TR Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

[Kartal1]

We have something important here. There are currently at least 2 Turkish Armed Forces personnel in the UNIFIL in Nakura and by the looks the HQ is going to be besieged. Do we have any information about an UN action plan? This is the same base which the IDF attacked earlier, causing injuries to Indonesian soldiers.

 

[dBSPL]

Radical decisions need to be made in the supply of the military systems. When you no longer have deterrence, when you continue your life as a barrier to prevent any kind of risk that would threaten their national security no matter what is done to you, when their intelligence agency is openly working with the most important terrorist organizations in your country and conducting psychological warfare without stopping, and when there is no understanding left in their government that cares about the alliance of the Turkish state with any slightest sympathy, the real troublesome part of the matter is that we are still hoping for help from them like idiots in love with their executioners. However, this understanding will not be easily destroyed, because this platonic understanding in the country is quite strong and widespread. Domestic politics is already in shambles. We couldn't even create a $20 defense contribution fund, the proposal was withdrawn due to the backlash. I can't blame most of them, past mistakes that wasted resources became the main argument of this debate. But at some point we have to decide whether we are going to drown in domestic issues or whether we are going to recognize the abyss the world is heading to and take urgent measures together.

 

[boredaf]

We couldn't even create a $20 defense contribution fund, the proposal was withdrawn due to the backlash. I can't blame most of them, past mistakes that wasted resources became the main argument of this debate.

Oh buzz off with this rhetoric. When people can barely afford their rents and basic needs, of course it was going to meet with backlash. It wasn't just a "20" for a lot of people 750 lira is one or two bills or one big grocery shopping trip. If the government wants to create more fund for the military they should consider cutting the obscene budget of the Diyanet first, it is ridiculously and needlessly large.

Radical decisions need to be made in the supply of the military systems. When you no longer have deterrence, when you continue your life as a barrier to prevent any kind of risk that would threaten their national security no matter what is done to you, when their intelligence agency is openly working with the most important terrorist organizations in your country and conducting psychological warfare without stopping, and when there is no understanding left in their government that cares about the alliance of the Turkish state with any slightest sympathy, the real troublesome part of the matter is that we are still hoping for help from them like idiots in love with their executioners.

So, you want to cut us off from most of our biggest trading partners, biggest importers of our goods that bring 10s of billions to the country and do what exactly? Become beholden to oh so trustworthy Russia or China? Turn into North Korea? 2 decades of short sighted politics and thieves hidden behind official positions left us in the state we are today, not the West. And we are not begging for help, we are trying to do business the best we can. And the reason we have to try so hard is once again because people that have been in charge for over 2 decades fucked up both in their military planning and foreign diplomacy.

This blind hatred of the West without realising how entangled we are not just militarily but economically is just nonsensical.

 

[Zafer]

Oh buzz off with this rhetoric. When people can barely afford their rents and basic needs, of course it was going to meet with backlash. It wasn't just a "20" for a lot of people 750 lira is one or two bills or one big grocery shopping trip. If the government wants to create more fund for the military they should consider cutting the obscene budget of the Diyanet first, it is ridiculously and needlessly large.

So, you want to cut us off from most of our biggest trading partners, biggest importers of our goods that bring 10s of billions to the country and do what exactly? Become beholden to oh so trustworthy Russia or China? Turn into North Korea? 2 decades of short sighted politics and thieves hidden behind official positions left us in the state we are today, not the West. And we are not begging for help, we are trying to do business the best we can. And the reason we have to try so hard is once again because people that have been in charge for over 2 decades fucked up both in their military planning and foreign diplomacy.

This blind hatred of the West without realising how entangled we are not just militarily but economically is just nonsensical.

It is for credit cards over ₺100k limit which means wealthy people

It does not mean cutting off with anyone

We don't lean on Russia or China when we don't lean on the West, we stand straight on our own feet as a pole in the new multipolar world

Türkiye is in a good shape, just look at the world, we are better than most countries that matter despite pandemics and earthquakes

 

[boredaf]

Türkiye is in a good shape, just look at the world, we are better than most countries that matter despite pandemics and earthquakes

Yes, we are in such good shape that in the last 8 years dollar, just one example really, went from 2,26 to 34 lira. Truly a sign of a thriving economy.

