TR F-16 Özgür | Hürkuş - Fighter Trainer Aircraft Projects

BalkanTurk90

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Does the RCS figure of block 70s really matter? We have 3 stealth platforms being built for stealth needs. F16s won't be a substitute even if you apply newer stealth coating or whatever.
Bro do u really think Turkiye will buy new f16 from USA ? Because i dont think so , Perhaps will just buy convertion kits and some weapons but others will be converted to Özgur f16.
With that money of new f16 Turkey can order 10 New Tf 4500 frigates and some 10 Batteries of Siper SAMs 😍
 

YeşilVatan

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While they, 4.5 gen fighter jets, are not going to become completely irrelevant (as evidenced by the continued purchases and upgrade programs at work by every big military on the planet), their role will most likely change and everyone will try to simply increase their chances of survival by giving them electronic warfare suits and RAM coatings and other passive or active countermeasures because at the end of the day all those things will not cost as much as losing a plane and a pilot. And I think that is what we need to do as well.
Agreed. Even if they lose 10:1 to true 5th generation fighters, just the upkeep and operating costs being lower is a major selling point. And just think, would we use F-35s if we had them to do mundane peacetime tasks? I very much doubt so. 4th gen fighters will continue to be used well into the 2040s in my estimation.
 

uçuyorum

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Agreed. Even if they lose 10:1 to true 5th generation fighters, just the upkeep and operating costs being lower is a major selling point. And just think, would we use F-35s if we had them to do mundane peacetime tasks? I very much doubt so. 4th gen fighters will continue to be used well into the 2040s in my estimation.
Depends on the region and mission profile. A small country with no proper air force.or air defence won't be an issue. F35 was meant to be the workhorse in a world where F16 could no longer operate due to SAM systems especially around Russia and areas where they have influence, even Syria potentially. F35 ended up being too expensive and long range SAM systems aren't in the inventory of every country yet.
 

blackjack

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If you investigate a bit deeper, you will find that the latest Have Glass modified f16s had lower than 1m2 RCS value.
All our block 40 and block50 f16s have 5m2 RCS value. MMRCA version of F16 had a very low RCS value similar to Have Glass modified planes.

View attachment 66976
As can be seen from above graph block 30 F16C is in 1.2m2 RCS range.
Latest iteration of f18 planes had inherently low RCS.
No offense Abicim:)I could not find any info about B40/50 on internet.


This page of global security has two different charts : F16 with 5mRCS is A block

Edit:I have very bad internet connection, on hurry I wrote BS.

So we don't know RCS of modern Viper.



View attachment 66980
I am just throwing it out there that they gave, "average" RCS value to the F-16C, while giving "frontal" value of the F-22
1711996725562.png

The F-16C Average RCS of 1.2m2 makes sense on this since it takes all angles of the aircraft into account. Even from the front it can be as low as .001m2
1711997340519.png

We will never have the average RCS value of the F-22 like the F-16C
 
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Yasar_TR

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There is a saying in Turkish;
Even with a golden saddle a donkey is a donkey.
So, no matter what you do to a F16 plane it’s RCS is not going to be improved to a level whereby it can compete with a modern stealthy 5th generation jet. Nor will it have a stealthy airframe like the delta wing planes such as Rafale and Typhoons.
Also remember that, F16, carrying conformal fuel tanks, missiles and various guided ammunitions under its pylons will be compromised further as far as RCS is concerned.

Have Glass version V , actually improves the f16 RCS from 4-5m2 to close to 1m2. With the MMRCA version of F16 they have improved the air inlet duct to lower the plane’s RCS further, and managed below 0.9m2 value. .
Where as a Have Glass-V plane can be detected at 60Nm, the same untreated version can be detected at 90Nm distance according to tests carried out.
But the minute you start adding missiles and tanks on to the airframe, you are taking a back step

But if we are going to use our F16s until 2040s, we need to look in to every little bit of advantage we can gain by improving the paint, air duct, airframe, carry missiles with stealthy geometries etc.
 

boredaf

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But if we are going to use our F16s until 2040s, we need to look in to every little bit of advantage we can gain by improving the paint, air duct, airframe, carry missiles with stealthy geometries etc.
All of this and not using them in situations when we don't have air superiority, basically use them to their strengths and not to their weaknesses.
 

Quasar

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Till the arrival of KAAN not Viper but Özgür may have chance to hold its ground against superior enemy and even may be against 5 gen. in some cases. A logical speculation is that some system for KAAN may found a place in özgür for testing I mean for instance Manned & Unmanned pairing between KAAN and ANKA 3 (+super şimşek)& Kızılelma can be tested & applied to Özgür early on..... I mean As much as possible
 
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Bogeyman 

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Additional order for HÜRJET: Delivery is brought forward by 1 year!

