India HAL Tejas Program

Windchime

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If you want to sell LCA series of fighter jets abroad including 1A, 2 and AMCA then it is essential that HAL is privatized. Bureaucrats are bad salesmen. We already lost Malaysian contract in-spite of a superior aircraft. We are not sure yet about Argentinian and Egyptian contract.
I'm not sure if privatizing HAL would've won the contract.

Whenever I see any content about the Indian Defense Industry, all Indians say that defence companies must be privatized in the comments .I see there are some issues with bureaucracy but where does this neoliberalism come from?
If you dive a bit deeper into the Indian aerospace sector, you might understand where this is coming from. Currently HAL is like this giant elephant in the room who manufactures everything from some of the most trivial parts that goes into the aircraft, to components of subsystems, the subsystems themselves and finally the aircraft. Indian officials are also recognizing this problem and are trying to reduce the HAL workshare and instead are trying to outsource more parts, just like any other aerospace industries does around the world. They have also been trying to find a private sector partner for AMCA but I don't know where that is going right now.

There's privatization and there's neo-liberal over-privatization, I should say. Trying to privatize the Indian aerospace sector, at least a part of it has some definitive benefits. Of course it will need adequate management in the process of privatizing and getting private secotr more involved but that's a different kind of arguement to if the industry should be privatized or not. I'm also not necessarily agreeing about privatizing the whole of HAL. Apart from HAL, Indian aviation development mostly centers around ADA and other parts of DRDO so there's that. These institutions will not be privatized.
 
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Bürküt

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I'm not sure if privatizing HAL would've won the contract.


If you dive a bit deeper into the Indian aerospace sector, you might understand where this is coming from. Currently HAL is like this giant elephant in the room who manufactures everything from some of the most trivial parts that goes into the aircraft, to components of subsystems, the subsystems themselves and finally the aircraft. Indian officials are also recognizing this problem and are trying to reduce the HAL workshare and instead are trying to outsource more parts, just like any other aerospace industries does around the world. They have also been trying to find a private sector partner for AMCA but I don't know where that is going right now.

There's privatization and there's neo-liberal over-privatization, I should say. Trying to privatize the Indian aerospace sector, at least a part of it has some definitive benefits. Of course it will need adequate management in the process of privatizing and getting private secotr more involved but that's a different kind of arguement to if the industry should be privatized or not. I'm also not necessarily agreeing about privatizing the whole of HAL. Apart from HAL, Indian aviation development mostly centers around ADA and other parts of DRDO so there's that. These institutions will not be privatized.
It's more like seems that the relevant state institutions are not doing what is necessary.There is SSB in Türkiye to manage such caos.Who will be the main and sub contractors?Which systems can be produced in-country?What are the pros and cons of importing a subsystem?I don't think the main contractor's being private company will benefit in this case.
 
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Windchime

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It's more like seems that the relevant state institutions are not doing what is necessary.There is SSB in Türkiye to manage such caos.Who will be the main and sub contractors?Which systems can be produced in-country?What are the pros and cons of importing a subsystem?I don't think the main contractor's being private company will benefit in this case.
Yup. I think Indian members can give more insight to the problem, but to my understanding the program management by the responsible entities within the Indian government, MoD and their procurement agencies are not working that well.

The main contractor and system integrator for all future Indian aircraft will continue to be HAL. And once more, I am not arguing that the entirety of HAL, the primary contractor, should be privatized, unlike what some Indian people seem to think. Also by "outsourcing" I don't necessarily mean importing. That being said, it is often true that importing is cheaper and more competitive since established tier 2 and 3 suppliers around the world have better economics of scale since they are established.

The diagram below from an Indian paper illustrates what the problem is and you it might be easier to understand once you have a look.

Fa6UkSe.png
 

Nilgiri

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Whenever I see any content about the Indian Defense Industry, all Indians say that defence companies must be privatized in the comments .I see there are some issues with bureaucracy but where does this neoliberalism come from?

It is common way to easily explain Indian under performance during the cold war era and relative success after it.

i.e earlier state-autarky and suppression of private sector....versus this changing by expansion of the latter in current era.

HAL for example was a private company to begin with, it was nationalised in the 50s.

It is of course more nuanced subject to get into....compared to just saying privatisation is some panacea to fix every issue in every single case and context (rather than look at the causal issues one by one, taking into account key details and context)

Running with argument that state owned companies naturally tend to cultivate lower accountability by virtue of being a shielded monopoly..... a similar thing can also happen if its privately owned but also ends up being a monopoly (say in developing country with scarce capital for initial investment and key stark priorities and opportunity costs regarding the decision tree etc).

There needs to be exposure domestically (i.e other suppliers that compete with you) or internationally (other markets you compete with suppliers there to sell something) to have competition pressure kick in and become something you can then analyse.

So If HAL was simply a domestic market monopoly (in the era of cold war where India's relations with Western countries and their markets were beset by difficulties for various reasons), it would not have mattered much if HAL was public or privately owned IMO.

In the current era though I welcome privatisation given the way international relations and market exposure has been successful in various economic sectors for India....with caveat of there needing to be control on certain strategic technologies related to the collective interest w.r.t say defense given things that still need to mature and grow regarding trust and reliance.

So what windchime explains by that diagram is likely optimal route in current juncture and foreseeable future of current Indian GDP size and era of transition.

It is what we see with say ISRO and DRDO increasingly....so progress of this into aerospace more broadly will continue in this format in general rather than simple thing people say as "privatize everything" (and tend to shy away if it should be so with ISRO).

i.e having HAL say being like ISRO as the final strategic integrator (govt owned) and growing private supply chain to largest extent possible first in current growth stage.

Later on GDP and capability may mature more for maybe 2 separate privately owned + public listed pyramids (even at the apex)....and simply have ADA as the liaison and design agency for govt project requests. i.e something like a Boeing vs Lockmart etc.

More proven capability behind you and market size + maturity, the more one can generally trust and automatically leverage on the private sector with time....even at the apex.

That trust doesnt exist to degree needed early on so there is more scope for govt to occupy the apex in the interim.
 

Nilgiri

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What's the difference between Meteor's ramjet tech and Astra Mk3's solid-fuel ducted ramjet?

Essentially both are the same underlying technology. @Yasar has written up a post here regd SFDR:


You can use search strings in the forum like ramjet, ducted, meteor, astra etc to see some other convo chains here.
 

Gessler

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Astra BVRAAM integration trials have commenced!

Tejas LSP-7 conducted the first official test launch:

F4M54p8WQAAEgsC.jpeg
 

Afif

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