We don't lean on Russia or China when we don't lean on the West, we stand straight on our own feet as a pole in the new multipolar world

Once again, your answer has no basis on reality whatsoever, you are living in a reality based on nothing but pure conjecture, not facts. Neither our economy, nor our industrial capacity and not even our population numbers are big enough to make us a superpower. Regional power, sure, that is a real and achievable goal. But superpower is nothing but a lie sold to people who wants to bask in their power fantasy, probably forming Ottoman Empire in games like HOI4 or stuff like that.

Before you say, once again, that I'm underestimating Türkiye or something like that, I'm looking at things realistically without putting on my heart shaped, rose coloured glasses. Our economy would've tanked had Qatar not invested 10 billion dollars in 2022. When you're keeping your own economy alive by investments from outside, you cannot talk about being a world power.

 

[dBSPL]

Oh buzz off with this rhetoric. When people can barely afford their rents and basic needs, of course it was going to meet with backlash. It wasn't just a "20" for a lot of people 750 lira is one or two bills or one big grocery shopping trip. If the government wants to create more fund for the military they should consider cutting the obscene budget of the Diyanet first, it is ridiculously and needlessly large.

So, you want to cut us off from most of our biggest trading partners, biggest importers of our goods that bring 10s of billions to the country and do what exactly? Become beholden to oh so trustworthy Russia or China? Turn into North Korea? 2 decades of short sighted politics and thieves hidden behind official positions left us in the state we are today, not the West. And we are not begging for help, we are trying to do business the best we can. And the reason we have to try so hard is once again because people that have been in charge for over 2 decades fucked up both in their military planning and foreign diplomacy.

This blind hatred of the West without realising how entangled we are not just militarily but economically is just nonsensical.

If you read what I wrote above more carefully, you will understand that it is meaningless to make this complaint to me because unless the waste in institutions is prevented, such savings efforts will somehow become political material and people will criticize, and I say the same thing. Yes, the Directorate of Religious Affairs is associated with a lot of waste and some things are obvious, but you cannot cut the entire budget of this institution. If you are advocating the abolition of the institution, that is another topic of discussion. By the way, these were not the main questions. The real question was the earthquake funds, for example... For credit cards; the annual fund deduction of $20 from those with a credit card limit of +3000 dollars on a single card was not too much. Minimum wage earners should not have a limit of 100 thousand liras anyway, if banks give it, there is another officiousness here.

For the other things you wrote: This is the reflex I am talking about. We are embargoed, we face financial sanctions, our trade is blocked, our national security is threatened, terrorist organizations are supported, and they put us in a mess called the readmission agreement. Despite everything, we have not left the Atlanticist orbit, we have given them everything they asked for, but there is still not the slightest sensitivity about our national security. And we have come to such a situation that even in a situation where our national security is at stake, it is again Turkish literate people in Turkish defense forums who say that we will be punished if we do not submit. We have internalized it to this extent.

There should be reciprocity, whoever treats you the way they treat you. You don't have to be black and white, we have to see the contrast.

 

[boredaf]

Yes, the Directorate of Religious Affairs is associated with a lot of waste and some things are obvious, but you cannot cut the entire budget of this institution.

I'm not talking about cutting it down completely, but it desperately needs to be adjusted.

For the other things you wrote: This is the reflex I am talking about. We are embargoed, we face financial sanctions, our trade is blocked, our national security is threatened, terrorist organizations are supported, and they put us in a mess called the readmission agreement. Despite everything, we have not left the Atlanticist orbit, we have given them everything they asked for, but there is still not the slightest sensitivity about our national security. And we have come to such a situation that even in a situation where our national security is at stake, it is again Turkish literate people in Turkish defense forums who say that we will be punished if we do not submit. We have internalized it to this extent.

I'm not saying "we will be punished", I'm saying actions have consequences and what you want to do would result in us losing our biggest trading partners. There are two spheres on the planet and neither is our friend, would you rather try your luck with Russia and China? Seriously? Both sides has countries that are against us, that would gain something from our demise, but we are integrated with one of them both militarily and economically and trying to sever that bond while we are in a precarious situation economically already is short sighted as fuck.

 

[Lool]

Lets look at this a bit logically. PKK's armed wing in Turkiye is 90% done, we are at the end of the "lock" in the north of Iraq and we are already directly involved in combat operations in Gara, we are 30km deep in Hakurk (after Hakurk there is Qandil). The US is leaving Iraq and they will probably leave Syria till 2030, they will be concentrating more resource on Asia-Pacific, leaving the MENA to other players like Turkiye to deal with the problems.