Prof. Dr. Haluk Görgün:

"In addition to the 4 Block-0 aircraft signed between our Presidency and TAI, we are including 12 Block-1 aircraft in the scope.

With this contract change, the delivery of 12 serial aircraft within the scope of Block-1 will be converted into a firm order. Aircraft delivery dates will be improved and brought forward by 1 year."


40 more HÜRKUŞ units will be supplied!

Defense Industry President Prof. Dr. Haluk Görgün "We plan to have the first HÜRKUŞ-B aircraft enter the Air Forces Command inventory in May 2025, and the 15th aircraft in September 2025. In order to carry out flight training activities effectively in line with the developing needs of our Air Forces Command, 40 more HÜRKUŞ-Bs will be procured. "We are signing our contract today."

Görgün stated that with the said contract, a total of 55 HÜRKUŞ-B aircraft will enter the inventory.
"In this context, we plan to deliver the 55th aircraft to our Air Force in June 2027. HÜRKUŞ-B, which is the most capable aircraft in its class, will have a 1600 horsepower engine."
 

bruhman

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Agreed. Even if they lose 10:1 to true 5th generation fighters, just the upkeep and operating costs being lower is a major selling point. And just think, would we use F-35s if we had them to do mundane peacetime tasks? I very much doubt so. 4th gen fighters will continue to be used well into the 2040s in my estimation.
See, I agree mostly but I think people overplay the 4.5th gen. If a country has 5th gen available they'll opt for that. Taking the US as the prime example, the navy procured one final measly batch of super hornets basically to use up the budget and to appease Boeing.

The F15EX exists solely to keep the air national guard alive. It's more expensive than a goddamn F35. That's unacceptable. Even its supposed mission as a missile truck is mostly just internet bullshit, since it's never getting those proposed racks that would allow it to carry 20 AMRAAMs (not that that made sense. the jet would have been a complete pig.) It exists so that ANG can argue for a reason for its budget (and existence lmao), and representatives of each state love federal funds. It never even went through proper procurement. No bids or anything. It just one day appeared on the ANG list. Doesn't that just scream like a healthy procurement process to you?

The US no longer even purchases F16s of any kind. All newer US purchases of older fighters are inherently political procurements.

The world itself is becoming a contested environment leaving less room for older jets to move and with continued manufacturing of 5th gen planes, they're becoming cheaper and cheaper. The supposed advantage of 4.5th gens which is less cost of ownership is quickly becoming a thing of the past.
 

boredaf

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If a country has 5th gen available they'll opt for that.
That is simply not true. US might not be buying new F-16s but they are upgrading all of their available ones instead of retiring them, on top of buying new F-15s and F-18s. China is still producing and upgrading their J-10s and J-16s. France is still buying Rafales. UK, Germany, Spain still buying/upgrading their Eurofighters. Russia is still making SU-35s. Israel just recently bought F-15s.

Only countries that are forgoing 4th/4.5th gen planes completely for 5th gen are the ones that have small air forces and expect someone else to do the heavy lifting for them.

And F-15s were bought for the USAF not the National Guard.
 

Ryder

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Depends on the region and mission profile. A small country with no proper air force.or air defence won't be an issue. F35 was meant to be the workhorse in a world where F16 could no longer operate due to SAM systems especially around Russia and areas where they have influence, even Syria potentially. F35 ended up being too expensive and long range SAM systems aren't in the inventory of every country yet.

F35 was also made to replace the F16, F15, A10 and the FA18 jets.

Not to mention it was made so the Air Force, US Navy and US marines all have the same jet just like the F4 phantom which was used by all branches.
 

YeşilVatan

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See, I agree mostly but I think people overplay the 4.5th gen. If a country has 5th gen available they'll opt for that. Taking the US as the prime example, the navy procured one final measly batch of super hornets basically to use up the budget and to appease Boeing.

The F15EX exists solely to keep the air national guard alive. It's more expensive than a goddamn F35. That's unacceptable. Even its supposed mission as a missile truck is mostly just internet bullshit, since it's never getting those proposed racks that would allow it to carry 20 AMRAAMs (not that that made sense. the jet would have been a complete pig.) It exists so that ANG can argue for a reason for its budget (and existence lmao), and representatives of each state love federal funds. It never even went through proper procurement. No bids or anything. It just one day appeared on the ANG list. Doesn't that just scream like a healthy procurement process to you?

The US no longer even purchases F16s of any kind. All newer US purchases of older fighters are inherently political procurements.

