying hinduism!!
 

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What's hilarious is PTI left an open ended boundary for Kashmir... it's like stating we're gonna invade and see how far we can possibly go and then redraw the map

and claiming Junagadh when they literally have no land connection...must've forgotten what happened with Hyderabad or B'desh

It's because they don't want to step on the toes of their Chinese masters. Because China claims Aksai Chin and the exact extent of claim on Ladakh is unclear at the international level. Earlier, Pakistan used to claim all of Ladakh, inclusive of Aksai Chin. The new map drops that claim so as not to antagonize China by claiming 'their' territory. Imran Khan was such a pathetic weasel.

Actually is this case, it is the otherway around! Alexander Dugin is a tool used by uncle Vlad to gave his ideology an ACADEMIC icing.
While on the other hand, BJP is the tip of the iceberg and the RSS is the rest of it. ( MODI said repeatedly in multiple interviews he found his salvation when he was in the RSS! )

I mean these are well known facts! It seems very surprising to me how you wanna downplay the RSS's massive political and social influence.

Sounds like a lot of conjecture to me.
 

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Sounds like a lot of conjecture to me.
i can give you well researched academic papers written by respected indian and international scholars on the topic and studies that are done by respected think tanks.
but i am not here to change anyones mind! any forum member can research for himself. ( no one has to take my word for it )
don't forget we are your immediate neighbour! so forum members here probably won't buy your dismissive attitude.
 

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Well they are in hands of Muslims already, also this is Turkish forum and Turks are Muslims.

A small correction, and maybe a pedantic one but this is not a Turkish forum. It's an international forum. Turks have found it and maybe we are disproportinately high in numbers but we should aspire to keep it hospitable towards other nationalities as well.
 
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He's too old. I'm not saying this because I don't like his foreign policy.

Biden has dementia and it is undeniable. Even a layman can tell you this after a quick YouTube search. Just watch the videos.

According to some journalists with connections to the Democrats though, many seniors in the party are against him running for a second term. I hope he steps down voluntarily and gets his treatment.

The issue is he is reading off the teleprompter here. There is a team behind him that vetted all he said here....compared to say a gaffe.

They/him can still correct it now if there was some error on it. But Pakistan has issued demarche and summoned US envoy to protest already etc.
 

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