Look at the statements of the PKK so-called leaders and see the panic they are in. Their middle level field commanders are afraid to come out of their caves because they are going to be fried. PKK is taking its last breaths as the organization we know it. This is why it is so important for them to concentrate on the political side of things and transform the struggle into mainly a political one. The US sees this and that's why they push the PKK towards reformation by giving them the needed time, land and guarantees in Syria. Of course they will not succeed as the Syrian status quo is going to the trash bin very soon and PKK will not like the results.

To fully destroy PKK and its idea is nearly impossible and if by any chance we will need decades for it. What we can realistically do tho, is weaken PKK to such a state where they are no more a danger to the Turkish national and regional security and contain them both militarily and politically where they are no more a significant factor. This is only possible with the proactive approach we demonstrate currently in Iraq, intensive diplomatic efforts with our regional partners and political determination. I think that we managed to achieve a lot in this year and I hope we keep up the good work. Next year will be a tough one, but regardless I don't think you should fall for this rhetoric. A possible peace process is always a theme of talk every year, but the realities on the field point at different story.

The US will never leave Syria; at the very least, I know that Israel would never allow the US to leave Syria.

Moreover, PKK is the single most destructive card against Turkey along with the Greek/Cyprus issue and I know that the US will never leave Turkey unchecked otherwise it would grow too big for the US to control and Iam sure that the US doesnt want a new player like Russia and China into the game

Finally, as long as their is oil, the US will never leave. Even in Iraq, just one missile strike against US bases and the US will have a million excuse to remain in the country and steal their oil

I would also like to state that while its true that the armed wing of the PKK in Turkey is almost gone, as long as you leave the core issue which is the PKK in both Syria and Iraq unchecked, then the PKK will come back stronger and more cancerous

 

[Zafer]

Yes, we are in such good shape that in the last 8 years dollar, just one example really, went from 2,26 to 34 lira. Truly a sign of a thriving economy.

View attachment 71233


Once again, your answer has no basis on reality whatsoever, you are living in a reality based on nothing but pure conjecture, not facts. Neither our economy, nor our industrial capacity and not even our population numbers are big enough to make us a superpower. Regional power, sure, that is a real and achievable goal. But superpower is nothing but a lie sold to people who wants to bask in their power fantasy, probably forming Ottoman Empire in games like HOI4 or stuff like that.

Before you say, once again, that I'm underestimating Türkiye or something like that, I'm looking at things realistically without putting on my heart shaped, rose coloured glasses. Our economy would've tanked had Qatar not invested 10 billion dollars in 2022. When you're keeping your own economy alive by investments from outside, you cannot talk about being a world power.

You can only deceive fools with such arguments. Dollar being where it is is not a sign of bad performance. Economists were saying the dollar would hit 40 lira this past summer yet it is at 34 and is not going anywhere.

How many countries can you count who will be making a 5th gen fighter in the next 5-10 years, it is just the US and China. Türkiye will come after these two countries and Russia is yet an unknown if they can be one of the countries. This makes Türkiye a big power if not a superpower. The US is at one end of the world, China is at another end while Türkiye has the advantage of being at the center of the world with easy reach to a wide area because of its geographic location. You can tell this by just looking at how well Istanbul airport performs.

Türkiye is to gain energy independence fast going forward. Türkiye is also to tap into foreign human capital to further ındustrialize. The US and China and EU and Russia are all unions of countries. Türkiye can attract other countries to its purposes like a magnet in the coming 5-10 years. This will potentially place Türkiye at a high position inside an elite power group of 7-8 countries.

 

[dBSPL]

I'm not saying "we will be punished", I'm saying actions have consequences and what you want to do would result in us losing our biggest trading partners. There are two spheres on the planet and neither is our friend, would you rather try your luck with Russia and China? Seriously? Both sides has countries that are against us, that would gain something from our demise, but we are integrated with one of them both militarily and economically and trying to sever that bond while we are in a precarious situation economically already is short sighted as fuck.

Turkiye is about to reach the capability to produce its own military air force and navy. We will no longer buy 200 airplanes and 50,000 bombs from anyone, and our frigates will no longer be produced in other countries. One by one, systems are moving from prototypes to mass-produced systems. Both in the transformation of these prototypes into mass production and in the purchasing processes within the scope of urgent needs, we are blocked not by Russia or China, but by our traditional allies. This situation has reached a point where it is completely intolerable. If we do nothing today, conditions tomorrow will be much more severe and unsustainable. The indirect source of the threat is theirself, and they are also implementing a widespread embargo on military systems, all are our's military allies...