The world itself is becoming a contested environment leaving less room for older jets to move and with continued manufacturing of 5th gen planes, they're becoming cheaper and cheaper. The supposed advantage of 4.5th gens which is less cost of ownership is quickly becoming a thing of the past.
You actually changed my opinion on that. Not %100 though, because as boredaf said, upgraded 4th gen fighters are still the main body of the (larger) air forces around the world, and that's not going to change in 15 years. I think the maintenance and production costs should go down more for 5th gen planes to be the mainstay of large militaries. US is the obvious exemption because they throw obscene amounts of money at this issue.
 

bruhman

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That is simply not true. US might not be buying new F-16s but they are upgrading all of their available ones instead of retiring them, on top of buying new F-15s and F-18s. China is still producing and upgrading their J-10s and J-16s. France is still buying Rafales. UK, Germany, Spain still buying/upgrading their Eurofighters. Russia is still making SU-35s. Israel just recently bought F-15s.

Only countries that are forgoing 4th/4.5th gen planes completely for 5th gen are the ones that have small air forces and expect someone else to do the heavy lifting for them.

And F-15s were bought for the USAF not the National Guard.
Air national guard is part of the AF. The first EX were literally given to Oregon national guard lmao. ANG does not exist as its own service, and many would argue is an unnecessary service in and of itself, which is why it's trying to argue for its existence.

Upgrading existing airframes is cheaper than buying entirely new ones, obviously. But the sales of newer 4,5 for the US are political. Russia can't make 5th gen in proper usable numbers, so flankers are a necessity. J-20 aren't one-to-one with flankers in capabiltiy and weren't designed to be, they actually need their missile trucks and EW platforms, plus they aren't procured in enough numbers. J-35 once it reaches its numbers is where the parity would lie. Israel, I'll give you that one, but if they had the option for F-22 I doubt they'd choose f-15. France will never buy F-35 due to protection of domestic industry. The Euro consortium also in turn needs to maintain their own industry with purchases and upgrades, plus bought typhoons can't be left to rot, and the Typhoon is a better A2A platform.

Point is, many of these stem from either domestic industry issues or the F35's design being a strike platform which does not suit their needs. End of the day, if you want a multriole strike fighter, brand new panthers are better than vipers and seemingly not more expensive.
 
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boredaf

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Air national guard is part of the AF. The first EX were literally given to Oregon national guard lmao. ANG does not exist as its own service, and many would argue is an unnecessary service in and of itself, which is why it's trying to argue for its existence.

Upgrading existing airframes is cheaper than buying entirely new ones, obviously. But the sales of newer 4,5 for the US are political. Russia can't make 5th gen in proper usable numbers, so flankers are a necessity. J-20 aren't one-to-one with flankers in capabiltiy and weren't designed to be, they actually need their missile trucks and EW platforms, plus they aren't procured in enough numbers. J-35 once it reaches its numbers is where the parity would lie. Israel, I'll give you that one, but if they had the option for F-22 I doubt they'd choose f-15. France will never buy F-35 due to protection of domestic industry. The Euro consortium also in turn needs to maintain their own industry with purchases and upgrades, plus bought typhoons can't be left to rot, and the Typhoon is a better A2A platform.

Point is, many of these stem from either domestic industry issues or the F35's design being a strike platform which does not suit their needs. End of the day, if you want a multriole strike fighter, brand new panthers are better than vipers and seemingly not more expensive.
Mate, all of this just further proves that countries do not automatically prefer 5th gen fighters even if they have easy access to them. Nobody is upgrading their 4th gen, or rolling out new updated 4.5th gen version just to sit them out somewhere. They'll be used for the foreseeable future, not head to head against 5th gen fighters but in missions that do not require them.
 

Saithan

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Some sources supporting what you say would be nice.

countries like Denmark opted for F35 and not EF. And they had/have F16 as only platform. It’s too costly to have a variety for such small countries.

But the russians keep entering DK airspace so sending F35 everytime is expensive.
 

Sanchez

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The F15EX exists solely to keep the air national guard alive. It's more expensive than a goddamn F35. That's unacceptable. Even its supposed mission as a missile truck is mostly just internet bullshit, since it's never getting those proposed racks that would allow it to carry 20 AMRAAMs (not that that made sense. the jet would have been a complete pig.) It exists so that ANG can argue for a reason for its budget (and existence lmao), and representatives of each state love federal funds. It never even went through proper procurement. No bids or anything.
F-15EX made sense because ANG is already the biggest user of F-15C and EX is a suitable replacement for the type and the role. It also made great sense because development costs for it were already paid for by gulf countries.
 

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