This is what I want to tell. But I think the most fundemental problem here is that the western alliance is threatening our national security and we are willing to put up with it, moreover, we are willing to risk not getting any weapons if they don't give them to us. In return, we expect less sanctions, maybe a little bit of sympathy, just enough to overcome the feeling of inferiority. How did this situation come about, because we sat on the German and American lap for more than 50 years. I think it's absurd to ask someone who says we should get off this lap, whether you should go and sit on the Russian lap. When a nation's national security issues clash with its military allies, it is the downfall of that nation, sooner or later. This is not a simple threat, this is the biggest dilemma we have faced in close to a century, but we insist on not understanding it.

Even China, which is seen as a pole today, received help from the French as much as it did from the Russians in developing its aviation industry to the present day. But we, the most principled in the world, need to continue to act according to world politics of 50 years ago, fearing the wrath of our allies even when they betray us. I expect reciprocity policy like every honorable citizen. I am not saying we should be hostile or turn our backs on anyone. Let's continue to work with everyone in areas where we can work, but once we allow our national interests to be violated, they will always be violated, and that is what we are experiencing right now.

 

[Corvus]

We have to act more aggressive in Syria, like what Israel was doing over the years against Hamas & Hezbollah "mowing the grass", the US is arming them up well then we have to find and destroy those weapon caches. I don't like this passive coward policies, whenever the west is busy with other things we have to hammer down on PKK in Syria, short but intense. This is not a region and they are not people you can deal with diplomacy and patience.

Recent history suggests otherwise.

Israel's reliance on force has not resolved its challenges; in fact, it has increased them, leading to the most insecure times in the country’s history. Their security-centric policies have proven to be a failure.

Similarly, despite achieving military victories over the PKK on multiple occasions, we have not succeeded in resolving our own issues yet.

These complex problems demand comprehensive solutions that encompass economic, social, political, and legal dimensions. One must know nothing about the region and its recent history to believe that only killing is a viable path to resolution.

 

[CAN_TR]

Recent history suggests otherwise.

Israel's reliance on force has not resolved its challenges; in fact, it has increased them, leading to the most insecure times in the country’s history. Their security-centric policies have proven to be a failure.

Similarly, despite achieving military victories over the PKK on multiple occasions, we have not succeeded in resolving our own issues yet.

These complex problems demand comprehensive solutions that encompass economic, social, political, and legal dimensions. One must know nothing about the region and its recent history to believe that only killing is a viable path to resolution.

Interesting that you always respond when we talk about harsher measurments against PKK in Syria...

Economic? Social? Political? We gave them all three, look at our Parliament, look at the "protests" for OCalans freedom in the South East, look at those rats in Turkish Universities, what are you talking about.

You can't eradicate this ideology, therefore you have to fight it, not give them more wealth, social and political power. No matter wealthy or not, educated or not they will not change.

 

[Rooxbar]

We had access to the products of trillions dollars worth of R&D to learn from for 3 decades. That's ending: the gravity of this, I'd hope, the frequenters of a defense forum would understand; but alas they think our engineers are magicians.

 

[Corvus]

Interesting that you always respond when we talk about harsher measurments against PKK in Syria...

Economic? Social? Political? We gave them all three, look at our Parliament, look at the "protests" for OCalans freedom in the South East, look at those rats in Turkish Universities, what are you talking about.

You can't eradicate this ideology, therefore you have to fight it, not give them more wealth, social and political power. No matter wealthy or not, educated or not they will not change.

My response wasn't about the PKK in Syria. I just generally find it pretty naive that you think such problems are solvable by killing.

Could you please tell me in what fantasy world Israel's security focused policies turned out well for them that you give it as a positive example? It seems like you're more into killing (satisfying your superiority complex) rather than actually solving the problems.

If you talk about ensuring social, economic and political justice for all the citizens as "giving" that means the problem is still not solved. Justice is not yours to give it to anyone and this type of arrogance is the main source of many conflicts.

I suggest you to exercise some empathy. That's the first step of bringing the peace.

 

[Corvus]

This is some of the most pretentious, holier-than-thou drivel I've ever seen on this site. You respond with worthless vague statements like "peace good" "try empathy lol".

Literally anyone ever can say that war is bad, this is such a trite statement to make that it adds absolutely nothing to the discourse. Saying "war bad tho" doesn't make war disappear unless you live in some juvenile utopia. We have tried to stop this peacefully. GAP comes to mind, billions of dollars down the drain trying to uplift the eastern part of this country.

See, it really wasn't that long ago that we were scared shitless of going outside. It wasn't that long ago that there were active and constant battles within the country. It's only because we finally said fuck this and put our boots on that the fighting got pushed outside the country and we got some headway into actual security.

Your idea of somehow making this work on the negotiation table has been tried and failed, they will not concede from autonomy (at the bare minimum) and we will not concede from a full, unitary country. There is no compromise to be made. And they're sure as shit not going to change their idea when the US sees them as a very useful proxy tool to do their bidding in the middle east without sacrificing US lives.

And I'll be honest, if an ethnicity that has never in their entire history of existing had a state of their own gets to carve one out of 4 goddamn countries and a Turk actually supports this because they legit drank the American kool-aid, God help you. Might as well claim a mini-Turkiye in each and every single country where we're a sizable minority then? Will you support that? Shit I want Berlin. If Justice is not ours to give, does it belong to the US or the ones we fight who get to randomly claim this or that as theirs? But you'll give some horseshit vague answer about how justice is found through an impartial screening or some other thesaurus extract and pat yourself on the back 'n call it a day. Shit, Armenians have a stronger claim to the lands they want from us than them, lol.

I actually agree that my statement above was vague and that caused misunderstandings from your side combined with the prejudice. You are arguing things that I never meant.

I remember very well what happened in Çözüm Süreci and I don't want same mistakes to be repeated. We should continue our military operations until PKK becomes practically "peaceful" meaning they no longer pose military threat to us.

BUT, that's still not going to be a total solution. A total solution requires a comprehensive and substantial approach that we haven't applied before.

Unfortunately I have very little hope for such solution as our nation and politicians are far from this level of maturity.

 

[CAN_TR]

My response wasn't about the PKK in Syria. I just generally find it pretty naive that you think such problems are solvable by killing.

Could you please tell me in what fantasy world Israel's security focused policies turned out well for them that you give it as a positive example? It seems like you're more into killing (satisfying your superiority complex) rather than actually solving the problems.

If you talk about ensuring social, economic and political justice for all the citizens as "giving" that means the problem is still not solved. Justice is not yours to give it to anyone and this type of arrogance is the main source of many conflicts.

I suggest you to exercise some empathy. That's the first step of bringing the peace.

Diplomacy, economy and education aren't the solution as we saw, therefore you have to reduce their numbers from time to time, that's how you deal with vermin.

Well Israel had more enemies than just Iran and it's proxies, Iraq and Syria are no threat anymore. Egypt could have been one but Moursi was taken care off quickly. I'm not into killing, but this is a problem that you can't solve any other way than hard power. If you think that this conflict emerged because injustice then you are pretty naive, this conflict is just the continuation of the 1930s and during all the uprisings in the Ottoman era.
Then explain us what the solution is, because i know what you are up to, so don't talk around all the time and say it strait out.

Empathy for terrorists and their sympathizers, sure buddy do you want some coffee and cake too?

 

[RMZN]

I actually agree that my statement above was vague and that caused misunderstandings from your side combined with the prejudice. You are arguing things that I never meant.

I remember very well what happened in Çözüm Süreci and I don't want same mistakes to be repeated. We should continue our military operations until PKK becomes practically "peaceful" meaning they no longer pose military threat to us.

BUT, that's still not going to be a total solution. A total solution requires a comprehensive and substantial approach that we haven't applied before.

Unfortunately I have very little hope for such solution as our nation and politicians are far from this level of maturity

If you face an enemy that is driven by a very clear Ideology that says its okay for him to kill you to achieve his goals, what do you do? You cant kill Ideologies, you can however kill those who follow them. They have a very clear cut goal and are willing to die for it. So simply let them.

No problem is completely solvable by killing others but at the end of the day it decreases the risk of being killed yourself. Unless the opposing force isn't convinces of their own defeat, they wont back down. And you don't do that by giving them Diplomacy, economy and education.

Did anyone offer to engage in diplomatic talks with isis? to hear them out on their "anti-imperialist" viewpoints? To let them be?

 

[Lool]

Are these rumors true?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1849429675912880224

 

[2033]

Are these rumors true?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1849429675912880224

Who tf cares about BRICS

It is a dysfunctional union that our politicians try to join to herd sheep.

 

[Isbara]

Are these rumors true?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1849429675912880224

China is a BRICS member. WTF ?